The Inner Alchemy of the Acana Arcanorum vs. Neidan

[Nathan]

Dear Bums,

 

Greetings,

 

In the Rite of Arcana Arcanorum there is a 40 day operation to reach "immortality"(A.'.A.'.). This Rite is commonly attached to the various systems of esoteric Freemasonry known as the Rites of Misraim / Memphis. According to "occult history" this Rite is ultimately derived from the Temple of Isis at Naples, Italy which has existed openly and in secret for thousands of years.

 

I notice many similarities and yet some differences between the A.'.A.'. and what is described by the Secret of the Golden Flower for instance. In the western inner alchemical methods are included: Fasting, the uses of herbs, tinctures, and seclusion. Ritual bathes, and breathing excercises. The ultimate aim of the A.'.A.'. is to rebuild the "light body" thereby attaining an immortality of the consciousness after the mortal coil falls away. The A.'.A.'.draws heavily from Lamblicus and the Theory of the Vehicle of Soul, as well as certain Pythagorean doctrinal views.

 

This attainment of "immortality" is common to both Western (A.'.A.'.) and Eastern (Neidan) methods. Both are used to develop the light body aka: chi, aka: prana. Where the two systems differ from my viewpoint, are in that the Western systems use a great deal of allegory and symbolism, not allowing the neophyte to directly know the methods or ultimate aim until the very pinnacle, whereas with the Eastern systems it seems that they "cut straight to-the-chase" from the very beginning.

Does anyone else have experience in both systems? And how do you think they compare to each other in similarity, or differences? Do you think one system influenced the other? How and why?

Thanks.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

That's an interesting post good sir.

 

To which I can only add, er, yes I agree.

 

Fasting, the uses of herbs, tinctures, and seclusion. Ritual baths, and breathing excercises.

 

Those were my habits for many years actually, together with meditation and study of the religious and philosophical classics, and what I considered humble but potentially spiritually fruitful work. And other practices which remain amongst my wizardly secrets ha ha ha.

 

So I don't have "experience with either system" really, but I know a little.

 

And intuit a great deal.

 

I'm still looking to learn though.

...

[Nathan]

I think the Silk Road has many untold stories to tell. The more I experience other cultures, and societies the more I see similarities and not differences. What intrigues me, is the openness and acceptance of "esotericism" in the East, as opposed to the West, where it is much more cloak-and-dagger. I think both have their plus' and minus', but I favor a more open, and direct method. I've read that Taoism was influenced by the Nestorians, and possibly the Thomasine Christians and vice-a-versa. It's interesting that the Tao is the same name given to Gnostic Christianity in it's beginning, aka "The Way." Unfortunately, Christianity, as well as, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, et al. have become overly dogmatic. Not that there's anything wrong with that, just that it's not the right approach for me. Taoism, it certainly is.

[Taomeow]

Dear Bums,

 

Greetings,

 

In the Rite of Arcana Arcanorum there is a 40 day operation to reach "immortality"(A.'.A.'.). This Rite is commonly attached to the various systems of esoteric Freemasonry known as the Rites of Misraim / Memphis. According to "occult history" this Rite is ultimately derived from the Temple of Isis at Naples, Italy which has existed openly and in secret for thousands of years.

 

I notice many similarities and yet some differences between the A.'.A.'. and what is described by the Secret of the Golden Flower for instance. In the western inner alchemical methods are included: Fasting, the uses of herbs, tinctures, and seclusion. Ritual bathes, and breathing excercises. The ultimate aim of the A.'.A.'. is to rebuild the "light body" thereby attaining an immortality of the consciousness after the mortal coil falls away. The A.'.A.'.draws heavily from Lamblicus and the Theory of the Vehicle of Soul, as well as certain Pythagorean doctrinal views.

 

This attainment of "immortality" is common to both Western (A.'.A.'.) and Eastern (Neidan) methods. Both are used to develop the light body aka: chi, aka: prana. Where the two systems differ from my viewpoint, are in that the Western systems use a great deal of allegory and symbolism, not allowing the neophyte to directly know the methods or ultimate aim until the very pinnacle, whereas with the Eastern systems it seems that they "cut straight to-the-chase" from the very beginning.

 

Does anyone else have experience in both systems? And how do you think they compare to each other in similarity, or differences? Do you think one system influenced the other? How and why?

 

Thanks.

