Chuang Tzu - Words, ritual and questions related to "Taoism"

[Rara]

I finally finished the book a few days ago. I was thoroughly entertained throughout

 

Now, I've realised something due to things that are repeated several times in the book. Of course, Chuang Tzu wasn't a Taoist as he was a pioneer of bringing the ideas into text. The Taoist came later - us who study the Tao.

 

Ok, let me stop here for a minute. Isn't such study the exact thing that Chuang Tzu was ridiculing all throughout the book? Isn't this what Confucius and many others were doing and just not getting it? The idea of ritual is spoken against yet a lot of us sit in meditation daily as a routine. Many strive for enlightenment, but aren't we just chasing something that isn't there by doing so?

 

A lot of us on the forum get caught up in metaphysics and spiritual ideas/dogma. Is this really being a Taoist? If so, I think that Taoism might be missing the point a little bit. The debates that are had are somewhat pointless in the eyes of Chuang Tzu, right?

 

Do discuss!

[Marblehead]

Hi Rara,

 

Glad you enjoyed the reading.

 

To your questions, I would first like to point out that I have a long time ago suggested tha tChuang Tzu was an Anarchist. Don't expect him to be going along with the accepted norm.

 

Chuang Tzu spoke out against those who suggested that man's nature needed to be altered so that their behavior was acceptable by "their" standards. I don't think that suggesting that Chuang Tzu was against gaining knowledge and wisdom. But he did speak out against the misuse of it, ie, using it to control others.

 

Yes, he did speak out against ritual and ceremony. But his arguement, I think, was that doing such is not normal for most people.

 

Chuang Tzu did speak about, and teach, I'm sure, empty-minded meditation.

 

Chuang Tzu was a mystic. I firmly believe this. The butterfly story is a perfect example. Also the story of the princess who had to marry and go off to a foreign land.

 

To say what is Taoist for any individual must be based on what is natural for that individual. Many fing it natural to think upon the metaphysical and the spiritual.

[Rara]

Hi Rara,

 

Glad you enjoyed the reading.

 

To your questions, I would first like to point out that I have a long time ago suggested tha tChuang Tzu was an Anarchist. Don't expect him to be going along with the accepted norm.

 

Chuang Tzu spoke out against those who suggested that man's nature needed to be altered so that their behavior was acceptable by "their" standards. I don't think that suggesting that Chuang Tzu was against gaining knowledge and wisdom. But he did speak out against the misuse of it, ie, using it to control others.

 

Yes, he did speak out against ritual and ceremony. But his arguement, I think, was that doing such is not normal for most people.

 

Chuang Tzu did speak about, and teach, I'm sure, empty-minded meditation.

 

Chuang Tzu was a mystic. I firmly believe this. The butterfly story is a perfect example. Also the story of the princess who had to marry and go off to a foreign land.

 

To say what is Taoist for any individual must be based on what is natural for that individual. Many fing it natural to think upon the metaphysical and the spiritual.

 

Hey

 

Yes, I do remember you saying about his anarchist nature, which cuts through in the book.

 

The impression I got when reading is that "knowledge" in itself it fundamentally useless...it's just one big game of chasing the next thing, then the next etc. But without it, our minds and bodies are cleared and simplified. Just like the animals don't waste their time with debates and wondering about what lies ahead. They just live.

 

Hence the empty-mind meditation you speak of...but I question whether he practiced this formally, daily, or whether it was just his general, natural way of being. Perhaps he just walked about every day with this empty mind. If you get time, could you let me know where he references this meditation in the book? I must have missed it....then again, it's not like he is tongue-in-cheek when talking about things.

 

I don't dispute that he was a mystic, but it's not overly emphasised. I feel that we can get a bit carried away with superstition. And why did a Taoist religion start I wonder? It was never required before...

[Brian]

People are like that.

 

As another example, Jesus chastised his followers for reciting hollow memorized prayers and he gave an example of a spontaneous & personal one -- which is now recited as a hollow memorized prayer.

