"You can't handle the TRUTH !"

[The Prisoner]

... my forces works against evil, if you come near me you'll lose your sane

[chegg]

If I based my postings on that criteria I would have a very much lower post count.

 

Lol, ok here is a more relevant question....are there any circumstances which may arise that you can justify lying to someone ?

 

/start ramble

I don't believe the acts of lying or deception exist in the higher realms so one would be going against the spiritual current somewhat and/or obstruct their own development . Is it really necessary to lie at all ? The only case I can think of for lying would be for the purpose of protecting someone from harm or imminent death. Some teachings make a point that it is extremely important to tell the truth at all times and in all cases.

/end ramble

 

I think I've answered my own question

 

 

Blessings of Truth.

:wub: :wub:

Edited February 5, 2014 by chegg

[Marblehead]

Lol, ok here is a more relevant question....are there any circumstances which may arise that you can justify lying to someone ?

 

...

 

I think I've answered my own question

 

 

Blessings of Truth.

:wub: :wub:

Yeah, I think you answered your own question.

 

I would say no, but you pointed out a possible exception. And then life throws some pretty wierd stuff at us on occasion and hard telling what might result.

[Songtsan]

Truth is as Reality does...

[Stosh]

Ummm, Im not promoting the habit , just playing devils advocate here, but there are lots and lots of reasons to be deceptive, and there are also many ways. Yes it is or can be justified in all sorts of ways though it is subjective opinion as deciding if a lie was justified. If I say its always bad , then I hold everyone up to my own subjective standard which tends to make me intolerant ,, as In I dont lie, and you do, so you are bad, and since youre bad, I have to disapprove of you. Which isnt promoting harmony for my self or in regards to other people.

If you wear a suit to an interview or a date, is that phony ? and therefore a lie of sorts , and therefore bad.. and,,, by the same token if I dress 'down' am I really a bum or slob although not phony ? or am I phony If I dress down ,because its also not an accurate transmission about myself?

My mom had a habit of never to say a discouraging word if she could help it,, now considering she was a fairly normal person with a complete set of human attributes ,, then there were plenty of times she didnt say what was really on her mind.,, and I just dont see any dividing line between verbal lies told , or negative sentiments withheld intentionally as being deceptive media.

Either way , the other person no longer has the understanding of the situation most accurately representing the reality of it ,, and so, has not now the choice to act in a way in accord with the reality of the situation.

The advantage of correct understanding is gone.

The bible of Christianity's Ten commandments doesnt say that one shall not LIE , it says ' false witness' so I think they too see that there is a difference between the intents to decieve which are intended as harm and which arent aimed at that.. but this doesnt mean that there is a REAL difference which depends on the things intended because intents are illusory too as far as the material world is concerned,, you said what ever it was you said ,and thats IT.

I suppose one can look to see if the ends justify the means .. but in that case .. whats a lie then (that a truth is not as well)?

Edited February 5, 2014 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Interesting post Stosh but I would suggest that if telling the truth may seem to be harmful then I suggest it would be better to just remain silent.

 

When you lady asks you if that dress makes her butt look fat you don't say "Your butt is fat no matter what clothes you wear.", you remain silent, if possible. Or maybe an "I don't know."

[Stosh]

Interesting post Stosh but I would suggest that if telling the truth may seem to be harmful then I suggest it would be better to just remain silent.

 

When you lady asks you if that dress makes her butt look fat you don't say "Your butt is fat no matter what clothes you wear.", you remain silent, if possible. Or maybe an "I don't know."

Sure , Im not promoting any one thing there , but depending on your relationship she may be asking because she values your opinion... or not. Assuming she wants the pleasant lie would be something youd have to judge.+

 

As a for instance , when I was a kid , and drew a picture, Id show my mom to get her input , It became rapidly clear past a certain age, that whatever I put in front of her she'd react to the same.. basically it was useless to get her reaction. I still resent getting bullshitted because I was being denied actually relating.

Its still difficult to get honest opinions from most people because you get some patronizing response, or oppositely no matter what you present will always get some undermining response.

 

Similarly , giving honest responses is also fraught with doubt because the presenter now expects dishonesty from everyone. I guy I know learning photography , cant believe me when I tell him he took a good one and cant take the criticism if there is something he could work on etc because he feels it is somehow a personal attack. Its ridiculous, I COULD give him feedback , and I could help him learn some stuff faster , but I cant because he just cant trust the intent of a comment to just be bald fact of opinion.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, most people want to hear what "they" want to hear. Never mind the truth, never mind the criticism.

