taoism enlightenment?

[Kajenx]

However, the enlightenment has to be working out perfectly for you.

 

Haha, I was being sarcastic!

[110576_1494798793]

 

 

I'm not aware of this multitude of disagreements. Maybe is it something kept hidden ?

 

It's not hidden. All of the different Daoist schools exist only because they are different. It's what happens when something like religion evolves from a text as simple as the DaoDeJing. Sects and schisms... No-one knows what Laozi meant except the expert you're currently talking to. And if anyone says otherwise, they're heterodox and can't be trusted. I'm only writing as someone who believes Laozi wasn't a religious Daoist or that there was even a religion based on Daoism at the time the DaoDeJing was composed. I'm no expert though...

 

I found the following quoted text at http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/chin/hbcanondaw-u.html

 

The names of Daoist Schools that come up most commonly are:

 

Língbǎo 灵宝 (靈寶) "Spiritual Treasure." A sect of Daoism, apparently having its roots in Hàn dynasty local religious practitioners.

 

Lóngmén 龙门 (龍門) "Dragon gate." A sect of Daoism, centered around Nánjīng and in Jiāngsū province. Sometimes classed as a subdivision of Quánzhēn 全真.

 

Quánzhēn 全真 "Total Reality." A sect of Daoism widespread today. There are some Quánzhēn temples in the United States.

 

Shàngqīng 上清 "Consummate Purity." A sect of Daoism that is associated with Mount Máo or Máo Shān 茅山 ("grass mountain") in Jiāngsū province, and therefore sometimes also called Máoshān Daoism. It particularly stresses use of the Yellow Court Scripture or Huángtíng Jīng 黄庭经) (黃庭經. The founder was a woman named Wèi Huácún 魏华存 (魏華存) (251-334), who married and raised a family but was subject to visions of immortals.

 

Shénxiāo 神宵 "Spirit Night." A sect of Daoism possibly originating around Mount Lú or Lú Shān 庐山) (廬山) (also called Lǘ Shān 闾山) (閭山). The liturgical forms used are of a "popular" nature, i.e., derived from non-canonical sources, and considered "heterdox" by many Daoist priests. Sometimes also called Lúshān Daoism. This is the only major liturgical group whose texts are not secretly transmitted.

 

Zhèngyī 正一 "Orthodox Unity") (Also written Zhèngyǐ 正乙). A sect of Daoism, founded by Zhāng Dàolíng 张道陵 (張道陵) and today the principal orthodox sect. Because the head of the sect, always a descendant of the founder, is referred to as the "Celestial Master Zhāng" (Zhāng Tiānshī 张天师 [張天師]), this is sometimes called the "Celestial Master Sect."

[Stosh]

I'm not aware of this multitude of disagreements. Maybe is it something kept hidden ?

 

 

Zhe is explaning my point better than I can, so Ill leave it to him.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

I'm only writing as someone who believes Laozi wasn't a religious Daoist or that there was even a religion based on Daoism at the time the DaoDeJing was composed. I'm no expert though...

Well, there is at least one person who agrees with you. Me. I'm sure there are others.

[Rara]

It's not hidden. All of the different Daoist schools exist only because they are different. It's what happens when something like religion evolves from a text as simple as the DaoDeJing. Sects and schisms... No-one knows what Laozi meant except the expert you're currently talking to. And if anyone says otherwise, they're heterodox and can't be trusted. I'm only writing as someone who believes Laozi wasn't a religious Daoist or that there was even a religion based on Daoism at the time the DaoDeJing was composed. I'm no expert though...

 

I found the following quoted text at http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/chin/hbcanondaw-u.html

 

The names of Daoist Schools that come up most commonly are:

 

Língbǎo 灵宝 (靈寶) "Spiritual Treasure." A sect of Daoism, apparently having its roots in Hàn dynasty local religious practitioners.

 

Lóngmén 龙门 (龍門) "Dragon gate." A sect of Daoism, centered around Nánjīng and in Jiāngsū province. Sometimes classed as a subdivision of Quánzhēn 全真.