 

People are like that...

Edited February 3, 2014 by Brian

[Marblehead]

And why did a Taoist religion start I wonder? It was never required before...

I'll get the meditation section later but respond to this now.

 

I cannot prove this but it is my opinion that Taoist Religion was established "after" Buddhism was introduced to China and it started becoming popular. The Taoists didn't want taoism to be over-shadowed and forgotten. I base this on how much Buddhism is actually within the Taoist Religion.

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu, Burton Watson translation, Section Four - In The World Of Man

 

Confucius said, "... You are still making the mind your teacher!"

 

Yen Hui said, "I have nothing more to offer. May I ask the proper way?"

 

"You must fast!" said Confucius. "I will tell you what that means. Do you think it is easy to do anything while you have [a mind]? If you do, Bright Heaven will not sanction you."

 

Yen Hui said, "My family is poor. I haven't drunk wine or eaten any strong foods for several months. So can I be considered as having fasted?"

 

"That is the fasting one does before a sacrifice, not the fasting of the mind."

 

"May I ask what the fasting of the mind is?"

 

Confucius said, "Make your will one! Don't listen with your ears, listen with your mind. No, don't listen with your mind, but listen with your spirit. Listening stops with the ears, the mind stops with recognition, but spirit is empty- and waits on all things. The Way gathers in emptiness alone. Emptiness is the fasting of the mind."

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I finally finished the book a few days ago. I was thoroughly entertained throughout

 

Now, I've realised something due to things that are repeated several times in the book. Of course, Chuang Tzu wasn't a Taoist as he was a pioneer of bringing the ideas into text. The Taoist came later - us who study the Tao.

 

Ok, let me stop here for a minute. Isn't such study the exact thing that Chuang Tzu was ridiculing all throughout the book? Isn't this what Confucius and many others were doing and just not getting it? The idea of ritual is spoken against yet a lot of us sit in meditation daily as a routine. Many strive for enlightenment, but aren't we just chasing something that isn't there by doing so?

 

A lot of us on the forum get caught up in metaphysics and spiritual ideas/dogma. Is this really being a Taoist? If so, I think that Taoism might be missing the point a little bit. The debates that are had are somewhat pointless in the eyes of Chuang Tzu, right?

 

Do discuss!

 

Because we're only Ladies and Gentlemen at best.

 

"MANY ARE THE MEN in the world who apply themselves to doctrines and policies, and each believes he has something that cannot be improved upon. What in ancient times was called the "art of the Way' - where does it exist? I say, there is no place it does not exist. But, you ask, where does holiness descend from, where does enlightenment emerge from? The sage gives them birth, the king completes them, and all have their source in the One. He who does not depart from the Ancestor is called the Heavenly Man; he who does not depart from the Pure is called the Holy Man; he who does not depart from the True is called the Perfect Man.

To make Heaven his source, Virtue his root, and the Way his gate, revealing himself through change and transformation - one who does this is called a Sage.

To make benevolence his standard of kindness, righteousness his model of reason, ritual his guide to conduct, and music his source of harmony, serene in mercy and benevolence - one who does this is called a gentleman."

 

- opening of last chapter, 33, of Chuang Tzu.

[Rara]

Chuang Tzu, Burton Watson translation, Section Four - In The World Of Man

 

Confucius said, "... You are still making the mind your teacher!"

 

Yen Hui said, "I have nothing more to offer. May I ask the proper way?"

 

"You must fast!" said Confucius. "I will tell you what that means. Do you think it is easy to do anything while you have [a mind]? If you do, Bright Heaven will not sanction you."

 

Yen Hui said, "My family is poor. I haven't drunk wine or eaten any strong foods for several months. So can I be considered as having fasted?"

 

"That is the fasting one does before a sacrifice, not the fasting of the mind."

 

"May I ask what the fasting of the mind is?"

