How do you learn?

[ZenStatic]

Are most people on here self taught on things, or do you actually have teachers? I'm finding it a daunting task to actually find a teacher for taoism.

[林愛偉]

Are most people on here self taught on things, or do you actually have teachers? I'm finding it a daunting task to actually find a teacher for taoism.

 

 

Self taught is fine, but there must be a certification on your understanding. That is why it is best to have a wise knowing adviser, teacher available to assist you on your path of cultivation. I have had many teachers since my childhood. They come when I am ready for a new teaching, and go when I am done. It begins with meditation and a good vow for your practice.

To learn about Daoist cultivation, it is good to research on your own, some history of those who were high level cultivators, and their methods. Analize their methods and see how they can integrate in your life. A Taiji Quan teacher is not a Daoist master, so they will only bring a limited amount of knowledge int he Fine Arts, as we call it. You will need good guidance to sift through commercial teachings that are out there to get your money and lead you no where.

If you do it by yourself, keep in mind to find a teacher. You will need one to push you along your path. You may have one right under your nose and not realize it...and they will never tell you. The funny thing is, they may not always come in physical form. That is why meditaiton is a good fondation to begin with.

The best way to prepare for the meeting of a Daoist master is cultivation of meditation and changing your behavior/character. They look for restraint of behavior , good virure and moral in the person.

If you want to travel to them, that is good merit for you, and they will accept that dedication. You can go to Hawaii if you are serious in looking for a skilled master and go to the Tai Hsuan Foundation founded under Heavenly Master Chang Yi Hsiang of the Long Hu Shan Sect. Good points to look for in searching for a teacher is your own mind/conditions, and then the mannerisms of the master you are looking for. Though there are no set type of characteristics in a Daoist Master, there is a quality that is seen in their demeanor.

 

Have Fun.

 

Peace,

Aiwei

Edited July 2, 2007 by 林愛偉

[iadnon]

I agree, totally.

 

Anyway, I must say I haven't had a master "per se". When I was young I knew, intuitively, there was something more aside of the physical realm, so I looked for books on every subject about "inner work". I started up with parapsychologist, I moved on to witchery, then to astral projection related themes, and so on, till I had, so to say, a "whole" picture of the "inner".

 

I must admit your needs changes depending on what part of your life are. When I was a child I thought I was able to understand everything, and I was, but in another terms and with another viewpoint. Now that I'm 33, I have a more integrated viewpoint of everything, even if I know I'll need lives to complete the process -actually, I laugh of this, he, he, because in the past I was in a rush, and now I take it all easy-.

 

Along the path, I've found marvelous people. Some of them were friends, another ones books, another just post in the Internet... With this I mean life takes to you whatever you ask for, and in the precise time. If I look back I understand why some things have come later. If they would have come when I asked for them, I know I would have had troubles with them (as with astral projection, because I know that achieving that in the past would have become me an astral yonky, reducing my connection with the earth, so important in my windy mind).

 

So masters are important, but even a fly can be a master (sent by an archetype in response to a question of your mind). I mean, put aside that image of an old, long bearded, white tunic, man; because master are all around.

 

In many books I've read that when you really desire something, life's will give to you. So, and as I read about this technique, take a piece of paper and jot down:

 

1.Your good and bad aspects.

2.Your desires, structured according to their importance.

3.How your desires connect with your aspects, and vice versa.

4.How that affects your life.

5.What steps to take to move to the correct path.

6.And, finally, with your heart inflamed in desire and your mind in complete humility, ask life for the tools needed to achieve the previous points. And when you got them, be grateful, thank life for her help, and help others in the same way.

 

Those have been my main lessons so far: gratefulness, humility, trust in life and spiritual humor.

[buddabubba]

In My Humble Opinion -

 

 

You are your own best teacher, in the end.

 

All a teacher can do is help you teach yourself.

 

All reality will teach you if you let it.

 

Books and the internet, with your own discernment, are good friends if you can't find another further along the path...

 

Really listen to that small still voice inside, and be patient...

