How do you learn?

[rex]

How do we unlearn? By regular contact with the transpersonal and its integration in daily life. This implies vision, discipline, and diligence.

 

Some of the things we've learned are useful, so we wouldn't want to necessarily unlearn them. Perhaps they can be put in another context so they don't limit or condition us.

[Cameron]

How do we unlearn? By regular contact with the transpersonal and its integration in daily life. This implies vision, discipline, and diligence.

 

Some of the things we've learned are useful, so we wouldn't want to necessarily unlearn them. Perhaps they can be put in another context so they don't limit or condition us.

 

 

 

edit-I agree. I don't think your true nature is stupid. It probably empowers and makes you better at things you already know.

 

I think maybe a better way(for me)to look at it is a freeing up of conditioning rather than unlearning.

 

Unlearning implies things are forgotton. Perhaps things we don't need are forgotten with awakening but to say the conditioning/ego/illusion is seen through and freed up of it's confused/contracted energy seems more true.

 

But I don't know

[fatherpaul]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

now we have to learn to unlearn

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Cameron]

Father P-arch nemisis of mental constructs.

 

[iadnon]

For sure, before unlearning we must learn first. Have we learned everything we needed?

[Tao Parrot]

 

Once I've got a realtionship with the part of me that causes the judgement, I explore - find out where the part came from, what does it really want for me beyond the surface judgements that it makes - ultimately, every part always wants completion/enlightenment for me - it's trying to help me even though it's in a state of separation... so I live out the story of the part, and let it experience unity - at that point it reaches its ultimate goal and integrates completely - no separation.

 

 

Could you explain the "live out the story" and "experience unity" parts a bit more?

[Yen Hui]

Unlearning is learning.

Yes, Spectrum, I could not have said it better! Thank you. A teacher once told me that "losing, losing" meant

for him, in the light of his own direct experience, learning through or by way of the process of elimination. He

basically said that his head was literally full of false imaginings about the nature of reality, and that before he

was able to successfully cleanse himself of all these empty imaginings, he had to experimentally work through

them one by one, carefully sifting each.

 

The way he did that was fairly simple and uncomplicated, in my eyes, at least: By way of trial and error. He

did not allow himself to entertain or maintain thoughts about reality that could not be successfully practiced

and applied in real life. If he read something in the classics, he immediately put it into practice. Based on the

teaching of Hexagram One, a successful application was taken as a sign he had correctly understood; failed

application only meant he had'nt understood. What could not be tested in this manner was discarded by him,

almost immediately, as wasted energy.

 

The most profound things I have "learned" seemed to me realizations of evident knowledge forgot.

Life is an ever recurring natural cycle of learning and unlearning. We must empty the cup before we can refill

it. The purpose of our emptying our cup is to keep refilling it, and when we have unlearned, it is only so that

we may learn again, but only this next time, more completely penetrating into the reality or the source of life.

 

Learning and unlearning is a natural life cycle, constantly repeated all throughout life. According to the yin and

yang teaching, when unlearning reaches a point of fullness or completion, a transformation must occur. It is

only from the standpoint of this emptiness that one finally becomes Receptive to learning again. Penetration

into the mystery is a lot like remembering disconnected memories of reality, and reintegrating them back into

full consciousness.

 

It seems to me a good teacher helps a student remember things they already know.

And then to forget them all over again, that they may complete the cycle and penetrate even further into the

underlying reality. But when the forgetting eventually climaxes, and reaches a point of completion, what will

then happen? This practice of forgetting is what Chuang Tzu calls mental fasting; but what happens when the

fast has been completed? It is eventually broken and eating is temporarily resumed, at least until the next

appointed fast comes around, according to the circle of life which is completed in this manner.

[Yen Hui]

A teacher once told me that "losing, losing" meant for him, in the light of his own direct experience, learning

through or by way of the process of elimination. He basically said that his head was literally full of false

imaginings about the nature of reality, and that before he was able to successfully cleanse himself of all these

empty imaginings, he had to experimentally work through them one by one, carefully sifting each.