 

Confucius said, "Make your will one! Don't listen with your ears, listen with your mind. No, don't listen with your mind, but listen with your spirit. Listening stops with the ears, the mind stops with recognition, but spirit is empty- and waits on all things. The Way gathers in emptiness alone. Emptiness is the fasting of the mind."

 

Thanks for this. Though I'm still struggling to understand how Confucius has so much wisdom in this chapter when in others he is way below par...

 

Because we're only Ladies and Gentlemen at best.

 

"MANY ARE THE MEN in the world who apply themselves to doctrines and policies, and each believes he has something that cannot be improved upon. What in ancient times was called the "art of the Way' - where does it exist? I say, there is no place it does not exist. But, you ask, where does holiness descend from, where does enlightenment emerge from? The sage gives them birth, the king completes them, and all have their source in the One. He who does not depart from the Ancestor is called the Heavenly Man; he who does not depart from the Pure is called the Holy Man; he who does not depart from the True is called the Perfect Man.

To make Heaven his source, Virtue his root, and the Way his gate, revealing himself through change and transformation - one who does this is called a Sage.

To make benevolence his standard of kindness, righteousness his model of reason, ritual his guide to conduct, and music his source of harmony, serene in mercy and benevolence - one who does this is called a gentleman."

 

- opening of last chapter, 33, of Chuang Tzu.

 

Sure...so do you think he is implying that some that walk among us are "heavenly men"? Looks to me like rankings of enlightenment that is being described...

[Marblehead]

Thanks for this. Though I'm still struggling to understand how Confucius has so much wisdom in this chapter when in others he is way below par...

Yes, that is a tricky one to deal with. Sometimes we must ignore who said whatever, understand the words, and then, once the concepts have been grasped we can even forget the words.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks for this. Though I'm still struggling to understand how Confucius has so much wisdom in this chapter when in others he is way below par...

 

 

Sure...so do you think he is implying that some that walk among us are "heavenly men"? Looks to me like rankings of enlightenment that is being described...

 

He does say "who does not depart from..." which sort of suggests that we are all a there a little bit, but that we don't live there 24/7.

 

Who knows who walks among us... beings of light, ancestral spirits...

 

I don't think it's necessary to look so much at ranking and all of that. When you guard De and dance to the beat of Dao, who knows what wheel we are helping turn. We just humbly do our thing and allow the Heavenly Ones, Holy Ones, Perfected Ones, and Sages do their thing.

[Rara]

I cannot prove this but it is my opinion that Taoist Religion was established "after" Buddhism was introduced to China and it started becoming popular. The Taoists didn't want taoism to be over-shadowed and forgotten. I base this on how much Buddhism is actually within the Taoist Religion.

 

Back to this...very interesting stuff. I've been looking into vegetarianism recently which led me to this: http://www.taoistresource.net/art_dhoe_veg.htm

 

Now, doesn't this seem quite dogmatic and a little Buddhist to you? A set of instructions rather than allowing us to figure this out for ourselves.

 

Elsewhere I read that meditation will eventually make one want to consume less meat and alcohol anyway...rather than subscribing to what teachings are telling us to do.

 

Just a little point I'm making about the dangers to turning the Tao into an organised religion...

 

I don't think it's necessary to look so much at ranking and all of that. When you guard De and dance to the beat of Dao, who knows what wheel we are helping turn. We just humbly do our thing and allow the Heavenly Ones, Holy Ones, Perfected Ones, and Sages do their thing.

 

Well, not a ranking as such I guess...that implies hierarchy. What I meant was different levels of enlightenment. Some have it more than others...

 

Allowing Heavenly Ones, Holy Ones, Perfected Ones and Sages to do their own thing is all well and good, but Chuang Tzu must be suggesting that by following his teachings, we work our way up there too. Otherwise, what would be the point in writing such a large text? Surely he is promoting the practice of meditation, or whatever else, that will lead us to enlightenment?

 

Interesting how Chuang Tzu talk about those more advanced than Sages too. I'm pretty sure Lao Tzu spent more time speaking of Sages in TTC than anything else, potentially further and beyond. Just a separate chapter on Enlightenment but that's all I recall off the top of my head...