 

 

peace,

 

bodi

[josssshua]

Excluding formal education, all the things important in my life I actively searched out and taught myself.

[Yen Hui]

Are you familiar with the I Ching Oracle? If not, I would give some serious thought to cultivating a deep and

intimate acquaintance with it. It is stated within The Great Treatise that the Oracle is a time-tested and proven

means of accessing higher nature and wisdom; and it claims that it was by the "fourfold" use of the Oracle that

the Ancestors succeeded at the work of purifying their hearts and completely realizing their innate capacities.

 

There are several conditions that must be met, though, before you will have any real success with it. They are

delineated throughout The Treatise itself, and main body of the I Ching. One such condition is abstinence from

repeatedly asking the same question, over and over, which is a sure sign of unbelief. The Oracle may overlook

that fault in the beginning, but eventually will become silent if you persist. Another condition that must be met

is absolute sincerity in applying the counsel received. Failure to apply it is merely another sign of unbelief and

the Oracle will not tolerate such an attitude for very long.

 

There are several conditions, which I cannot mention at present, due to time constraints, but if you carefully

cultivate true sincerity and heart devotion, Heaven will be your guide and protector. Unify your will, govern

your thoughts wisely, cultivate silence and stillness, deep concentration, and the contemplative life, and the

Oracle will be to you a flowing fountain of eternal wisdom and high counsel, as though it were the Illustrious

Ancestor in the flesh!

[fatherpaul]

"how do you learn?"

 

without accumulation

by losing everyday

 

?

 

is there another way?

[林愛偉]

"how do you learn?"

 

without accumulation

by losing everyday

 

?

 

is there another way?

 

 

it is thus.

[beancurdturtle]

Roots are what supports a tree and give birth to the blossoms.

 

Start your un-learning at the root. Start with the Tao te Ching.

 

Problem is, the Tao te Ching is translated in a gazillion different ways. So find yourself 20 minutes uninterrupted and...

 

1. Go here: http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/Menu/Reader.html

 

2. In the second selection list from the left at the top labeled "[--> other languages ,--]," select "Merel 1". I recommend Merel as one of the several you will read because his interpolation is pretty neutral, and approachable from the perspective of a western mind.

 

3. In the box with all the numbers at the right/top, select the number 1.

 

4. Read Chapter 1.

 

5. In the second selection list from the left at the top labeled "[--> other languages ,--]," select another English translation. The selection will flip to the selected translation at the same chapter you selected in step 3.

 

6. Repeat step 5, four more times

 

7. You will be confused, don't over think, see if you can allow a basic concept of just that chapter to fruit in your mind. Don't write it down as it will change and come into focus for months and years to come.

 

8. Go on with your life, see if you can blend a bit of that concept into how you live.

 

9. Wait at least one day, and the next time you find yourself with 20 minutes uninterrupted, do steps 1 to 7 again. Select the next chapter (steps 3 and 4). Then blend the new concept, with the others you've learned, into your life.

 

10. Every once in a while jump back to a chapter you already did before and see how surprised and delighted you might be to see how your understanding has increased, and how it's meaning has shifted and focused.

 

There is no quick answer. This will take you more than three months to get through the whole Tao te Ching - and it should. Your mind needs to unlearn many things along the way.

 

After you've been through all 81 chapters, find yourself 20 minutes uninterrupted and...

 

1. See if any recent event reminded you of a chapter in the Tao te Ching.

 

2. Find that chapter.

 

3. Read a few translations again.

 

4. Allow your understanding of the values expressed in the chapter to clarify and become more relevant and meaningful for how you live.

 

5. Begin integrating what you are learning into how you live, eventually it becomes an unthinking way of living.

 

When you feel you have a good grasp on the Tao te Ching (probably 6 months at least), then read Zhuangzi. If Zhuangzi makes you laugh up a storm and clarifies the Tao te Ching - then you really are starting to get it.

 

If you try the I-Ching or some other practitioner's path before you understand the Tao te Ching, you may end up with the false impression that Taoism is only about practices, arts, and rituals. When at the core it's about how you live.

