Avoiding takedowns & then ... other videos.

[Friend]

I looked it up and recognized the first scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH6x0wghOzs

 

The girl that does the last demonstration in the first scene is Wang Jurong, daughter of Wang Ziping who was mythologized in Deng Ming Dao's "Chronicles of the Dao." I'll have to watch this later. Looks like a good story (as much as I can't stand overdubs).

You forget something, Jenny Lamb (Yi Gong) also is in this movie.

Here I remember because of this:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/21131-sifu-jenny-lamb-lecture-clip-great/#entry303042

[chenplayer]

I understand Starjumper I am the ever learning student, I would also thank you for your imput and sharing of information this is how the martial arts community grows and as it grows we grow as people. You seem to be very grounded and a plaesure to talk too as the rest of the fine posters in this thread. I am very happy it did not turn out to be this is better than that!!! lol. You have all made my day!!!

 

I extend my hand to you as a kung fu brother in a sign of freindship.

[Starjumper]

Thanks Chenplayer

 

I would also thank you for your imput and sharing of information this is how the martial arts community grows and as it grows we grow as people.

 

Actually there are techniques that we don't want the martial arts community to see, to even know they exist, because if they do they can develop tactics against it, which then would make it more dangerous for us. These things also commonly include nasty ways of harming people. I don't think that if more people knew those things that it would contribute too much personal or comunity growth.

 

The tai chi versus BJJ is different though. First off, the two arts are different in a fundamental way. Tai chi is all about no rules. There are no rules to prevent you from harming the other person, in fact the idea is that you do harm them, and right away, as soon as they move. Due to this there aren't tai chi tournaments or fighting against one another.

 

Push hands is only a training exercise, the main goal is to teach you to redirect incoming force, meaning it teaches you how to deal with an incoming punch. Another purpose of push hands is for tai chi players to see who is better without killing each other; because there are the rules in place to hopefully prevent injury just like with the more sport like martial arts.

 

It appears to me, from the little I know about Jiu Jitsu, that although they can also do harm to people, that it isn't an instant kind of thing but favors grappling and ground fighting with the intent to control and subdue the other. Of course the locks could be joint breaks and the chokes could be killers in BJJ too, right, but taking it to the ground first takes much more time and is therefore inefficient.

 

In push hands you touch arms in order to sense what the other person is doing, but you never let them touch your body or grab you. Trying to grab a good tai chi person is like trying to catch a greased pig, they will slip out of it every time. It is impossible to grab a tai chi master or adept in push hands, and if the attempt includes force then they would be deflected off to the side, pulled forward off balance, or bounced back. (Pushing, in tai chi fighting, is used for slamming the person against a brick wall or oncoming bus).

 

I've seen two of the top tai chi players battle it out in push hands, they were directed to do so by our teacher Tchoung Ta Tchen, and it looked pretty brutal, it was very fast, and they were not just pushing at each others arms like beginners do. It was attempted serious grappling, but neither one was able to get a grab on the other as they both kept slipping out of them as soon as they appeared. It was fast, and it wasn't gentle.

 

Now, in the video we see that the tai chi guy is allowing himself to be grabbed by the BJJ guy, so he is breaking the #1 rule for push hands. Therefor in addition to giving up on all the striking and kicking and hard push/bashing that tai chi has, which is 90% of tai chi, he is also breaking the main rule in push hands, so he's giving up about 90% of the remaining 10% too.

 

You could say that the BJJ is giving up a bunch too, by not trying a surprise fast attack to the legs like in MMA, but he probably knew if he tried that he would be put down.

 

So the way I see it is that for fighting, not sports, that tai chi has the goal of eliminating the threat instantly by using harm, while BJJ has the goal of controlling a person on the ground to subdue them.

 

I don't know, you'll have to tell me. In your BJJ school is it more about eliminating threats or is it more about sport? Do you spend most of your time working on things for the ring or for the street?

 

Another thing that is a no no in the internal arts is sparring with rules, that's because training with rules that are designed to keep you from hurting the other are teaching you to do self defense incorrectly.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Starjumper

[chenplayer]

We work about 50/50 in my school especially in the beginning. We Learn to dodge punches while getting in close and "sticking" to our opponent. We learn how to get out of head locks or surprise behind chokes. I was taught a cool pressure point on the jaw to help release a strong grip. Then of course we get into drills and ground type stuffs. It depends on the school I guess. But what I love above all else is when you try all these things it's from live resistance you learn on the job so to speak and I find that most valuable of all.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

You forget something, Jenny Lamb (Yi Gong) also is in this movie.

