Starjumper Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) Edited January 20, 2014 by Starjumper 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) These guys know tai chi principles better than most tai chi players. It also has a lot of aspects of Yueng Chuan. Edited January 20, 2014 by Starjumper 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) This is just like my martial art of Yueng Chuan, which also relies completely on 'tai chi' principles. I wonder if you would have noticed the neck breaks if I didn't mention it? Edited January 20, 2014 by Starjumper 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 20, 2014 Oooo! Someone who knows what he is talking about. I agree totally with him: do not go down! Only if you know how to fight down there and it is in a competition - never for self-defence! Usually , as he says, strike the back of the head or knee to the face as they come in. You can fight from the ground but not on the ground i.e. but never 'lock up' down there - spherical awareness at all times. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted January 20, 2014 These guys know tai chi principles better than most tai chi players. It also has a lot of aspects of Yueng Chuan. Saw this video before, and I've never seen Systema style resemble Taiji fajin so much. I'm pretty sure this teacher is hiding some Taiji under his sleeves. Probably the same with post #3 and push-hands. I'd be surprised if they didn't learn some Taiji at some point in their martial arts studies. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 20, 2014 These guys know tai chi principles better than most tai chi players. It also has a lot of aspects of Yueng Chuan. Errr ... self defence against knives .... I think one is better off; Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustBHappy Posted January 20, 2014 BJJ style takedowns are not as much of an issue as watching mma would have you believe. Remember, in mma there are gloves and rules while in the street/home you fight for your life with no rules.All the bjj style takedowns put the attackers head right there for you. They cannot do this type of takedown and not expose their head, it's impossible. Practice a few simple techniques and forget about the arms. The opponent is throwing his head right at you, it's like christmas if you are ready. Either striking or simple twisting techniques work fine. Striking is harder since the targets are moving so it's much easier to train and drill into muscle memory a simple grab and unscrew. Be extremely careful with your training partner, it doesn't take much to really hurt someones neck/spine, do it slowly and only twist a small amount. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted January 20, 2014 Or learn how to fight like this: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) yes, too many train for self defence in the gym or dojo and by those rules. One BJJ guy showed me a lock I couldn't get out of (regardless of the fact that I allowed him to get me down first - as he was a self-confident kid - I decided not press the point; "okay, I am down, now what?") ... I noticed his ankle was right there in my face so I latched my teeth on either side of his Achilles tendon and gave just a little squeeze ... he freaked out and said that was 'dirty' . I told him "You forgot to lock up my teeth and nails". I dont know how many times I interrupted a technique by a head but or rolled down from a standing lock take-down and as they were on their way to ground after me and simply lifted my leg for a big toe kick into the eye ... and none of it was pre-meditated ... hey, you presented the target, I just took the obvious opportunity. And ya know what ... I got told so many times "We dont do that in this style - its against the rules ..." PS. I wasnt flogging people or hurting them by the way, I had to learn moving and rolling focus and control, - that is something I really respect. (One guy followed me all the way down, through a roll with the point of a tanto at my throat and never hurt me. I gave him a formal bow (and much respect after that!) he was a 'novice' - so the club thought - but he was well versed in one of those medieval battle groups. Why did they think he was a novice? Because he was restricted by them in what he was allowed to do in the dojo. Edited January 20, 2014 by Nungali 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 20, 2014 Or learn how to fight like this: Impressive control flexibility and balance ... but he isnt fighting is he...he is 'dancing with the air' ... as we used to call it. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted January 20, 2014 Trying take someone down who naturally fights from the level your trying to "surprise" them at though, when they're rooted and able to redirect you as if you came at them standing up - that's the difference. Not saying he's undefeatable... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted January 20, 2014 Saw this video before, and I've never seen Systema style resemble Taiji fajin so much. I'm pretty sure this teacher is hiding some Taiji under his sleeves. Probably the same with post #3 and push-hands. I'd be surprised if they didn't learn some Taiji at some point in their martial arts studies. Systema is older than tai chi is said to be, but then the principles of tai chi are also older than tai chi is said to be. =) Systema and Yueng Chuan both originated in the Tien Shan mountains around 3800 years ago. Originally probably one and the same, Systema went West into Russia via the Cossacks and what is now known as Yueng Chuan went East into China. Tai chi probably devolved from those earlier systems after Taoism was officially invented ? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) Trying take someone down who naturally fights from the level your trying to "surprise" them at though, when they're rooted and able to redirect you as if you came at them standing up - that's the difference. Not saying he's undefeatable...Yes, thats true ... it can even have an advantage against sword. ... as long as you can move around quickly down there. One guy (infamous brawler in real situations) I know of goes straight to ground, but he is always turning and has good spherical awareness (he was also the safety officer on a few jobs I worked on ) but he never locks up, it's damage and then he's gone ... poof! Then he is somewhere else. One time on a job (out on location, in a 'strange' town ) after work there was a fight in the bar. He comes out of the 'lounge' and goes "Who is disturbing my gambling and drinking?" Half the bar - (our) guys immediately stop and put there heads down and shuffle back to their table. The ring-leader of the locals looks at him and goes "Who the f*** are you!" A chorus of voices goes up : "hey man, dont say that .... no no no ... come back to the bar and I will buy you a beer" all from the guys who had just been fighting him So yeah ,,, there are exceptions ... but dont lock up down there ,,, Edited January 20, 2014 by Nungali 