 

Start at the root, at the Tao te Ching. Then the practices and arts that have blossomed from the root - like taijichuan, I-Ching, Traditional Chinese Medicine, and so much more - will be immensely more fragrant.

 

At least that's my opinion.

 

Peace,

Edited July 3, 2007 by beancurdturtle

[Yen Hui]

Start at the root, at the Tao te Ching. Then the practices and arts that have blossomed from the root - like

taijichuan, I-Ching, Traditional Chinese Medicine, and so much more - will be immensely more fragrant.

The I Ching predates the Tao Te Ching, and Lao Tzu nurtured his philosophy on its teachings. That is a widely

accepted fact, to the best of my knowledge. I have never read or heard of any Taoist who disputed that. It is

certainly the viewpoint held by Wilhelm, as is stated within his own "standard" version of the I Ching; and he

certainly ranks as one of the 20th century's greatest I Ching masters. If you know better, I would appreciate

reading about your sources.

[beancurdturtle]

If you know better, I would appreciate reading about your sources.

I, without a doubt, don't know better.

 

My understanding is that the I-Ching is likely to be the oldest of the classics of Chinese literature. As such, it is not at it's core Taoist. Further, Taoist arts, practices, medicine, and so forth have a strong foundation in the concepts threaded through the I-Ching. Confucianism is also strongly grounded in concepts threaded through the I-Ching. It's probably fair to say that the I-Ching is neither Taoist nor Confucianist - but more an archetype for many ancient Chinese schools of thought.

 

The fact that Taoist practices, arts, and medicine are strongly influenced by the I-Ching can't really be argued if you are familiar with both. The fact that Confucianism is also strongly grounded in the I-Ching would be hard to argue against as well. However, it can be argued - and has been asserted by some scholars of ancient Chinese literature - that the fundamental Taoist morals and ways of living core to the Tao te Ching have little to do with the categorization, compartmentalization, and divination that is so much part of the I-Ching.

 

So I would again say; if you want to learn about Taoism, go to the seminal text that is the root of morals and way of life for a Taoist - the Tao te Ching. Then when you approach all the incredible things that have grown from the root - or provided shade and nourishment to the root - you will have a better foundation from which to understand them.

 

I can't think of anyone who would argue that a strong understanding of the core Taoist morals and way of life in the Tao te Ching would take anything away from the many beneficial arts, sciences, practices, traditions, etc. born of the I-Ching, Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism, and so forth. Which is the frosting and which is the cake could be argued all day long I suppose - with no resolution and to nobody's benefit.

 

Peace,

[Yen Hui]

My understanding is that the I-Ching is likely to be the oldest of the classics of Chinese literature.

Well, to be honest, the above sounds completely opposite to what you first posted; which was that the (art of

the) I Ching (by which I suspect you probably meant the art of divination,) grew out of the Tao Te Ching.

 

As such, it is not at it's core Taoist.

As previously intimated, it is widely accepted, if not universally so, that among all the sacred Chinese writings

predating the Tao Te Ching, the I Ching was Lao Tzu's primary source of inspiration. In light of that fact, would

you be so kind as to identify for us the "core" teachings of the I Ching, and demonstrate in which manner they

are foreign to the teachings of the Tao Te Ching, or - in your own words - how they are essentially not Taoist.

 

Further, Taoist arts, practices, medicine, and so forth have a strong foundation in the concepts threaded

through the I-Ching.

Agreed, though this point was never disputed in the first place.

 

Confucianism is also strongly grounded in concepts threaded through the I-Ching.

Again, this was not disputed either.

 

Until very recently, the oldest known surviving I Ching was decidedly Confucian in character, and included the

Ten Confucian Wings. These Ten Wings are marked, though, by a very clear and distinct Taoist influence; most

especially in the case of The Great Treatise itself. Master Hua Ching-Ni appears to attribute this to the influence

of Mencius, but I've read in several places that Confucius himself sought out Lao Tzu's guidance. Nevertheless,

Master Hua says that ...

