Do I need to study the classics?

[Songtsan]

...or can I aim for nonpsychological awareness, moment-to-moment being, no-self, stilling of the mind, etc. Mostly I am wondering if understanding hexagrams and what not is necessary or more efficacious...

[Green Tiger]

Perhaps you could try pharmacological perturbation of ordinary neurochemistry? I've heard the mystery can be perceived that way.

 

I guess it just depends.

 

'Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?'
'That depends a good deal on where you want to get to,' said the Cat.
'I don't much care where —' said Alice.
'Then it doesn't matter which way you go,' said the Cat

[Marblehead]

Hi Songtsan,

 

I will first ask your permission to respond to your opening post and question.

 

I do this as I think you might not like what I would say.

[JohnC]

I think it can be useful sometimes, but with the understanding that it was the ancient Chinese language, interpreted by someone who knows current the current language, then translated into another cultures language and understanding (english in our case).

 

So the information could be far from accurate.

 

John

[BaguaKicksAss]

What about the folks in say Tibet or India, who don`t know how to read?

 

Though they do get the benefit of a qualified teacher...

Edited January 17, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[Songtsan]

Hi Songtsan,

 

I will first ask your permission to respond to your opening post and question.

 

I do this as I think you might not like what I would say.

 

Go for it! I would like to hear as many takes as possible. You never need permission to respond to my posts.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Songtsan

[Songtsan]

It's not that I don't want to read the classics, btw - it's just that I am poor right now and there is so much information on here that is free. I should also state that I have extensively studied Theraveda and Mahayana Buddhism. I also have about 1000 pages of copied material from mostly BUddhist sources, but also some Taoist, Sufi, Gnostic, Vedantic, Tantric, and other sources - I have barely begun reading a smidgen of what I have on me....but I am really attracted to Taoist stuff and it is what I have the least of at this time (except for the fact that I read a lot of the material here of course)

Edited January 17, 2014 by Songtsan

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Read one page at a time. Too much information to absorb in a lifetime. Usually the important stuff sticks out and you just read those.

 

Agreed, more or less. I read until I come across something that needs more absorbing and application in life to really understand on a deep level. Given the depth of Daoist writings, I rarely get through more than about 4 pages before this happens.

 

It's sort of like seasoning on food though. It can give the principal ingredient (being/awareness) more spectrum of flavour, but it can also eliminate the beautiful natural flavour if overdone. And of course, don't just eat the spices!

[Songtsan]

Perhaps you could try pharmacological perturbation of ordinary neurochemistry? I've heard the mystery can be perceived that way.

 

I guess it just depends.

 

I already do this!

[Marblehead]

Go for it! I would like to hear as many takes as possible. You never need permission to respond to my posts.

Okay, here goes.

 

If you want to have an educated discussion of a particular subject with others then yes, you should study the Classics. This is the only condition where I would say that studying them is important.

 

If you are practicing a particular art then I see no reason to study the Classics because the source material you use for practicing will already include the important aspects of the Classics.

 

If you are practicing a martial arts the only thing that is important is that you learn the techniques.

 

As was mentioned above, if you are trying to learn the best way to live your life you don't need the Classics at all. There are many who have lived long and successful lifes who could not read or write. But common sense is important.

[Songtsan]

I guess I should rephrase my original question to say: "Should I learn about hexagrams?" This is one area I know not much about although I encounter it frequently here in TTB. I probably will study them eventually, but I have a lot of stuff on the burner right now.

[Marblehead]

Well, I know nothing about hexagrams and I'm not dead yet because of my lack of knowledge. Go figure.

[baiqi]

You should read the classics (especially the Yi jing)... if you have a taste for it!

 

You sound like you are interested, so, sure go for it!

Edited January 17, 2014 by baiqi

[idquest]

I guess I should rephrase my original question to say: "Should I learn about hexagrams?" This is one area I know not much about although I encounter it frequently here in TTB. I probably will study them eventually, but I have a lot of stuff on the burner right now.

You can if it helps you to systematize you perception of reality and the ways it changes. Otherwise they will be just funny lines.

[zerostao]

post #11 by MH +3.

@songtsan, if the hexagrams are resonating with you, first, look at the many attributes of the 8 trigrams, this is where all hexagrams arise from. read the Ten Wings. imo/ there is nothing more classic than the

I Ching,,,,,, having said that, re-read this from MH;

"As was mentioned above, if you are trying to learn the best way to live your life you don't need the Classics at all. There are many who have lived long and successful lifes who could not read or write. But common sense is important."

 

one does not taste Tao by reading books. they do offer some guidance but you have to experience it to know it. books can describe the taste of sugar to you but will you actually know what sugars tastes like without tasting it for yourself?

[Walker]

one does not taste Tao by reading books. they do offer some guidance but you have to experience it to know it. books can describe the taste of sugar to you but will you actually know what sugars tastes like without tasting it for yourself?

 

From one angle, this is true. But I don't think that the analogy is entirely useful.

 

Reading the classics can trigger inspiration--look carefully at what the word means. That is how I mean it. In other words, what I mean to say is that unusual experiences can and do arise both immediately during the reading of classics or much later, after a seed has been planted by what you read. Yes, sometimes you do taste the sugar when you read the classics.

