What is desire?

[Stosh]

I see how you may see it that way. How can desire exist; if what we desire what isn't there? So from that my thought process considered that desire is merely masked as our need to control the future. I know you cannot control the future. I'm asking someone to prove the desires exist so I can refute that argument. What you see me as is relative to your understanding; therefore as much as I try I cannot refute such a statement.

The controling the future portion was intended merely as a clarification, the meat was that your desire exists and its evidenced by the fact that you pursue SOMETHING which gets called desire..Without the motivation of some kind of desire What the heck COULD you do ? Sneeze?

[dee]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by dee

[Stosh]

*cough* , okay so in your opinion desires are something that we actively participate in and pursue? I want you to define it for me so I can refute it. I'm hoping now one is taking this matter personally. I just want to get to the bottom of this; and see it as it is so I/we can better understand "desire" and how it affects us. Plus I'd like to write about it; so I want to hear other peoples views/standpoints on the subject.

I dont get it ,are you looking for a elaborated "argument" as material for a refutation?

If I thought it my argument ,,ultimately would be solidly refutable,,

I would try to figure the correction out for myself ,

not present it to TTBs as if I was falsely secure about its foundation.

But, Ok , Ill try to make one for you to attack , I just need to think on it a while.

[Marblehead]

This only is applying for people who have desires in life.

But what I'm trying to ask is; is a desire a desire or is it because we are not aware that we are trying to control an outcome (which is what we now call desire, but is actually the need for control)? I hope that makes sense.

Yes, that made sense.

 

And yes, the element of wanting to control does exist within all desires. But I will still suggest that the desire arises first and then we devise ways to control the outcome of events so that our desires are satisfied.

[Stosh]

Here’s my quickie summation , which has plenty of meat on its bones to pick at (by virtue of being a quickie) but I consider it essentially solid. Bon appetite

 

Figuratively speaking , there is a world of the subjective and a world of the objective , the objective is the stuff which can be corroborated – it might be called material , and the subjective is stuff that can only be experienced by an individual AS an individual -it might be called mental.

 

The mental has effects in the material world , when we do things intentionally, like move muscles we have control over. And the material has effects in the mental world, as in, drug use.

 

So all these things exist,, if you say either world exists.. and by general usage of the world we assume at least something exists therefore all does exist .

 

Everything we experience of the material world is filtered through the mechanisms of our senses , neither you nor I ,can see ultraviolet light but such is out there anyway, you cant see it so effectively it is ‘filtered’ out of your perceptions. This ultraviolet we can still infer by its effects , we get sunburned.

 

Similarly our desires – our motivations , are things which are inferred , and are known to exist because we do things as a result of them , they are a reaching out , an attempt at embrace , a means to include, the essence of what we are with whatever we believe is OUT THERE.

 

Our retreat from that which is out there , due to unpleasant events, could also be considered a desire in the form of a return to a state of grace or satisfaction or peace or whatever.

 

Desires are real, but must be inferred , they are the means by which we come into accord with the universe, and that which divides us from perfect grace.

[dee]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by dee

[dee]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by dee

[Stosh]

Thank you! You've answered me question. Yes I would go as far as first what we have are desires (an outcome) and afterwards we devise a plan inside our minds to control the future to make the desire happen.

 

 

Thanks for the long explanation. Marbleheads comment made more sense as I feel it addressed the issue better; and have concluded it to my response to him.

Ok, then Ill leave it in Mhs capable hands.

[dee]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by dee

[Marblehead]

lol; you can't just get up and leave!!

Hehehe. Sure he can. I've seen him do it before. But he loves a good philosophical discussion so it's hard telling when he will post next.

[Marblehead]

So my last question to see if it can be answered.

 

How can a desire exist if what we desire is not there (we have not obtained such outcome)

Ah! Another question I will speak to.

 

Did you ever have an imaginary friend when you were a young kid? Many people have. They had a desire to have a friend so they created one. Easy to do.

 

Creation and destruction. That works in the mind too.

 

And then, if we have a physical, materialistic, desire and what is desired is not yet in existence we will do whatever is necessary to cause it to materialize. I want to win the lottery. The first thing I must do is buy a ticket. Then, I need an aweful lot of good fortune.