 

The way he did that was fairly simple and uncomplicated, in my eyes, at least: By way of trial and error. He

did not allow himself to entertain or maintain thoughts about reality that could not be successfully practiced

and applied in real life. If he read something in the classics, he immediately put it into practice. Based on the

teaching of Hexagram One, a successful application was taken as a sign he had correctly understood; failed

application only meant he had'nt understood. What could not be tested in this manner was discarded by him,

almost immediately, as wasted energy.

In this connection, or regard, he regularly quoted these four passages from the I Ching:-

 

01 - Hexagram 4 - Line 4

 

Six in the fourth place means:

Entangled folly bring humiliation.

 

"For youthful folly it is the most hopeless thing to entangle itself in empty imaginings. The more obstinately

it clings to such unreal fantasies, the more certainly will humiliation overtake it.

 

"Often the teacher, when confronted with such entangled folly, has no other course but to leave the fool to

himself for a time, not sparing him the humiliation that results. This is frequently the only means of rescue."

 

02 - Hexagram 52 - The Image

 

Mountains standing close together:

The image of KEEPING STILL.

Thus the superior man

Does not permit his thoughts

To go beyond his situation.

 

"The heart thinks constantly. This cannot be changed, but the movements of the heart--that is, a man's

thoughts--should restrict themselves to the immediate situation. All thinking that goes beyond this only

makes the heart sore."

 

03 - Hexagram 57 - Line 3

 

Repeated penetration. Humiliation.

 

"Penetrating reflection must not be pushed too far, lest it cripple the power of decision. After a matter has

been thoroughly pondered, it is essential to form a decision and to act. Repeated deliberation brings fresh

doubts and scruples, and thereby humiliation, because one shows oneself unable to act."

 

04 - The Great Treatise - Part 2 - Chapter 5

 

1. In the Changes it is said: "If a man is agitated in mind, and his thoughts go hither and thither, only those

friends on whom he fixes his conscious thoughts will follow."

 

The Master said: What need has nature of thoughts and care? In nature all things return to their common source

and are distributed along different paths; through one action, the fruits of a hundred thoughts are realized.

What need (has) nature of thought, of care?

[Yen Hui]

But when the forgetting eventually climaxes, and reaches a point of completion, what will then happen? This

practice of forgetting is what Chuang Tzu calls mental fasting; but what happens when the fast has been

completed? It is eventually broken and eating is temporarily resumed, at least until the next appointed fast

comes around, according to the circle of life which is completed in this manner.

01 - Hexagram 27 - The Image

 

At the foot of the mountain, thunder:

The image of PROVIDING NOURISHMENT.

Thus the superior man is careful of his words

And temperate in eating and drinking.

 

" 'God comes forth in the sign of the Arousing:' when in the spring the life forces stir again, all things come into

being anew. 'He brings to perfection in the sign of Keeping Still:' thus in the early spring, when the seeds fall to

earth, all things are made ready. This is an image of providing nourishment through movement and tranquillity.

The superior man takes it as a pattern for the nourishment and cultivation of his character. Words are a

movement going from within outward. Eating and drinking are movements from without inward. Both kinds

of movement can be modified by tranquillity. For tranquillity keeps the words that come out of the mouth

from exceeding proper measure, and keeps the food that goes into the mouth from exceeding its proper

measure. Thus character is cultivated. "

 

02 - Hexagram 15 - The Judgment

 

"It is the law of heaven to make fullness empty and to make full what is modest; when the sun is at its

zenith, it must, according to the law of heaven, turn toward its setting, and at its nadir it rises toward a new

dawn. In obedience to the same law, the moon when it is full begins to wane, and when empty of light it waxes

again. This heavenly law works itself out in the fates of men also. It is the law of earth to alter the full and to

contribute to the modest. High mountains are worn down by the waters, and the valleys are filled up."

 

03 - Hexagram 32 - Line 1

 

Seeking duration too hastily brings misfortune persistently.

Nothing that would further.

 

"Whatever endures can be created only gradually by long-continued work and careful reflection. In the same

sense Lao-tse says: "If we wish to compress something, we must first let it fully expand." He who

demands too much at once is acting precipitately, and because he attempts too much, he ends by succeeding

in nothing."

[Yen Hui]

If he read something in the classics, he immediately put it into practice. Based on the teaching of Hexagram

One, a successful application was taken as a sign he had correctly understood; failed application only meant

he had'nt understood. What could not be tested in this manner was discarded by him, almost immediately,

as wasted energy.