 

I have read many spiritual books both ancient and modern in both English and Chinese. In every instance where I can recall "tasting the sugar," I was reading classics, not modern books. The language I was reading in did not seem to be of primary importance--translations can do the trick. But what was key every time was that I was reading classics. They are called sutras and jing for a reason. They are passed down generation after generation for a reason.

 

Being intellectual and pedantic for the sake of accumulating trinkets and treasures of knowledge or winning debates is not the way. But I would see be wary of those who tell you not to study the classics. There is great benefit to be had in exposing yourself to them, especially when you do so without goals and instead just let them speak to you. Great benefit.

 

For this reason one finds in some places that certain texts are deeply venerated. Tibetan Buddhists are very serious about this and if you travel to monasteries in Tibet you will see pilgrims literally crawling beneath bookshelves on all fours in spaces designed for this purpose. They are careful not to put anything on top of sutras. Even prayer beads, despite being religious objects themselves, are not meant to be placed on top of sutras. When on accidentally drops a sutra on the ground or notices that one has placed an object on top of a sutra, one is then, in this tradition, supposed to briefly touch the book to the top of one's head.

 

Those who have had no experience of what I'm alluding to will having trouble stomaching this, but I suggest you don't immediately write off the above as needless superstition or the quaint ornateness of an old culture.

 

Finally, some interpret certain lines in the Daodejing or Zhuangzi as telling us that we should not study, and perhaps imagine that in China reading was a pursuit of Confucians but not Daoists. While surely many illeterates have reached enlightenment and many intellectuals are trapped in mentation, be sure that textual study has always been a very important part of Daoist practice. After all, the Daodejing and Zhuangzi are books, right?

 

Again, read without goals.

 

Sometimes a single sentence is enough.

 

For very profound inspiration.

 

Or, as a Daoist might say, to activate shen.

[zerostao]

walker, excellent post. while walking my circle this morning, i did choose to take the angle that i did. i look at Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu as having handed us their thesis on the subject. i very much like "Again, read without goals."

you are right in that discovery can happen anytime and anywhere, even in a book. i am saying that without the books we can still make the same discovery. i am not saying that i have not read many classics myself. i prefer to learn out in raw nature but that is just me. i find that nature is the very source of inspiration.

[Walker]

you are right in that discovery can happen anytime and anywhere, even in a book. i am saying that without the books we can still make the same discovery. i am not saying that i have not read many classics myself. i prefer to learn out in raw nature but that is just me.

 

But I don't mean "even in a book." Wording it this way makes it seem as though books are a place where inspiration would not normally be found. I mean that the classics themselves have a certain power. After all, raw nature is everywhere, including language. How the Daoists and Mahayana Buddhists explain the origins of their texts attests to this. As does the experience of some of those who study books and experience a response--感应.

 

Not everybody's affinity, karma, and qi is such that they will resonate with books. Perhaps very few are this way, I don't know. But I would venture that anybody who has the ability to read does well to read the classics, even if just for a few minutes before bed.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Walker

[Marblehead]

I'm glad Walker made that post (#17). I sometimes (most-times) post from my own perspective only. And often there needs be a counter post or rebuttal to what I have said in order to maintain balance in what is being spoken about.

 

Thanks for joining in Walker.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Marblehead

[zerostao]

"Thanks for joining in Walker." ditto

 

i will add here for those that do not know, that i am a student of mythological and folklore studies. and i will say it like this> even in these mythic and folk tales, i find great inspiration, useful knowledge, and energies. there are some books that when i picked them up the energy (felt) was so strong and undeniable before i even began to read them,,,,,also sitting around the campfire and listening to narrative tales, those are some of my most enjoyable memories and experiences. i still stand by my remarks to songtsan, where he asked if he needed to study the classics, i say not necessarily, and to properly taste sugar you need to find wild sugar.

[zanshin]

Wild sugar, it's sort of an interesting example. Most here read sugar and think of something processed from a bag. Chewing raw sugar cane is not much like the taste of processed sugar. What we think is nature is not really the same as nature when the earth had a much sparser human population. I think some of the old classical writings and the hexagrams come from a time when people lived much closer to nature so in reading it can help to understand original nature and to recognize some wrong impressions.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I feel I should add that misconception seems to be the norm when it comes to following Daoist wisdom based on what people have heard about Daoist terms and concepts, like wu wei. When reading the classics it can become apparent that there are many approaches for different situations, and that these terms are often misunderstood, over-simplified, and de-contextualized. Reading the classics can help one to know when to put these approaches into place *at the right time, rather than seeing everything as a nail under one's proverbial platitude hammer.

[ChiDragon]

Songtsan.....
Chinese classics are most difficult to comprehend. Even though, you can read Chinese fluently, you are still not able to interpret the Classics. However, If you've learned the modern native language, it would be suffice to read the interpretation of the classics by the knowledgeable native scholars. Understand the hexagrams is not necessary or more efficacious. It is because the hexagrams are somewhat fictional and were designed for divination and Feng Shui3.

[Songtsan]

I really would like to read the classics anyways...I'll see what the library has first. I am very interested in "The World Upside Down" advertised in one of the banners here. It just might be a while before I actually get to them.

 

Thanks everybody!

[Marblehead]

Yes, do your reading if that is what your inspirations are drawing you to right now. Follow your inner "self".