 

"Mencius never mentioned the Taoist school in his writings, because he himself absorbed some teaching and

practice from the ancient teaching of Tao. So you can see that the other achieved Taoists at that time still

managed themselves with coolness and calmness: they stayed at the side and did not become involved with

the changing waves of popular Chinese society. " ( Entering the Tao, p. 5)

 

Now, regarding the various layers of the I Ching which predate the Confucian layer, Sinologists universally

agree they predate the Tao Te Ching. And I believe the oldest version of the I Ching currently known to us,

as the result of a fairly recent archeological find, is of a decidely Taoist character.

 

It's probably fair to say that the I-Ching is neither Taoist nor Confucianist - but more an archetype for many

ancient Chinese schools of thought.

Well, again, I understand what you're saying, and partly agree, but I'm inclined to state the matter differently,

by saying that since both Taoism and Confucianism are firmly rooted in the teachings of the I Ching, as you

have pointed out for us, they are essentially spiritual affinities and share the same core values. That is the

viewpoint of the Complete Reality School of Taoism, as noted in the four quotes below (two of which are fairly

lengthy):-

 

FOUR QUOTES ON THE ESSENTIAL UNITY OF TAOISM AND CONFUCIANISM:-

 

01 - " The dual cultivation of mind and body forms the foundation of Taoist, Buddhist, and Confucian spiritual

training. Some say that the Buddhists cultivate mind exclusively, the Taoists cultivate body exclusively, and

the Confucians are concerned only with building harmonious social relationships. They think that these paths

are incompatible because they don't understand the deep teachings of these three wisdom traditions.

 

"As far as I know, while Buddhists focus on cultivating mind (and recovering original nature), they have

secret teachings on cultivating the body. They emphasize cultivating the mind because they believe that it is

best for their followers to begin spiritual development by returning to the original mind and letting original

nature shine. The Taoists emphasize cultivating the body, but cultivating original mind is essential to their

teachings. They focus on cultivating the body because they believe that it is by recovering the original body

that the practioner can build a strong foundation for the root of life nd eventually attain original mind.

 

"If you attain the highest level of cultivating the mind but neglect the body, you won't be able to keep original

mind for long. If you can't keep the original mind, your cultivation will come to nothing and you won't be able

to transcend samsara. If you manage to reach the highest level of cultivating the body but neglect to cultivate

the mind, then the true energy of life cannot be held in the body for long. If you can't preserve the body, how

can you penetrate the secrets of the celestial, terrestrial, and human realms?

 

"The Buddhists have secret teachings on cultivating mind to attain life, entering the Western realm, and merging

with the void. On the other hand, the Taoists have teachings on how to cultivate the body to attain Nirvana and

be liberated from suffering in samsara. Buddhism and Taoism both have methods of single and paired cultivation

as well as techniques of spirit travel. The Buddhists, after reaching the state of Chan stillness, can send the

spirit out of the body through the top of the head. They have techniques that enable yin and yang to copulate

and male and female energies to interact. The Taoists also have techniques that reach the same goals.

 

"Consider this statement made by Lu Dongbin (i.e. Patriarch Lu, the Taoist Immortal): 'To cultivate the mind

exclusively at the expense of neglecting the body is the first mistake of spiritual practice.' And Zhang Ziyang

(i.e. Founder of the Southern Lineage of Complete Reality Taoism) said, 'If you understand original nature,

you won't throw away your life energy. And, if you practice the paired method of cultivation, you'll be able to

attain the great medicine, prevent the essence of life from dissipating, and become a realized being.'

 

"Attaining a deep state of absolute stillness, emptying the five senses, completing the pill and accomplishing its

great return (to the dantien), facing the wall for nine years, attaining omniscience at age sixty, and becoming

one with original nature at age seventy - these practices all require cultivating both body and mind. Only when

you have completed these stages of spiritual development can you enter the ultimate realm and merge with the

void. Both the Buddhists and Taoists agree on this.

 

"Bodhidharma once said, 'The three families - Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism - are built on the same

foundations. Don't think that mind and body are unrelated.' Body and mind must both be cultivated jointly,

and understanding the natures of qian and kun is the key to everything.