 

But I do agree with you in that there are those who wish that you would give them your honest opinion. My best friend here in my 'real' world is like that. But we actually have a caring relationship. That might be the key, I don't know.

[nestentrie]

Honesty is having two pieces of string of unequal length and reporting that you two pieces of string of unequal length. There isn't much more to say about it.

 

That's why people often find honesty unappealing and sometimes even unsatisfactory (you can't draw blood from a stone).

 

There is more however to a situation that requires honesty than honesty itself. Situations that require honesty rely on a person's facility. Facility to entertain another and their wishes. Facility to entertain what another will or won't do. Receptivity.

 

In good faith we determine what is acceptable. In good faith we follow the momentum of the situation and further determine what we can do to maintain that momentum. We co-operate. If one of our pieces of string is useful, we report on that usefulness. If it isn't, we go along in good faith that maybe the other piece has unforeseen opportunity, or that our first piece could be modified to suit the situation. If all has failed while attempting these things, then like Marblehead said, we give an 'i don't know' (which is still satisfying the condition of honesty).

 

So while honesty in itself is a blunt instrument, there are skills that complement and augment it, making the whole process something dignified.

 

It's something we can believe in.

[Stosh]

Yeah, most people want to hear what "they" want to hear. Never mind the truth, never mind the criticism.

 

But I do agree with you in that there are those who wish that you would give them your honest opinion. My best friend here in my 'real' world is like that. But we actually have a caring relationship. That might be the key, I don't know.

Its quite a thing you are talking about there Mh , and I have tried to put a lasso around the idea , what it is, it has eluded me.

[idiot_stimpy]

What's the magical truth?

[Marblehead]

Its quite a thing you are talking about there Mh , and I have tried to put a lasso around the idea , what it is, it has eluded me.

Indeed. I don't claim understanding because I never know what others want to hear from me. I do try to go with the flow at the time and normally end up just joking around in order to prevent negative feelings by others.

 

If we could read others' mind it would be easy but then that would take away part of the mystery of life and I think that wouldn't be good.

[Marblehead]

What's the magical truth?

I don't do magic.

[idiot_stimpy]

I don't do magic.

I don't either, but I'm still interested

[Marblehead]

I don't either, but I'm still interested

I suppose I have to admit a little interest as well. Neat how some have the ability to present illusions to us and our brain causes us to believe something that is not true.

[idiot_stimpy]

Good one

[Zhongyongdaoist]

What's the magical truth?

 

The above is in reference to this:

 

The following posts are about two types of truth with some serious and interesting overlapping:

 

From what I have heard the secret is self protecting.

 

You could scream it out on the roof tops and nobody would care.

The above is the 'mystical' type of truth. Below is the 'magical' type of truth:

I have found that people who aren't ready, can use stuff they shouldn't. Also people with crappy ethics can just fine as well.

 

I had asked a student to not teach the stuff to anyone, especially not a certain person (as the spirits had told me to NEVER teach her ever). So of course he went and taught it to this person... *sigh*. All was fine and good until she emailed me from the hospital in the psyche ward.

 

Then there was that guy (fortunately I never taught him and never will) who cursed his roomate for stealing bread out of the fridge...

 

Or even worse, folks who learn a little bit from a tidbit of info made public, then think they are a master and teach others without the experience, practice, wisdom or knowledge, or the other 99.9%, of the system....

 

I just noticed this. Since idiot_stimpy PM'ed me about this, I am already preparing a reply of sorts. I hope to have it up shortly.

[Nungali]

Interesting post Stosh but I would suggest that if telling the truth may seem to be harmful then I suggest it would be better to just remain silent.

 

When you lady asks you if that dress makes her butt look fat you don't say "Your butt is fat no matter what clothes you wear.", you remain silent, if possible. Or maybe an "I don't know."

The trick is to modify the truth without lying ... the above ??? You wont get away with that

 

The answer would be; no ( and the unsaid bit is ... because your butt is fat by itself and it is not the dress that is making it look like that).

[Nungali]

Sure , Im not promoting any one thing there , but depending on your relationship she may be asking because she values your opinion... or not. Assuming she wants the pleasant lie would be something youd have to judge.+

 

As a for instance , when I was a kid , and drew a picture, Id show my mom to get her input , It became rapidly clear past a certain age, that whatever I put in front of her she'd react to the same.. basically it was useless to get her reaction. I still resent getting bullshitted because I was being denied actually relating.