[Marblehead]

Back to this...very interesting stuff. I've been looking into vegetarianism recently which led me to this: http://www.taoistresource.net/art_dhoe_veg.htm

 

Now, doesn't this seem quite dogmatic and a little Buddhist to you? A set of instructions rather than allowing us to figure this out for ourselves.

 

Elsewhere I read that meditation will eventually make one want to consume less meat and alcohol anyway...rather than subscribing to what teachings are telling us to do.

 

Just a little point I'm making about the dangers to turning the Tao into an organised religion...

Yes, I would say that is based on Religious Taoism with the Buddhist concepts.

 

We know from reading Chuang Tzu that he fished and there would be no other reason to catch fish unles you were planning to eat them. We also know that he ate goose at a friend's home.

 

To the best of my knowledge neither Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu ever recommended being a vegetarian.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Well, not a ranking as such I guess...that implies hierarchy. What I meant was different levels of enlightenment. Some have it more than others...

 

Allowing Heavenly Ones, Holy Ones, Perfected Ones and Sages to do their own thing is all well and good, but Chuang Tzu must be suggesting that by following his teachings, we work our way up there too. Otherwise, what would be the point in writing such a large text? Surely he is promoting the practice of meditation, or whatever else, that will lead us to enlightenment?

 

Interesting how Chuang Tzu talk about those more advanced than Sages too. I'm pretty sure Lao Tzu spent more time speaking of Sages in TTC than anything else, potentially further and beyond. Just a separate chapter on Enlightenment but that's all I recall off the top of my head...

 

My thoughts on this:

 

The idea of selfless-ness is as Taoist as it is Buddhist. These stages serve the self too much. Don't depart from the Ancestor, don't depart from the Pure, don't depart from the True. Sure, but to then take up these ideas of being a this, that, or the other will only send someone plummeting down from wherever they were. Looking down, saying "now I'm all the way up here," or "look at all the little people down there," is the same as looking down from a tight-wire on the first attempt. It's dangerous. It confuses people. Gives them vertigo (and green egos - inside joke for French speakers).

[Rara]

Yes, I would say that is based on Religious Taoism with the Buddhist concepts.

 

We know from reading Chuang Tzu that he fished and there would be no other reason to catch fish unles you were planning to eat them. We also know that he ate goose at a friend's home.

 

To the best of my knowledge neither Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu ever recommended being a vegetarian.

 

Absolutely...and I am eating meat again but still in the back of my own mind there is something telling me there's something up. I mean, I'm eating it less than I used to...so that is my way of "preserving life" - one thing that Chuang Tzu certainly puts forward in his philosophy. He ate meat, but also feels we should preserve life...within reason, I guess. Maybe my mind will be made up one day as to weather I really should be killing/eating animals but neither Chuang Tzu nor Lao Tzu will give me that answer! I just get freaked out when some "Taoist text" tells me that I'm eating evil spirits from an animal that is living out bad karma lol.

 

My thoughts on this:

 

The idea of selfless-ness is as Taoist as it is Buddhist. These stages serve the self too much. Don't depart from the Ancestor, don't depart from the Pure, don't depart from the True. Sure, but to then take up these ideas of being a this, that, or the other will only send someone plummeting down from wherever they were. Looking down, saying "now I'm all the way up here," or "look at all the little people down there," is the same as looking down from a tight-wire on the first attempt. It's dangerous. It confuses people. Gives them vertigo (and green egos - inside joke for French speakers).

 

I think I know what you're saying, and if so, I therefore completely get what you are saying

Edited February 6, 2014 by Rara

[Marblehead]

Absolutely...and I am eating meat again ...

Actually, I think it is true that as we age our need for meat food lessens. We don't need all that protein anymore. And we should dramatically reduce our intake of red meat.

 

I am pretty much only seafood and fowl now although I do have some summer sausage in the house now.