 

Quánzhēn 全真 "Total Reality." A sect of Daoism widespread today. There are some Quánzhēn temples in the United States.

 

Shàngqīng 上清 "Consummate Purity." A sect of Daoism that is associated with Mount Máo or Máo Shān 茅山 ("grass mountain") in Jiāngsū province, and therefore sometimes also called Máoshān Daoism. It particularly stresses use of the Yellow Court Scripture or Huángtíng Jīng 黄庭经) (黃庭經. The founder was a woman named Wèi Huácún 魏华存 (魏華存) (251-334), who married and raised a family but was subject to visions of immortals.

 

Shénxiāo 神宵 "Spirit Night." A sect of Daoism possibly originating around Mount Lú or Lú Shān 庐山) (廬山) (also called Lǘ Shān 闾山) (閭山). The liturgical forms used are of a "popular" nature, i.e., derived from non-canonical sources, and considered "heterdox" by many Daoist priests. Sometimes also called Lúshān Daoism. This is the only major liturgical group whose texts are not secretly transmitted.

 

Zhèngyī 正一 "Orthodox Unity") (Also written Zhèngyǐ 正乙). A sect of Daoism, founded by Zhāng Dàolíng 张道陵 (張道陵) and today the principal orthodox sect. Because the head of the sect, always a descendant of the founder, is referred to as the "Celestial Master Zhāng" (Zhāng Tiānshī 张天师 [張天師]), this is sometimes called the "Celestial Master Sect."

 

Yup. The research side of things pretty much confirms that Taoism as a philosophical movement didn't even occur until 300 years after Laozi supposedly existed. And the religion came much, much later.

 

This is why I asked you, Dao Rain Dao, what you meant by "true Taoist". I struggle to see how a philosophy about the natural can still be seen as pure or "true" when put into an organised religion. If the Tao that is spoken is not the eternal Tao (to paraphrase) then what can any school/lineage really teach us about it?

[Cheshire Cat]

 

This is why I asked you, Dao Rain Dao, what you meant by "true Taoist". I struggle to see how a philosophy about the natural can still be seen as pure or "true" when put into an organised religion. If the Tao that is spoken is not the eternal Tao (to paraphrase) then what can any school/lineage really teach us about it?

 

The fact that the idea of daoism that we have today in the west is born out of a partial diffusion and a peculiar interpretation of the teachings. It's not something that comes from the ancient time, but a modern philosophy.

 

Therefore, I consider a true daoist to be one who belongs to an original daoist trasmission.

You may say they're all frauds if you like, but they were called "daoists" long before daoism was known in the west.

[Stosh]

A treasure lost may be refound ,but modern inspiration could either be a continuation of a wandering trail or it could return to the source. How could anyone be sure which had happened?

To my mind ,one needs to look to where modern wisdom would have been true thousands of years ago.

Man himself has not seemed to change , just the trappings and cultural norms.

Its the basic scientific paradigm , the basic rational assumption that pervades any such search , that if the rules have not changed ,then one can draw parallels and arrive at the same conclusions despite differences in time or place.

Whatever old religion you examine , I think you will find schisms and alterations over time which significantly affect how it is that the practice is followed.

A lineage , could be desirable to follow , because one wants that structure , the heritage , the connectedness.. and ultimately it might not matter to the new adherent whether it was accurately true to the opinions of Lao or Confucious or Abraham... especially if one couldnt be sure of what the original was.

Another might find it most important , to be absolutely faithful to the opinions of the original author. Crediting it with an authenticity beyond reproach., whether the ideas had be refined or improved upon could likewise be secondary.

And a third may not care much at all for the historical views for the sake of community , not much at all for the author for the sake of origination,, but instead focuses on that which is ultimately TRUE, and which is true for all peoples, for all times , in any land and is condemning of all the wrong ideas regardless of which peoples said what, where, or when they said so.

Theres probably other options as well.