That's what he called "reality checking", or the practice of keeping our thoughts grounded in reality. He based

that philosophy largely on the following words or teachings of Hexagram 52 and The Treatise:-

 

Hexagram 52 - The Image

 

Mountains standing close together:

The image of KEEPING STILL.

Thus the superior man

Does not permit his thoughts

To go beyond his situation.

 

"The heart thinks constantly. This cannot be changed, but the movements of the heart--that is,

a man's thoughts--should restrict themselves to the immediate situation. All thinking that goes

beyond this only makes the heart sore."

 

04 - The Great Treatise - Part 2 - Chapter 5

 

1. In the Changes it is said: "If a man is agitated in mind, and his thoughts go hither and thither, only those

friends on whom he fixes his conscious thoughts will follow."

 

The Master said: What need has nature of thoughts and care? In nature all things return to their common

source and are distributed along different paths; through one action, the fruits of a hundred thoughts

are realized. What need (has) nature of thought, of care?

 

05 - Hexagram 32 - Line 1

 

Seeking duration too hastily brings misfortune persistently.

Nothing that would further.

 

"Whatever endures can be created only gradually by long-continued work and careful reflection. In the same

sense Lao-tse says: "If we wish to compress something, we must first let it fully expand." He who

demands too much at once is acting precipitately, and because he attempts too much, he ends by succeeding

in nothing."

06 - The Great Treatise - Part 2 - Chapter 5 - Continued

 

2. When the sun goes, the moon comes; when the moon goes, the sun comes. Sun and moon alternate; thus light

comes into existence. When cold goes, heat comes; when heat goes, cold comes. Cold and heat alternate, and thus

the year completes itself. The past contracts. The future expands. Contraction and expansion act upon each

other; hereby arises that which furthers.

 

3. The measuring worm draws itself together when it wants to stretch out. Dragons and snakes hibernate

in order to preserve life. Thus the penetration of a germinal thought into the mind promotes the working of the mind.

When this working furthers and brings peace to life, it elevates a man's nature.

 

4. Whatever goes beyond this indeed transcends all knowledge. When a man comprehends the divine and

understands the transformations, he lifts his nature to the level of the miraculous.

 

07 - Hexagram 52 - The Judgment

 

KEEPING STILL. Keeping his back still

So that he no longer feels his body.

He goes into his courtyard

And does not see his people.

No blame.

 

"True quiet means keeping still when the time has come to keep still, and going forward when the time has

come to go forward. In this way rest and movement are in agreement with the demands of the time, and thus

there is light in life.

 

"The hexagram signifies the end and the beginning of all movement. The back is named because in the back

are located all the nerve fibers that mediate movement. If the movement of these spinal nerves is brought to

a standstill, the ego, with its restlessness, disappears as it were. When a man has thus become calm, he may

turn to the outside world. He no longer sees in it the struggle and tumult of individual beings, and therefore

he has that true peace of mind which is needed for understanding the great laws of the universe and for

acting in harmony with them. Whoever acts from these deep levels makes no mistakes."

 

Please observe that the above text teaches us that inner peace is a necessary pre-requisite to the attainment

of the cosmic intelligence described above as "understanding the great laws of the" Tao. This understanding is

firmly rooted and grounded in daily application. Knowledge is solely for application and practice of the Tao, and

is abused if improperly used for anything else but. The inner quietude and peace of mind spoken of here comes

only by the strict purification of our heart, meaning the elimination of passions - as further confirmed in these

six other I Ching passages, immediately below:-

 

Six More Passages from Wilhelm's I Ching

 

01 - Hexagram 41 - The Image

 

At the foot of the mountain, the lake:

The image of DECREASE.

Thus the superior man controls his anger

And restrains his instincts.

 

"The lake at the foot of the mountain evaporates. In this way it decreases to the benefit of the mountain,

which is enriched by its moisture. The mountain stands as the symbol of stubborn strength that can harden

into anger. The lake is the symbol of unchecked gaiety that can develop into passionate drives at the

expense of the life forces. Therefore decrease is necessary; anger must be decreased by keeping still,

the instincts must be curbed by restriction. By this decrease of the lower powers of the psyche, the higher

aspects of the soul are enriched."