 

The famous Chinese novel "Journey to the West" describes a journey from China to India. So, "Western" and "Eastern" would have to be detailed a bit before we can compare them. To a taoist, prana is a Western idea. So is a light body that develops "after the mortal coil falls away." Taoists of the old school are not big on drawing a sharp demarcation line between the body and the soul, nor view the body as an inferior or lower manifestation of existence. It is comprised of light and darkness -- and the moment it loses the darkness, it loses the tao and acquires a Western Luciferian paradigm.

 

The methods are similar here and there because the material they work with is similar (to say nothing of the shared proto-sources) -- a human being, plants, animals, earth and heaven, stars and planets, etc. etc.. But all similarities end when you compare the goals. Western systems are en route to a "destination," the ultimate something or other -- pure this or that -- the highest at that, never level with wherever everyone else is, invariably on top, up there, away from here, from this earth. Taoist systems are "moving to and fro" so as to blend in with the tao and emulate her ways -- tao-in-stillness followed by tao-in-motion, the high and the low, high becoming low, low becoming high, and the like.

 

Stars come down and become emperor's ministers. Ministers rule wisely and get promoted to gods. Gods who rest on the laurels and start slacking, forgetting their earthly roots and people who depend on them, get demoted and thrown away. Taoist immortality is thrilling, almost a soap opera.

 

Western -- I dunno... So you become pure light, you've arrived, you can frame your diploma and hang it on your wall of pure light, all the way on top of the pyramid of pure light, the highest of them all so you can't climb up any higher... and now what?.. Eternal more of the same?..

Edited January 20, 2014 by Taomeow

[Nathan]

Taomenow,

 

This is exactly what I was looking for in response. Thank you. I'm hear to learn and grow. I come with years of "baggage" which I do not view as absolute truth, but simply indoctrination or education that I've been exposed to in this life. It is natural for this to become a hindrance when learning something new. I find myself when learning about the Tao, saying: "Oh, that's like such-and-such in Western systems. Old dogs and tricks, etc. Very nice response.

[exorcist_1699]

Nathan's comparison are , regrettably , superficial and just repeating those conventional ideas. He ignores Taoist demands , which represent the most important argument from the East , on both spiritual and physical proof when talking about immortality ( BOTH spiritual and physical ) . Such an emphasize on physical proofs makes Taoism close to science, which also makes it free from the trap of mysticism that no other religions/ systems of thought can avoid.

In the practice towards immortality ,Taoist Neidan talks about things such as the capability of eating less and less, an abrupt change of our way of breathing , fixing loosen teeth, change of the color of our feces and blood, our sweating becoming less and less..etc , and their corresponding spiritual changes , all are so unique that hardly any system , even the Indian , can cover them so detailed , so deep.

When talking about the spiritual proof, Taoism emphasize the difference between nourishing a Yin spirit and a Yang Spirit despite both of them can be refined to exist outside our body; it also talks about those steps, symptoms (say , " snow falling from the sky" ) and precautions ( say , " splitting another Spirit as a safeguard for the body") for our Yang Spirit (Shen) in its process of leaving the body that even the Tibetan Buddhist preaching can hardly match.

Maybe I sound a little harsh, but the Eastern achievement, mainly Taoist, in anti-aging , in attaining immortality ,are in fact unmatchable ; on the other hand, although the Chinese invent the compass, the printing , the gunpowder , the missile..., their dislike of separating the object from the subject, analyzing and rendering things to their smallest units , abstracting their reasoning into strange symbols and doing tedious calculations... all makes them go astray from the road towards something we now call it science.

Edited January 21, 2014 by exorcist_1699

[soaring crane]

"whereas with the Eastern systems it seems that they "cut straight to-the-chase" from the very beginning."

 

Is that really true? Or is it just the western interpreters who make it seem that way?

 

Could one of the demarcations of Daoist methods be the experiential nature of the practices compared to faith-based approaches in virtually all other (belief-) systems?

Edited January 21, 2014 by soaring crane

[Nathan]

 

Nathan's comparison are , regrettably , superficial and just repeating those conventional ideas. He ignores Taoist demands , which represent the most important argument from the East , on both spiritual and physical proof when talking about immortality ( BOTH spiritual and physical ) . Such an emphasize on physical proofs makes Taoism close to science, which also makes it free from the trap of mysticism that no other religions/ systems of thought can avoid.

In the practice towards immortality ,Taoist Neidan talks about things such as the capability of eating less and less, an abrupt change of our way of breathing , fixing loosen teeth, change of the color of our feces and blood, our sweating becoming less and less..etc , and their corresponding spiritual changes , all are so unique that hardly any system , even the Indian , can cover them so detailed , so deep.