 

"If you understand the teachings of the three paths - Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism - you'll know that

they are not contradictory. They may use different techniques, but they all lead to the same goal. A great Taoist

teacher once said, 'Let me tell you about the three paths. When separate, they are three; when combined, they

are one.' If the Tao does not manifest itself through differentiation, the power of creation and transformation

cannot be realized. If after differentiation the aspects of the Tao cannot be merged again, then they cannot

return to the one source. Thus, the three paths build three types of foundations. Buddhism specializes in

recovering the original mind; Taoism specializes in building the foundation of life; and Confucianism focuses on

building a harmonious society. But, without original nature and original life, how can a harmonious society be

created?

 

"Many practioners of these three paths don't understand the essence of the teachings. They believe that

Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism are contrary paths. They inflate the differences and misrepresent the

teachings. They voice their opinions, criticize each other, and stir up conflicts among the Buddhist, Taoist,

and Confucian communities. The three spiritual traditions have spawned many illegitimate children who have

nothing but negative opinions of each other. These children don't understand that the three different paths lead

to the same goal. Unable to see beyond their own perspective, they are convinced that a path different from

theirs must be false. Such people need to look into the source of the traditions before they criticize or even

talk about other spiritual paths.

 

"In my opinion, there are three approaches but one source and one goal. In one path, life is recovered by

cultivating original nature; in the second path, original nature is attained by cultivating life; and in the third,

life and original mind are cultivated through building a harmonious society. Although these are three distinct

approaches, they all lead to the one undifferentiated source. Ponder this saying: 'When naughty children turn

off the lights, people will attack their own family.' " ( Holding Yin, Embracing Yang, pp. 154-156 )

 

02 - "There is a Confucian saying, 'Find out truth and fulfill human nature, thereby arriving at the destiny of

life; getting to the root of beginnings, returning to ends, knowledge encompasses myriad things.' This is

talking about knowing birth and death. What in Taoism is called the study of essence and life is actually

the true message of Confucianism, where it is called the study of human nature and destiny.

 

"Furthermore, when the ancient sage chieftain Fu Xi first wrote the I Ching signs, setting up teaching

embodying the celestial, using the Tao to develop people, there was no division into three teachings. Therefore

it is said, 'The Supreme Celestial has not two ways, sages have not two minds.'

 

"The first line drawn by Fu Xi represents the absolute. When there is one, then there are two; this represents

the two modes, one yang, one yin. 'One yin and one yang -- this is called the Tao.' Looking up, gazing at the

sky, Fu Xi wrote a line to represent heaven; looking down, examining the earth, he wrote a line to represent

earth. In between he wrote a line to represent humankind.

 

"Therefore three solid lines form the trigram HEAVEN, representing the 'three components' -- heaven, earth,

and humanity. Two HEAVENS seperated, making three broken lines, form EARTH, representing the six parts --

the members of the body and the directions of space.

 

"So it is said that the Tao establishing heaven is yin and yang, the Tao establishing earth is flexibility and

firmness, and the Tao establishing humankind is benevolence and justice. The three components each have

two aspects, so six lines form EARTH.

 

"Speaking in terms of the person, the Tao establishing heaven being yin and yang refers to the spirit and

energy of the mind; the Tao establishing earth being flexibility and firmness refers to the form and substances

of the body; the Tao establishing humankind being benevolence and justice refers to the essence and sense of

the will.

 

"Mind, body, and will are represented by the three components of HEAVEN; spirit, energy, essence, sence,

form, and substance are represented by the six parts of EARTH. This is what the I Ching means when it says,

'Find it afar in things, find it nearby in the body.' " ( Taoist Classics, Vol. 2, p. 388-389 )

 

03 - "Sages say the unique celestial design in one's being permeates the universe, including all philosophies

and religions and all things. This is like the Buddhist principle of nonabsoluteness of self, person, being, and

soul. It is also like the Taoist teaching of comprehending everything by comprehending one. In all of these

there is a pervasive unity." ( Taoist Classics, Vol. 2, p. 395 )