 

02 - Hexagram 43 - Line 2

 

A cry of alarm. Arms at evening and at night.

Fear nothing.

 

"Readiness is everything. Resolution is indissolubly bound up with caution. If an individual is careful and

keeps his wits about him, he need not become excited or alarmed. If he is watchful at all times, even before

danger is present, he is armed when danger approaches and need not be afraid. The superior man is on his

guard against what is not yet in sight and on the alert for what is not yet within hearing; therefore he dwells

in the midst of difficulties as though they did not exist. If a man develops his character, people submit to him

of their own accord. If reason triumphs, the passions withdraw of themselves. To be circumspect and not

to forget one's armor is the right way to security."

 

03 - Hexagram 16 - Line 2

 

Firm as a rock. Not a whole day.

Perseverance brings good fortune.

 

"This describes a person who does not allow himself to be misled by any illusions. While others are letting

themselves be dazzled by enthusiasm, he recognizes with perfect clarity the first signs of the time. Thus

he neither flatters those above nor neglects those beneath him; he is as firm as a rock. When the first sign of

discord appears, he knows the right moment for withdrawing and does not delay even for a day. Perseverance

in such conduct will bring good fortune. Confucius says about this line:

 

To know the seeds, that is divine indeed. In his association with those above him,

the superior man does not flatter. In his association with those beneath him, he is

not arrogant. For he knows the seeds. The seeds are the first imperceptible beginning

of movement, the first trace of good fortune (or misfortune) that shows itself. The

superior man perceives the seeds and immediately takes action. He does not wait

even a whole day. In the Book of Changes it is said: "Firm as a rock. Not a whole day.

Perseverance brings good fortune."

 

04 - Hexagram 46 - Line 5

 

Perseverance brings good fortune.

One pushes upward by steps.

 

"When a man is advancing farther and farther, it is important for him not to become intoxicated by success.

Precisely when he experiences great success it is necessary to remain sober and not to try to skip any

stages; he must go on slowly, step by step, as though hesitant. Only such calm, steady progress, overleaping

nothing, leads to the goal."

 

05 - Hexagram 16 - Line 1

 

Enthusiasm that expresses itself

Brings misfortune.

 

"A man in an inferior position has aristocratic connections about which he boasts enthusiastically. This

arrogance inevitably invites misfortune. Enthusiasm should never be an egotistic emotion; it is justified

only when it is a general feeling that unites one with others."

 

06 - Hexagram 58 - The Image

 

Lakes resting one on the other:

The image of THE JOYOUS.

Thus the superior man joins with his friends

For discussion and practice.

 

"A lake evaporates upward and thus gradually dries up; but when two lakes are joined they do not dry

up so readily, for one replenishes the other. It is the same in the field of knowledge. Knowledge should

be a refreshing and vitalizing force. It becomes so only through stimulating intercourse with congenial

friends with whom one holds discussion and practices application of the truths of life. In this way learning

becomes many-sided and takes on a cheerful lightness, whereas there is always something ponderous and

one-sided about the learning of the self-taught."

 

Are most people on here self taught on things, or do you actually have teachers? I'm finding it a daunting

task to actually find a teacher for taoism.

I suppose the meaning of "self-taught" depends largely on one's definition of "a teacher". In passage no.

six, of the above six quotes, the term "self-taught" denotes not just persons who are'nt closely linked to

a completely realized Taoist master, but even those who merely abstain from "stimulating intercourse with

congenial friends with whom one holds discussion and practices application of the truths of life." In that light,

the term "teacher" seems to have a much broader application, being extended even to disciples of the Way,

or practitioners of the Tao who act as a grounding and stabilizing force in our spiritual practice.

 

So, in this light, we may see that the "self-taught" person is not just one who has no "formal" Taoist master

to teach them, but one who cares less even for the "refreshing" and "stimulating intercourse" of other sincere

Taoists. Such persons are interested only in formal, dry-as-dust abstractions that merely confuse rather than

enlighten the heart and quicken the spirit. I feel the term "self-taught" may even apply, though, to any person

who claims to practice the Tao without any consideration at all given to the ancient Taoist writings of the sages.

 

There is a certain sense in which the term "self-made" or "self-taught" Taoist applies more to the person who

neglects the study of the ancient canonical writings - than to your solo "Intellectualist" who avidly studies the

sayings of great Antiquity, but cultivates no practice of keeping company with sincere practitioners of the Tao.