Its still difficult to get honest opinions from most people because you get some patronizing response, or oppositely no matter what you present will always get some undermining response.

 

Similarly , giving honest responses is also fraught with doubt because the presenter now expects dishonesty from everyone. I guy I know learning photography , cant believe me when I tell him he took a good one and cant take the criticism if there is something he could work on etc because he feels it is somehow a personal attack. Its ridiculous, I COULD give him feedback , and I could help him learn some stuff faster , but I cant because he just cant trust the intent of a comment to just be bald fact of opinion.

 

Yes, some people take a dislike (of something associated to them) personally and a like, as praise . It seems an 'over-association' to me, with some types of people. I have even been told that my car didnt suit me and I should get something better that fits my 'style' or the image I want to project. WTF is that ! ?

 

This attachment (in this type of person) is even worse on the mental level when associated with ideas and solutions and can lead to people being attached to wrong solutions as they were their idea in the first place. This is something that has to be eliminated when working with group processes like consultation * and consensus .

 

* http://info.bahai.org/article-1-3-6-3.html

[Nungali]

Yeah, most people want to hear what "they" want to hear. Never mind the truth, never mind the criticism.

When I was catering my boss would make something and then ask me to test it and what I thought about it?

 

This is the boss mind you ... so what to do?

 

If it was good and I liked it I would say so. if i thought it wasn't up to scratch I would say ; "Do you want the truth or do you want to feel good about yourself?"

 

Usually he would say, :I want to feel to feel good about myself."

 

Then I would say "Oh, its lovely ! "

 

And he would say ; "You're a bastard!" and walk off.

[Nungali]

There are studies in sociology and cultural anthropology about the need for 'lying' ( principle 3 'witholding truth' as above in post # 13 ) as a 'social glue'.

 

http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=lying+as+a+social+necessity&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=O_fzUpjqCYftkgXgjYDoCg&ved=0CCUQgQMwAA

Edited February 6, 2014 by Nungali

[Stosh]

There are studies in sociology and cultural anthropology about the need for 'lying' ( principle 3 'witholding truth' as above in post # 13 ) as a 'social glue'.

 

http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=lying+as+a+social+necessity&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=O_fzUpjqCYftkgXgjYDoCg&ved=0CCUQgQMwAA

Good point N, ( but the link in post 71 doesnt go directly to the link you may have in mind ),

Though, Ive come across the idea before too... What isnt answered for me though , is the question of whether the habit is what promotes the need for the behavior , or whether its perfectly feasible for the practice to be abandoned if the social situation evolves in the absence of strategic withholding of facts. ( small tribes , co-ops, families etc) then the glue is in the familiarity and intimacy of the group..

[3bob]

if one were an undivided and thus unified individual then what such an individual said would not be a lie to them, (for what else could they could say?) although it might be a "lie" in other contexts to other Beings;

 

...but since we are mostly not undivided and thus (often not) unified individuals that means we have warring factions within ourselves, for instance one day a nice guy, one day an ass, another day depressed, another day happy, one day a glutton, another day eating only a salad, etc.. and out of all of these factions some are in fluctuating control for moments some for days and so forth depending on inner and outer conditions and or influences. Thus what is the truth and what is a lie when we are divided within ourselves?

Edited February 7, 2014 by 3bob

[Nungali]

Good point N, ( but the link in post 71 doesnt go directly to the link you may have in mind ),

 

I was referring to several of them and was being lazy .

 

Though, Ive come across the idea before too... What isnt answered for me though , is the question of whether the habit is what promotes the need for the behavior , or whether its perfectly feasible for the practice to be abandoned if the social situation evolves in the absence of strategic withholding of facts. ( small tribes , co-ops, families etc) then the glue is in the familiarity and intimacy of the group..

 

Aha! 'Social situation' evolution .... yes, but another long and very interesting subject ... I think that is part of the dynamic.

 

But there is also the need in 'secret societies' where different cultural dynamic plays out ; the 'unconscious impact' or 'spritual content' needed to effect deep and ingrained (or programmed) behaviour ... great socio cultural change seems to come best (in lasting effect) via 'spiritual' media ( prophet, priest, shaman ) and their associated rights of passage.

 

The impact of a surprise birthday party, for example, is different if one knows about it.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Nungali

[chegg]

When the truth is found........to be lies.........and all the joy........within you dies

Don't you want somebody to love, don't you need somebody to love,

Wouldn't you love somebody to love, you better find somebody to love !

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Blessings of Finding the Appropriate Youtube Clip

:wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

Edited February 7, 2014 by chegg