 

04 - "When Buddhists speak of true emptiness, Confucians of noncontrivance, and Taoists of spontaneity, all

are referring to embracing the fundamental, returning to the origin, and uniting with cosmic space. People

with fixations cannot know this Way that is permeated with unity." ( Taoist Classics, Vol. 2, p. 396 )

 

The fact that Taoist practices, arts, and medicine are strongly influenced by the I-Ching can't really be argued

if you are familiar with both. The fact that Confucianism is also strongly grounded in the I-Ching would be hard

to argue against as well. However, it can be argued - and has been asserted by some scholars of ancient

Chinese literature - that the fundamental Taoist morals and ways of living core to the Tao te Ching have little

to do with the categorization, compartmentalization, and divination that is so much part of the I-Ching.

While it is true that Taoists have been divided over the true value and place of the art of divination in Taoist

praxis, it is equally untrue to say the I Ching was not universally recieved by all Taoists as book of divine

wisdom. Wang Pi is, perhaps, the best and clearest example of this latter viewpoint. To be honest, though, I'm

not entirely sure what you're referring to when you speak of the "categorization" and "compartmentalization"

of the I Ching. Despite that particular obscurity, though, it strikes me as though you're basically saying the

core teachings of the I Ching are not in harmony with the core teachings of the Tao Te Ching. Such a position,

I believe, is completely untenable. But I have an open mind, if you care to try and demonstrate that.

 

If that were true, then it would also seem to imply the "Taoist practices, arts, and medicine," which you say

"are strongly influenced by the I-Ching," must "have little to do with the" "the fundamental Taoist morals and

ways of living core to the Tao te Ching."

 

So I would again say; if you want to learn about Taoism, go to the seminal text that is the root of morals and

way of life for a Taoist - the Tao te Ching. Then when you approach all the incredible things that have grown

from the root - or provided shade and nourishment to the root - you will have a better foundation from which

to understand them.

Well, I disagree. From what I know, the I Ching is seminal to the philosophy of the Tao Te Ching, not the other

way around; though there is no question in my mind that the teachings of the Tao Te Ching have definitely

influenced the Taoist interpretation of the I Ching, during the past two and half millennia. I view the Tao Te

Ching as a kind of general commentary on the teachings of the I Ching, which in itself can be a very obscure

and difficult text to penetrate. A thorough knowledge of the early Taoist classics, such as the Tao Te Ching,

first and foremost, backed by Lieh Tzu, Chuang Tzu, and Huainan Tzu, can only help us penetrate the deeper

layers and mysteries of the I Ching.

 

I do not dispute the fact that the Tao Te Ching is seminal to Taoist praxis, obviously. In fact, I would go so far

as to say every sincere Taoist should make a serious attempt to commit the entire text to memory, and recite

passages from it, as part of their daily practice. However, there is no question in my mind that it is youthful

folly (cf. Hexagram 4) for anyone sincerely aspiring to learn and practice a trully Taoist way of life, to limit

themselves to the study of just one classic text, whether that be the I Ching or otherwise! That was'nt what I

meant, but if that is how it came across, then I must apologize. I merely mentioned the I Ching because of its

practical use as an Oracle, for tapping into cosmic intelligence. The Tao Te Ching does not afford us the same

advantage, in that respect, obviously. Having said that, though, I fully respect that not all Taoists viewed the

Oracle in a favorable light, but many did and still do!

 

I've always been amazed by the profound wisdom and insight of the answers I've received from It. However,

I'm also able to fully understand a person's reluctance toward using it, since I too was reluctant for years, but

no longer. I cannot stress enough the benefits of the proper use of the Oracle, and I stress proper by those

Taoists who have not the benefit of the living counsel of a completely realized Taoist master. Within the heart

of every human being is the answer to every question they will ever ask. That is what I call "higher nature,"

"innate wisdom," "cosmic intelligence," and so on; and the Oracle is a time-tested and proven way of tapping

into that natural resource.

 

Peace,

Peace.