It seems to me, in my 'simpleton' way of viewing things, that the completely realized Taoist Masters have left

us writings to help those who specifically have not the benefit of their living instruction or that of any other

true master, in their our own right and generation.

 

To neglect taking advantage of their ancient writings is described by the I Ching as the attitude of 'Youthful

Folly'; which just wants to play around, and avoid at all costs the need to get serious about the disciplined

practice of the Tao. In the following and final quote, for now, it is implied that one of the principal reasons for

seeking out a "true" teacher of the Way is this critical factor called "discipline." Youthful Folly has no discipline,

without which complete realization is entirely unobtainable! Thus, it is an imperative for all those who have no

real teacher in the flesh - to oversee their cultivation practice - for them to seek out the close knit ties afforded

by a Taoist group of practitioners, as this will help them with their youthful lack of practical discipline.

 

Hexagram 4 - Line 1

 

To make a fool develop

It furthers one to apply discipline.

The fetters should be removed.

To go on in this way bring humiliation.

 

"Law is the beginning of education. Youth in its inexperience is inclined at first to take everything carelessly

and playfully. It must be shown the seriousness of life. A certain measure of taking oneself in hand, brought

about by strict discipline, is a good thing. He who plays with life never amounts to anything. However,

discipline should not degenerate into drill. Continuous drill has a humiliating effect and cripples a man's

powers."

[hagar]

Post edited

 

Are most people on here self taught on things, or do you actually have teachers? I'm finding it a daunting task to actually find a teacher for taoism.

 

In my personal experience, a teacher is vital.

 

With no teacher, you are like an astronaut, sitting in the space shuttle with only the blueprint of the shuttle itself. That's it.

 

With a teacher, you have the engineer who built it by you side, the flight trainer, and the coordinates of where you are going.

 

Without a teacher, you may know you want to go into orbit, and return to earth, nothing more. With a teacher you will actually be taught how. With a teacher you may actually get the shuttle off the ground, into orbit safely, and finally land safely without burning up in the atmosphere.

 

h

Edited July 9, 2007 by hagar

[iadnon]

Hagar:

 

There are inner teachers, too. Those who guide pupils from upwards through feelings, telepathy, and so. For sure, those who are here to learn intuition's power function that way.

 

Telling someone he needs a physical teacher will be a blockage if he doesn't find him.

[hagar]

I understand your point.

 

From my perspective, it is very rare that people have both the capacity, dicipline, and "talent" to do this without guidance from an actual physical teacher. In some cases, you may receive guidance or information directly from insubstantial sources, but most often, this information is received partially or interpreted in a completely distorted way. Very often, being "self-taught" generates the problem of arrogance towards the blind spots and weakness in your cultivation. Take Darin Hamels case as an example.

 

My point is not that you should rely on an external teacher. It is a part of the "skillfull means" of cultivation. After a certain stage, the teacher should be left behind and you should rely on yourself. The objective of cultivation is self-reliance, in all areas of life. If the teacher becomes your dictate, you dishonour your teacher and the lineage he represents.

 

Finally, having a teacher is by far the saftest way throught advanced stages of cultivation. Many extremely subtle things can go wrong at a high level, and then you waste years of effort.

It also makes you humble, and undermines the danger of spiritual pride or materialism, like displaying your "gong" missing the point completely.

 

A good teacher will always tell you that the true master in the internal master.

 

h

[iadnon]

I understand you.

 

But, fortunately, nowadays there are a lot of books about inner stuff. If someone from upwards wants you to learn/practice something, he/she will make the book get to you, for example.

 

I pinpoint that book thing because it has been my main path in this life. I've not met any physical teacher, but I know my inner guide has sent me those books.

 

The most important one for me, "The inner guide meditation" by Ed Steinbrecher, came to me one day I was walking on a street the way home. I used not to go through that part of the city, but that day I did. Suddenly I felt an urge to enter into a bookstore I hated. I got into it and I found the mentioned book.

 

I put in practice what it said and I met my guide. I followed a meditation practice and my entire life blew up. Intuitively, I knew that was going to happen, and aligning my inner forces made it happen. I was surrounded by blockages I needed to break up.