When talking about the spiritual proof, Taoism emphasize the difference between nourishing a Yin spirit and a Yang Spirit despite both of them can be refined to exist outside our body; it also talks about those steps, symptoms (say , " snow falling from the sky" ) and precautions ( say , " splitting another Spirit as a safeguard for the body") for our Yang Spirit (Shen) in its process of leaving the body that even the Tibetan Buddhist preaching can hardly match.

Maybe I sound a little harsh, but the Eastern achievement, mainly Taoist, in anti-aging , in attaining immortality ,are in fact unmatchable ; on the other hand, although the Chinese invent the compass, the printing , the gunpowder , the missile..., their dislike of separating the object from the subject, analyzing and rendering things to their smallest units , abstracting their reasoning into strange symbols and doing tedious calculations... all makes them go astray from the road towards something we now call it science.

 

Perhaps they are superficial. But what better way to learn than to leave one's thoughts, however flawed, open to criticism, and correction? In the Western philosophical milieu, there's a great reliance on the "Socratic method." Whereby one's statement is not necessarily attached to the ultimate truth, and the statement giver holds no personal attachment to the statement made, in the name of the truth. Thereby what is true, or most true, can be distillated via the debate. I welcome such criticism. Thank you.

 

"whereas with the Eastern systems it seems that they "cut straight to-the-chase" from the very beginning."

 

Is that really true? Or is it just the western interpreters who make it seem that way?

 

Could one of the demarcations of Daoist methods be the experiential nature of the practices compared to faith-based approaches in virtually all other (belief-) systems?

 

Is it true? That's a good question. "Blinds" abound in all systems. However, from my limited experience, it seems that Taoism (not necessarily individual Taoists) place less reliance on blind faith, and more reliance on experimental knowledge. In the Western sense, this would be termed "the left-hand path."

 

One thing that I personally find for certain, is that there's a great deal less stigma involved with Eastern metaphysics, as opposed to the Western versions found hidden in secret, due to a history of the rack and flame. This has influenced the egregore of Western systems a great deal. Hence, a very cloak and dagger approach by many authentic Western systems.

[exorcist_1699]

Perhaps they are superficial. But what better way to learn than to leave one's thoughts, however flawed, open to criticism, and correction? In the Western philosophical milieu, there's a great reliance on the "Socratic method." Whereby one's statement is not necessarily attached to the ultimate truth, and the statement giver holds no personal attachment to the statement made, in the name of the truth. Thereby what is true, or most true, can be distillated via the debate. I welcome such criticism. Thank you.

 

Thank you for your openness. In fact, I am occasionally lazy to write my own post and choose to make use of other member's , which by accident meets my point of view to elaborate something in more detail ; so there is nothing personal , nor should it be viewed as my deliberately targeting at someone...

Anyway, when we read the Taoist writings, let say the famous " Preaching of masters Chung and Lu" ( 鍾呂傳道集) , we always find quite a typical style as follows : First, the masters talk about the principles underlying the practice, then they tell you the ways and the physical outcomes , as proofs, after your having practiced these ways..

Why mention the physical symptoms on the body? why not the spiritual aspects ? Simply because they are the least disputable : A smoothening of a deep wrinkle on our face or a rebirth of a fallen tooth is so explicit that hardly can people argue against it . Besides, shouldn't the simple proof of immortality start from our capability of reversing aging ?

Maybe at first look , it seems Taoist Neidan also uses some kinds of digits or diagrams, and says that they are magical, for example , saying Fire is 2 , Earth is 5 ..etc, yet it is really a cloak somewhat deliberately made to cover what really talk about are Jing , Qi, Shen ..which unfortunately does confuse many people .

Edited January 22, 2014 by exorcist_1699

[安永樂]

---

Edited August 22, 2019 by 安永樂

[exorcist_1699]

The crucial question though is how many practitioners of neidan and Daoist alchemy (inner and/or outer) in the last 200 years have been able to full rejuvenate themselves having a fresh set of teeth, jet-black hair, smooth skin, the vigour of a teenager and living more than 100 or 150 years?

 

Of how many such people have you personally heard? How many of them lived in the 20th century or live in the 21st century? They must exist - ergo, where are they?

--------------------------------

 

Thank you for your questions. Although I know many instances of what you ask , I don't want to go through them here for even I raise them in detail , people will still challenge them and raise doubts in this or that way... after all, it is personal experiences , those proofs, that persuade people most . So, to be candid, besides the ' Spirit leaving body ' part , most mentioned are mainly from personal experiences...