Edited July 4, 2007 by Yen Hui

[zenbrook]

Which is the frosting and which is the cake could be argued all day long I suppose - with no resolution and to nobody's benefit.

Brilliantly said, BCT. Though where'd be the fun in that?

 

Are most people on here self taught on things, or do you actually have teachers? I'm finding it a daunting task to actually find a teacher for taoism.

 

I think either/or/both/neither of the preceding posts' suggestions are valid approaches to take (along with all the others too). Perhaps it's simply the truth that there's no right or wrong way to go about being a Taoist - though traditionalists will certainly argue one way, academics another, modernists another, mavericks.... who knows? - the point is to do whatever is meaningful and useful to you, even if that approach is at the expense of others' interpretations.

 

Criticisms will likely be hurled with regard to this 'touchy-feely' or 'new-age' approach - often from those who feel they have a cultural heritage to defend (a viewpoint I have great sympathy with) - but that does nothing to diminish the point: it's your life, your path, and, yes.... your Tao.

 

Teachers can be really useful, but a good heart is worth more than the best of them. As my first teacher told me: 'any teacher is a tool - period. And some of your teachers will be bigger tools than others.'

 

Peace - and good luck exploring!!

ZenB

[beancurdturtle]

Well, again, I understand what you're saying, and partly agree, but I'm inclined to state the matter differently...

 

Peace,

Enough said then. That's the most I could expect - assuming I was expecting anything.

 

To me it seems (it's only my, perhaps incorrect, perception) that you dissect opinions - even largely in agreement with yours - to their tiniest minutia. Then bludgeon the minutia you disagree with to oblivion with volumes of argumentation that aims to prove your opinion of minor difference is the shining beacon of purest Tao. In doing so you validate the honestly admirable depth of your scholarly understanding of Chinese classics and philosophy. In doing so you prove that you've lost sight of the sweater for the tiny flecks lint.

 

I could be wrong in my perception of your multiple voluminous postings. However, if I am correct, it seems to me that better use of knowledge of Tao would be to find points of commonality and acceptance with the voices of other people who are integrating Tao in their lives. Then you might offer contributions aimed at deepening understanding rather than creating confrontation.

 

To be honest, your contributions are amazing in depth, accuracy, and detail. But in many cases your contributions seem to be focused towards confrontation and oneupsmanship. If you find my recommendation to lostmonk for learning about Tao and the steps for doing so to be bad advice - then just say so. Don't bother picking the lint of arguable and subjective points off the sweater, examine and criticize each ad infinitum, and obscure the warm fuzzy sweater of honest and reasonable advice.

 

By the way. I understand what you're saying, and largely agree, but I'm inclined to miss the motivation for argumentation.

 

Peace,

[Cameron]

Would be nice to cultivate more of a sense of appreciation for eachother on taobums rather than a competitive kind of energy.

 

Is Taoism about arguing and competition?

 

My feeling is we can all learn from eachother. I certainly know less about Taoism than many others on this board and am open to learning .I find it very interesting. But I also find other traditions like Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta, Sufism etc equally interesting.

 

I guess it can be fun to argue fine points about what this or that ancient philosopher said but wouldn't it be better to just enjoy eachothers wisdom and learn?

 

Like a Tao/Spiritual classroom with no teacher...mostly students..hehe.

[Oolong Rabbit]

Yen Hui,

 

It is obvious that you have an extremely well versed and thorough academic understanding of the chinese classics. Unfortunately, I fear that you are looking for confrontations where non exist. Perhaps solely for vain and egotistical reasons. To make an analogy, your posts read like a scientific analysis of a lovely wine. You elebaorate on the chemical compostion of the wine, geology of the soil, the aging and fermentation process, and ultimately arrive at the conclusion that the wine is likely to taste good. The analysis is interesting, but wouldn't it have been easier and more pleasurable to just take a drink?

[Spectrum]

Unlearning is learning.

 

The most profound things I have "learned" seemed to me realizations of evident knowledge forgot.

 

It seems to me a good teacher helps a student remember things they already know.