 

That's my little story. I trust my inner guide and I work with him. My intuition has strengthened and my fear to life's ups and downs has faded away and I laugh of them.

 

Maybe one day my inner guide will lead a physical guide come to me. For now, I doubt it. But who knows. Even a flower can be a guide in a certain stage of your life.

[fatherpaul]

if you are learning to build a boat

find the best boatbuilder you can

and study him until you surpass his talents

 

if you are learning about the tao

then study yourself, for it is there

you are the only expert on you

[freeform]

if you are learning to build a boat

find the best boatbuilder you can

and study him until you surpass his talents

 

if you are learning about the tao

then study yourself, for it is there

you are the only expert on you

 

 

how about being with other experts of themselves?

[fatherpaul]

how about being with other experts of themselves?

 

 

and what would you do with them?

[freeform]

and what would you do with them?

 

not much - just be with them.

 

musicians might jam - realised humans might just be still... together...

 

When you're in nature and you see a great view - what would you do with it?

[林愛偉]

THis mental fasting of Zhuangzi (Chuang Zi) is for detachment of the personal desire for things. Once there is a full letting go, putting down of the personal attachments, the use of them is only for the sake of the body...keeping form. Nothing more.

This is where...JUST ENOUGH comes in. There are the uses of things worldy, but the desire for them is non existent. This is what Zhuangzi meant there. Having to use those things over again does not depict a cycle of ny kind... only points to the true function of things in this world. To be used for the time they are used, and put down during the times not being used. No personal attachment for it clouds the mind.

 

Peace,

Aiwei

[fatherpaul]

it is so

as lin says

too much is not good

too little is not good

 

when there is just enough

this is good

for then there is no want or striving

[beancurdturtle]

you are the only expert on you

and therefore the best person

to forget what we "know" about ourselves

[Cameron]

I was thinking about this today and I think Adyashanti summed it up best(for me)when he said that in wordly life you want to get a PhD and in awakening you want to go back to kindergarden.

 

In wordly stuff..getting a job..a degree..a master's degree..becoming a doctor,lawyer,artist,musician etc you want to become as much of an expert as you can. You learn things. You learn and develop knowledge in a certian field.

 

In awakening it's almost exactly the opposite..you want to go back to kindergarden..you want to regain the innocent awareness of the child..return to simplicity. The universe and enlightenment play by different rules.

 

The whole basis of true meditation and awakening seems to come from a recognition when you really take a look you don't know. When it comes to the really important stuff you don't know.

 

So it's more like starting to be honest with yourself. Do I know who I am? Do I know if I really exist? Do I know what life is really?

 

As far as the teacher stuff..I definetly think good teachers can help you awaken to your natural state but the really good ones will tell you after you have done that how it's all a sham.

 

Of course it's not all a sham..I think the teacher student realationship and study is a pretty important part of awakening. I went for a long time on my own without teachers and got some taste but I think the presence of the teacher just speeds things up.

 

Sure, at an ultimate level we don't need the teacher but if you look at pretty much any enlightened guy after the Buddha they all had there teacher.

 

The real question arises in me why would you not want to study with an awakened teacher? It would just seem to be missing a crucial element to the whole process.

 

But if awakening without a teacher and not needing a teacher is your reality nothing wrong with that either I guess.

[Ian]

I think it may be like this:

 

You've got a metaphorical path. The teacher can't move your legs along it, but can direct you back on to it if you're veering off sideways. That way you spend more time on it and progress faster, but it's still you doing it.

 

And sometimes a teacher can tell you that your path is imaginary and heading for a big cliff.

 

Actually, I don't know what the hell teachers do!!

 

But I have heard it said, by a teacher I greatly respect, that if a spiritual teacher does more good than harm he or she is doing very well indeed. Which gives me to wonder....

[fatherpaul]

drop what you think you know

and allow intelligence to awaken

[Yen Hui]

- realised humans might just be still... together...

They realize stillness in movement, and movement in stillness.

 

When you're in nature and you see a great view - what would you do with it?

When you're in harmony with the Tao, and are aware of a flurry of flowery fist(s) in your way,

what would you do with those? Move with the grace and power of the Tao, without ever losing

your correct center-point. In doing nothing, realized people are capable of doing all things.