After hearing that, even I continue to boast of how many volumes of Dao Zhan( 道蔵 ) and Buddhist Sutras that I ever read, people here will still blame me : Why you carelessly believe and preach that part/ level you have not experienced/reached?

My argument is that if all Taoist preaching about Jing and Qi meet my past experiences, then why the masters cheat me or why they exaggerate in the final part / higher level?

In addition, sometime you need to believe in your own theoretical insight ....and, Taoist theory is a coherent system , I mean , on some occasions it looks like a scientific system ; let me explain : if you know that the gravitational force of the moon is just around 1/6 of our earth's, then before the US astronauts ever walked on it , you should already have imagined the approximate manners of how their bounce around ; if you later hear the Chinese astronauts claim about their success in walking on the moon , but moving like a heavy gorilla , you of course can laugh at them..

Similarly , if you are told that Qi exists everywhere , inside and outside of us , and in our body , it is Qi's existence that make our spirit ( shen) alive , then you should have a theoretical sense to reason that a refined spirit , with all the essence (Jing + Qi) absorbed in it, should get the possibility of living outside of our body ( ie, nourished by external Qi) ....

In fact, the capabilities of eating less and less, sleeping less and less , stopping our breathing at our own will ..bit by bit , don't they already point to us the growing strength of this Qi+shen , and its capacity of shaking off those biological shackles gradually , to become more independent ?

Edited January 23, 2014 by exorcist_1699

[NotVoid]

Hi Exorcist_1699. I am wondering, what is your experience with internal alchemy practice? Are you practicing under a teacher, or have you just learned from books and writings?

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

In fact, the capabilities of eating less and less, sleeping less and less , stopping our breathing at our own will ..bit by bit , don't they already point to us the growing strength of this Qi+shen , and its capacity of shaking off those biological shackles gradually , to become more independent ?

 

I would have to agree.

 

The proof of the pudding.

...

[Aeran]

Is it true? That's a good question. "Blinds" abound in all systems. However, from my limited experience, it seems that Taoism (not necessarily individual Taoists) place less reliance on blind faith, and more reliance on experimental knowledge. In the Western sense, this would be termed "the left-hand path."

 

I'm gonna have to disagree, the distinction between 'right hand path' and 'left hand path' has absolutely nothing to do with how evidence based a practice or system is or isn't.

[Nathan]

The left and right hand path dichotomy is a very hard one to pin down. Some systems use both. However, it is not true that one is "good" and the other is "bad." Tantra for instance is Left hand path work, and thats precisely the context I used Taoism in, when I described it thus, as it correlates.

 

What is your definition? You say you disagree, but do not provide a rebutal? It really doesnt matter. It was a small point made that has little bearing on the topic at hand.

[Aeran]

You're right that it is a vague and not very useful division, I'm just saying that the degree to which a practice is faith v. evidence based has nothing to do with it either way.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

The concept of faith is a subtle one.

 

I don't like the phrase "blind faith."

 

Faith as "anti science," impervious to the evidence of the senses.

 

On the other hand, I know what you mean.

 

We can study in order to seek to manipulate the cosmic order for the specific purposes of the magician.

 

I suppose this might be considered left hand path.

 

Or one can undertake work of a more devotional nature, seeking self improvement and the wisdom to know the right path, and act in alignment with the higher will, God, or buddha nature.

 

And that might be right hand?

 

I'm not sure, I'm just ruminating.

 

But the left always acts in service of the right, even when it does so unconsciously.

 

And evil is always hoist by its own petard.

...

[exorcist_1699]

Hi Exorcist_1699. I am wondering, what is your experience with internal alchemy practice? Are you practicing under a teacher, or have you just learned from books and writings?

 

Hardly do my teachers appear to me as any physical forms, they mostly come upon me as some kinds of apocalyptic inspirations in my meditation , my half-sleeping or reading of the classics :-)

Although my way is not so common , it is not exceptional in Taoist history ; there are several records of similar cases..

Edited January 29, 2014 by exorcist_1699

[NotVoid]

 

Hardly do my teachers appear to me as any physical forms, they mostly come upon me as some kinds of apocalyptic inspirations in my meditation , being half-sleeping or reading of the classics :-)

Although my way is not so common , it is not that rare in Taoist history ; after all there are few records of similar cases..

 

I see. If you are progressing so far with no major issues then I guess this can't be so bad.

I appreciate your comments on internal alchemy...