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted January 20, 2014 And ya know what ... I got told so many times "We dont do that in this style - its against the rules ..." PS. I wasnt flogging people or hurting them by the way, I had to learn moving and rolling focus and control, - that is something I really respect. (One guy followed me all the way down, through a roll with the point of a tanto at my throat and never hurt me. I gave him a formal bow (and much respect after that!) he was a 'novice' - so the club thought - but he was well versed in one of those medieval battle groups. Why did they think he was a novice? Because he was restricted by them in what he was allowed to do in the dojo. Well, there's martial arts that are sports, and then there's self defense. What blew my mind was when I watched a MMA match and saw the lumbering lumoxes just stand there and let themselves be tackled. What my response would probably be to a tackle in a dangerous situation is to explode the attacker's kidneys with hammer punches as I yield. It seems that should be easy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 20, 2014 Even in MMA one guy that kept winning time and time again would just fling both legs back, go for a reverse front headlock (that is, as their head came in he would just bend down over it and reach around their neck with his arm ) and then fall forward on to him ... urrk!!!A mate of mine that did old school Ju-jitsu gets me with takedowns easy ... but NOT like that, he waits for me to attack, evades, gets off line, tangles me up and then 'falls on me' ... point of elbow first (or some ohter horrible thing) and he is a big heavy guy!Dont let em grab you ! keep back, use whipping and stining strikes to their extensions , dont let them get close enough for a body hit and dont kick unless you have lightening retraction ... or, they present the target .... IMO (I;m glad he was a friend and did it 'nicely' 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chenplayer Posted January 20, 2014 Would like to put my two cents in. I have fought in Japan in full contact karate (kyokushin), and now I train bjj with Marcelo Garcia and let me tell you it easier said then done avoiding the take down. Bjj guys don't just shoot the use arm drags, judo throws there is many ways on engagement. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted January 20, 2014 A mate of mine that did old school Ju-jitsu gets me with takedowns easy ... but NOT like that, he waits for me to attack, evades, gets off line, tangles me up and then 'falls on me' ... point of elbow first (or some ohter horrible thing) and he is a big heavy guy! That's like Yueng Chuan. Sure, if someone attacks you it's easy to make them go down ... and then to fall on them hard with a knee to the belly. Then it's easy to stand back up ... for the defender. Dont let em grab you ! keep back, use whipping and stining strikes to their extensions , dont let them get close enough for a body hit and dont kick unless you have lightening retraction ... or, they present the target .... IMO (I;m glad he was a friend and did it 'nicely' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chenplayer Posted January 20, 2014 Also funny story had a guy bite me once when I was arm barring him surprising how you stop biting when your arm is broken. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted January 20, 2014 Would like to put my two cents in. I have fought in Japan in full contact karate (kyokushin), and now I train bjj with Marcelo Garcia and let me tell you it easier said then done avoiding the take down. Bjj guys don't just shoot the use arm drags, judo throws there is many ways on engagement. That was good. It looks like the tai chi guy might have a neck break around the one minute point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chenplayer Posted January 20, 2014 Yeah you could technically but the problem with neck breaks just like any technique is that you have to do them in order to get good at them. That's why Judo, Bjj, Muay Thai, some Chen tai chi guys, Some bagua guys like Serge Augier, train live sparring. You have to use it in pressure situations. Also as you can see both Bjj guy and Taichi guy were more friendly sparring than anything. In bjj first thing you learn is how to get out of that headlock, but it's not very friendly. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted January 20, 2014 Yes, it was nice and friendly there. I think friendly favors BJJ? I'm interested in seeing how to get out of that kind of a neck lock, keep in mind a neck break just takes a second. I mainly practice twisting neck breaks with standing attackers, it's easy once you get behind them, which is also easy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chenplayer Posted January 20, 2014 We'll from side control you can place your forearm on the hinge of the jaw and jus press down with your weight. Also you have to realize the necks of most judo guys and bjj guys are built like tanks from all the neck grabbing and chokes. The muscles around the necks of the top levels guys are unreal. Also since I am also in med school breaking ones neck from twisting it is very very hard. Just like when Muay Thai guys or karate guys break those bats with their legs but can't break legs like that is because where are designed with all or muscles and tendons to resist things like that. Out neck muscle even untrained are very hard and resistant when put under pressure. Forget when adrenalin kicks in you become super man. Lol. That why you aim for easier targets to hurt with minimum power. Also friendly or no friendly both serve bjj we'll. just like taijiquan you go with the flow you can either be passive or very aggressive. It's your choice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted January 20, 2014 Starjumper, any links about Yueng Chuan? Would be great see videos of Fook Yueng. Some interesting information about his relationship with Bruce Lee here: http://yeungchuan.blogspot.ca/2007/12/small-history-of-fook-yueng.html Interesting about Tien Shan. I see that Systema goes back to the 9th century, and I see what you mean about the connection with Tien Shan and Yeung Chuan if Yeung Chaun "is synthesized from over 160 martial art styles and Tien Shan Mountain Chi Kung" (see link above). This interview is interesting too: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chenplayer Posted January 20, 2014 That's why elbow locks and knee locks do so much damage. We don't have tons of muscles there since all the fine movement, cartilage, ect. Neck has tons of muscle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chenplayer Posted January 20, 2014 http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20793 http://www.sherdog.com/news/interviews/6-Questions-for-Rickson-Gracie-36352 http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=15753&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=0670a10629ebee02f3f5e1159b657a86&start=30 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