 

Spectrum

[beancurdturtle]

but wouldn't it be better to just enjoy eachothers wisdom and learn?

Yes. Someday I may even have a little wisdom to share.

[Cameron]

Unlearning is learning.

 

The most profound things I have "learned" seemed to me realizations of evident knowledge forgot.

 

It seems to me a good teacher helps a student remember things they already know.

 

Spectrum

 

 

Exactly.

[beancurdturtle]

Would be nice to cultivate more of a sense of appreciation for eachother on taobums rather than a competitive kind of energy.

Yes, it would be nice. I apologize if I seemed to be competitive or confrontational - it certainly wasn't my intent. My writing style is sometimes terse and impartial. No disrespect or insult was intended - and I hope none was taken..

[iadnon]

Competitiveness, in a correct measure, it's good. We knew you weren't insulting anyone, folk.

[Cameron]

Actually..to add to what some others on this thread have said.

 

The question for us so called spiritual people should not be how do you learn.

 

The question should be how do you unlearn?

 

I say meditation,self inquirey and study with an 'awake' teacher are the primary paths.

 

But there are probably many roads to truth.

[Cameron]

Yes, it would be nice. I apologize if I seemed to be competitive or confrontational - it certainly wasn't my intent. My writing style is sometimes terse and impartial. No disrespect or insult was intended - and I hope none was taken..

 

 

I think you have alot to share and agree with alot of the things you said. For example, you mentioned something about seperating cake from the frosting.

 

When I sat with one of my teachers a couple weeks ago I asked him does he have a 'recipe' for awakening. He said it's like if someone baked him a delicious cake with all the stuff(he explained it better and using his hands to illustrate) and spent all this time to make it he doesn't really care about all the work and all the ingredients that went into making it he just wants to eat it!

 

So, there may be a slight difference from the more philosopher way of thinking where you try to break things down and get an understanding and the more gut level-or heart level-way of being which is I think more about enjoying and living life.

 

It's nice to know how to make a nice cake and all the different characterics but it's probably even more important to be able to enjoy it!

 

But..maybe some people really enjoy studying things like I Ching with a passion and get a deep level of insight from it. I haven't even really gone deeply into I Ching to comment but would just leave space for it.

[mat black]

Unlearning is learning.

 

The most profound things I have "learned" seemed to me realizations of evident knowledge forgot.

 

It seems to me a good teacher helps a student remember things they already know.

 

Spectrum

[/quot

That's the essence of it all. Beautifully said

[freeform]

The question should be how do you unlearn?

 

Nice.

 

First is to notice what i 'know' - this is relatively easy - because in this case every person is your teacher. I notice when I make judgements about people, about actions, about circumstances - he's nice, that's difficult, they're so lucky to be rich, I'm worthless, they dont like her etc. etc.

 

Once I notice what I know I tend to see how it's expressed in my body - how does it feel inside to 'know' that he's nice? Usually there is some aspect of me that's represented by a specific body feeling (often in the midline of the body - where the chakras are meant to be).

 

Once I've got a realtionship with the part of me that causes the judgement, I explore - find out where the part came from, what does it really want for me beyond the surface judgements that it makes - ultimately, every part always wants completion/enlightenment for me - it's trying to help me even though it's in a state of separation... so I live out the story of the part, and let it experience unity - at that point it reaches its ultimate goal and integrates completely - no separation.

 

so it's not that I unlearn, I tend to explore the parts of me that want to learn/know/judge/control/be safe/be dangerous etc and I integrate them.

 

Every month I'm knowing less and less - I can still judge and know, but most of the time it's empty, it's more like an illusion I act out for people so they dont get too freaked out. Most people consider the type of thought process I'm aiming for (and have been getting more and more of) as rather boring - he has a red shirt, she's taller than me, his posture sttops forward, the leaves are brown, the table is wonky, she smells of sex, they are not friends, it tastes salty... this kind of 'knowing' is grounding, but grounding is boring for many.

 

Beyond that I'm aiming to have this kind of 'knowing' on a kinesthetic and visual levels, without resorting to inner dialogue...