Here I remember because of this:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/21131-sifu-jenny-lamb-lecture-clip-great/#entry303042

 

Ah, you're right. I was confusing the two for some reason. Thanks for the correction.

 

And remember - careful what you read on the internet, lol.

 

 

Here's some footage of Wang Liping and Wang Jurong then

 

[Starjumper]

Next thing is if one goes into the Selfdefense pose it serves as Fence

which is covered defense posture or as attack posture which as gesture

function as to say keep distance, calm down which is giving one favour in

the eyes of withnesses.

 

That's what we do in Yueng Chuan, and tai chi too. Mr. Yueng was really into wing chun and tai chi both, but the special energy of Yueng Chuan comes from Tien Shan chi kung.

 

You hold your hands up in a defensive posture, which is a fake out because it's the same as a boxing posture except with hands open, and they can be closed fast =), and tell them not to come any closer. It's best to not let an aggressor get any closer than 7 feet because if closer you can't react fast enough to defend yourself. Telling them to not come any closer and saying you're scared, and then when hitting them yell help help puts on a nice show. Spectators eat that stuff up and hardly see what you did.

 

Also takedowns never occur on such distance as those who use it know the dangers.

So using provocation and sneaking near than kicking distance and then attack.

Also it happens in seconds so one may miss the the momentum.

 

In general, what should be done if a person (in this case someone who wants to tackle you) gets inside your seven foot safety zone is what you see in this video from the 5 to 18 second marks http://youtu.be/07fHaka3eXs

Notice how he does this from about seven feet away. As you can tell this is different from ring fighting where they stand toe to toe, you don't let them get that close.

 

For those who don't like punching, cuz they might hurt their hand, like me, you use the same method but with open hand as you see in this video from the 36 to 49 second marks http://youtu.be/hXphvGJoacM

 

But well.... takedowns are very vulnerable against rabbit punches

and forward sideway step with turn against the back of the head is kind of deadly if

the perfomer can precisley hit C1. There is no need of so many chain punches.

Each punch should be deadly. (But well Ng Mui had Iron Palm.... )

 

Some fajin to the kidneys as they approach should make them feel differently about continuing: and with elbow, you don't need to hit C1 like the Krav maga video. I think a hard elbow hit to the ribs in the right place would break one, not sure . If it were me I would go for plan A, the seven foot leap of faith like in the videos, or B, hammer fists to the kidneys as they came in low.

 

edited to correct times on video

Edited January 25, 2014 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

I looked it up and recognized the first scene: http://youtu.be/zH6x0wghOzs The girl that does the last demonstration in the first scene is Wang Jurong, daughter of Wang Ziping who was mythologized in Deng Ming Dao's "Chronicles of the Dao." I'll have to watch this later. Looks like a good story (as much as I can't stand overdubs).

 

I liked those videos you posted, and the Wang Ziping connection is cool, those books were formative in my evolution. I agree about the voices, it was nice in Chinese with subtitles, and since it's low resolution you might not see the other fajin in it which is at the end of the first scene when Dong Fang Xu stomps his foot and breaks the brick in the ground, which impressed the old master.

 

That video you had of the guy doing fajin showed that he knew what he was doing, I wonder why you removed it.

 

edit, I found it :

 

http://youtu.be/4NCLIjWhCTU

Edited January 25, 2014 by Starjumper

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I liked those videos you posted, and the Wang Ziping connection is cool, those books were formative in my evolution.

 

I guess I wasn't too clear in my last post - I was confusing Jenny Lamb being in a movie with one of of Wang's descendants being in a movie.

 

I did some searching and figured out why that was - it was actually Wang Jurong's daughter, Helen Wu, who I was thinking of. Maybe around the same time I saw the Jenny Lamb video I was looking into Helen Wu, who, little did I know when attending University, taught at my alma mater. Helen Wu had a short scene in an episode of The Highlander. My memory can do funny things sometimes lol.

 

 

"Chronicles of the Dao" was also an exciting find for me. Probably all of the events in it took place at some point in time, so it is true in a way, even though fictitious. Deng Ming Dao is a great writer/teacher, whatever his methods.. I've read a few good books by him (not to change topics.....).

[Dragon X]

Thanx Every One this has been most enjoyable topic.......................