[110576_1494798793]

 

 

The fact that the idea of daoism that we have today in the west is born out of a partial diffusion and a peculiar interpretation of the teachings. It's not something that comes from the ancient time, but a modern philosophy.

 

Therefore, I consider a true daoist to be one who belongs to an original daoist trasmission.

You may say they're all frauds if you like, but they were called "daoists" long before daoism was known in the west.

 

Hi DAO rain TAO. I think the biggest problem you're going to have is deciding just how original a Daoist transmission you're willing to settle for. For example, do you know who started the first Daoist Daojiao school? Was it a schism of a school that was both Daojiao and Daojia? Did your 'original' school use a text more like the one discovered at Guodian or more like the Mawangdui? Did they even use a text or were the teachings of the founder circulated orally?

 

I'm basically an atheist (with some pantheism thrown in), partly I suppose because no gods have bothered introducing themselves to me. Are you looking at following Daoism in a religious sense, following even their gods? This is just personal opinion, but some of the Daojiao gods are pretty far out. But then maybe that’s just how gods are supposed to be…

 

I’m not writing this to put you off your search. I just think that if you are looking for something, you need to have a pretty good idea of just what it is you’re looking for. Don’t suspend logic when searching for the natural because the natural is logical, not supernatural. The DaoDeJing is all about naturalness and being natural. But then all searches of your sort are personal, so who am I to say what is right or wrong? LOL! Maybe you will receive your enlightenment somewhere down the track (or Path...). Good luck on your search.

 

I've just reread Robert Henricks’ book on the Guodian Tao Te Ching and he has an interesting note on a Daoist god you may be interested in. The god is Taiyi, the "Great One", a Daoist (pre-Daoist?) creation god. He is writing about a short book called the "Taiyi shengshui" which was found in the Guodian tomb. I'll quote it. It's from page 123 of Henricks' "Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching".

 

...Taiyi, the "Great One". Does this mean that the "Great One" is the 'name' (ming) of what we 'refer to as' (wei) or 'designate' (zi) the "Dao"? Not necessarily. Relevant here are the lines in chapter 25 of the Laozi, where speaking of the source of heaven and earth, the author explains: "I do not yet know its name[ming]; I simply 'call it' [zi zih] the Dao. Were I forced to give it a name, I would say it's 'The Great' [da]." Lines 10-12 make the same distinction between what something actually is , that is, its "name", and how we "refer to" that thing, what it is "called" (wei), that is, its "designation" (zi).

[Icedude]

Well, it started with sexual abuse. I consider my abusers to be my teachers. Without opposition, you'll just stride ahead, thinking everything is okay, and that everything that you think and feel is the only true way of thinking and feeling. Without encountering other paths, you'll never be aware that other paths exist.

 

It also started with "commercialistic" depictions of soothing flute music, peaceful zen gardens, and friendly monks. It was portrayed as a sort of heaven on Earth. How awesome is that?

 

Then I had some time over, so someone I was attracted to, lent me a simplistic book on taoism.

Then I read Tao Te Ching.

Then I solved Mumonkan. (I know I wasn't supposed to do that, and I'm sorry.)

After this I began taking lessons from life itself.

 

When it comes to taoism, I reckon that Tao Te Ching has to be a necessary step. There is relativism and nihilism, but I don't think it becomes taoism unless you understand what "tao" is.

After that, if you want to become enlightened after that, I recommend solving Mumonkan. It belongs to the buddhist rinzai zen philosophy, where people just sit around and think about it all day, but as a taoist you actually pass through the gateless gate that way. It was a fairly short journey to enlightenment for me, so it ended shortly after it began.

 

Also 4chan is a marvellous place where you get lots of different paths intersecting. At least it was back in the day - now it feels dumbed down. 4chan is my meditation.

[thelerner]

Mumonkan. I never knew koan study by that name, but I always enjoyed reading old Zen tales. Good stuff: http://www.openbuddha.com/resources/koans/mumonkan.html