[dee]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by dee

[Marblehead]

Sounds good to me.

[9th]

No it cannot they are completely different variables... You are trying to define who I am/am not as a person with words.

I am trying to distinguish the difference between desire/control/fear.

 

The variables are the same. Words themselves are the variables. You are trying to define an object with words. It doesnt matter whether that object is "a person" or "desire", because subjectivity is not absolute. This is not a math equation, there is no "right" answer, there is no way to "refute" your personal subjective opinions of anything.

 

The menu is not the meal

[dee]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by dee

[yabyum24]

I'm proposing the theory that desires are not really desires (since we desire what is not there and has no existence) but are labeled desires and under that label is our need to control certain outcomes which stem from fear.

Does that make more sense?

Interesting idea but I come at it from the other way round, that control & fear follow on from desire. We fear not getting what we want and thus have a need to control matters. If we had no desires, there would be no fear because at the base of this is the desire for life (becoming). We are desire realm beings after all.

[dee]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by dee

[yabyum24]

But thanks for the duality-POV.

That's no problem dee, as I am very dualistic as a being. There's no escaping the fact that I am, and nowadays I'm more than willing to admit it. When I first learned about emptiness, I realised that "nothing existed" but no matter how often I read and debated this, (and boy did I debate it) I still, surprisingly, got angry and desirous depending on the occasion.

 

I remember leaving my Buddhist meeting one Sunday evening and making my way to the taxi rank. It was late and the taxi queue was full of drunken revelers. I was able to nevertheless generate dispassion for the scene by considering what we had just learned and meditated upon - that "all is mere illusion".

 

One pretty and quite busty girl came over to me giggling, and lifted her top to reveal her naked breasts. She said something like "Bet you know all about these, don't you?" Her friends were in hysterics. (note: I didn't have a girlfriend at that time).

 

I was suddenly very embarrassed and as I quickly climbed into the taxi, the driver said "They're all f***ing slappers, I can't stand them". I can still recall the hatred in his voice.

 

There was a lesson in that for me. At the time I thought I just needed to redouble my efforts to understand emptiness but in hindsight, as a young man confronted by a girl pushing her breasts up against me, there was only so far up my own arse I was able to go.

Edited January 30, 2014 by yabyum24

[Marblehead]

That's no problem dee, as I am very dualistic as a being.

Wonderful post and realization.

[nestentrie]

So my last question to see if it can be answered.

 

How can a desire exist if what we desire is not there (we have not obtained such outcome)

 

The object of desire here may not exist, but there is still the process of desire itself. Why are you pressing so strongly for it to not exist?

 

The baseball batter swings and misses. If he didn't hit the ball does that make his swing not exist? The lover who pines for who they would have as their lover, but gets rejected when they proposition them. Does this make the would be lover not exist? Does it make love not exist?

 

I could go on...

 

You mention a need of control as the root of this issue, citing desire as the mere mask of it. You have it that the mask is only there because the objects of control don't exist; that we 'have not obtained such outcome(s). Seems that both terms are failing in their functions. So why place such emphasis on control?

 

I suppose here i'm not really putting forward an argument, just asking for clarification. It just seems to me that you're inducting another illusion other than 'i want what i don't have'; you're saying 'i have but i don't want'.

[dee]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by dee

[9th]

[nestentrie]

. I've concluded an answer if you read the above post of mine.

Sorry. I missed that part.

[Marblehead]

Not replying after this anymore.

But Dee, you can't take your ball and go home. Hehehe. The ball is in play. And there may be some late-comers who gain something from the above discussions and who might want to share their thoughs.

 

I think it has been a good thread. Sure, there were some misunderstandings but that happens in most threads, and especially when we are talking about our root emotions.

 

Thanks for starting the thread and offering the opportunity for many of us to present our questions and understandings.

[yabyum24]

This thread is over with. I've come to a conclusion and yabyum24 has presented that conclusion in a dualistic version.

Hi Dee, Sorry if I've caused offense. It wasn't my intention to misrepresent your conclusion in any way by trying to put a twist on it which you had not intended.

 

If I've seen it from a dualistic POV, then that says more about my personal limitations than it does about anything you have written.

 

In any case, I enjoyed reading, considering and contributing - so thanks for putting it up.