[Mark Saltveit]

Rara:

I'm still struggling to understand how Confucius has so much wisdom in this chapter when in others he is way below par...

 

It was common in these texts to put words into the mouths of esteemed figures -- The Yellow Emperor, etc. -- and Confucius was right up with as among the most esteemed sages.

 

At the same time, you see Zhuangzi's devilish sense of humor, as he makes Confucius say things like "ritual and respect for elders [and other Confucian ideals] are stupid".

[ChiDragon]

I finally finished the book a few days ago. I was thoroughly entertained throughout

 

Now, I've realised something due to things that are repeated several times in the book. Of course, Chuang Tzu wasn't a Taoist as he was a pioneer of bringing the ideas into text. The Taoist came later - us who study the Tao.

 

Ok, let me stop here for a minute. Isn't such study the exact thing that Chuang Tzu was ridiculing all throughout the book? Isn't this what Confucius and many others were doing and just not getting it? The idea of ritual is spoken against yet a lot of us sit in meditation daily as a routine. Many strive for enlightenment, but aren't we just chasing something that isn't there by doing so?

 

Do discuss!

 

Rara...

I like to follow your thoughts...!!!

 

You know if Zhang Tzu was not a Taoist to begin with, then where would we get all the Taoist ideas from?

 

Zhuang Tzu was ridiculing Confucius in many ways is because he didn't appreciate the trouble of going through the ritual motions by bowing to greet someone. Zhuang Tzu thought that was hypocritical and unnecessary.

 

 

[dawei]

The idea of ritual is spoken against yet a lot of us sit in meditation daily as a routine. Many strive for enlightenment, but aren't we just chasing something that isn't there by doing so?

 

A lot of us on the forum get caught up in metaphysics and spiritual ideas/dogma. Is this really being a Taoist? If so, I think that Taoism might be missing the point a little bit. The debates that are had are somewhat pointless in the eyes of Chuang Tzu, right?

 

You've hit upon relativity in Taoism...

 

For ZZ, it simply comes and goes and thus neither is to be focused on as one can see them both by focusing on the whole.

 

For LZ, it comes and goes; thus one may look at the coming or going and therein see they are part of the whole.

 

Which side of the fence you find yourself is likely to be the path you take... one which requires more sitting to forget, or forgetting to sit.

[dawei]

I cannot prove this but it is my opinion that Taoist Religion was established "after" Buddhism was introduced to China and it started becoming popular. The Taoists didn't want taoism to be over-shadowed and forgotten. I base this on how much Buddhism is actually within the Taoist Religion.

 

This is worthy of its own thread !

 

I would say it has come full circle as the shaman/spiritual seed was planted long ago... and even before that, why were they casting yarrow sticks for divine favor and answers? And before that, the gods of nature who governed earth, heaven, rain, etc.

 

The emergence of Buddhism in a land void of religious affection is the heavy rains upon the religious drought yet already planted seeds...

[Mark Saltveit]

Or perhaps it was an invasive species crowding out the better-suited native plant.

[Rara]

 

 

You know if Zhang Tzu was not a Taoist to begin with, then where would we get all the Taoist ideas from?

 

 

Hi CD...I invite you to elaborate on this as I'd like to know why you call Chuang Tzu a Taoist. I'm just going by what I read from a "student" POV. I read that he wasn't as "Taoism" came later (and the word Tao isn't even used too much by Chuang Tzu's character within the book)

 

But I would like to hear more from you!

[Rara]

 

You've hit upon relativity in Taoism...

 

For ZZ, it simply comes and goes and thus neither is to be focused on as one can see them both by focusing on the whole.

 

For LZ, it comes and goes; thus one may look at the coming or going and therein see they are part of the whole.

 

Which side of the fence you find yourself is likely to be the path you take... one which requires more sitting to forget, or forgetting to sit.

So I find this to be my confusion. After spending a lot of time "practicing Taoism" and finding it difficult to practice or WANTING to practice all the things that are perceived to be a daily Taoist ritual (chi breathing meditation for example), what you have identified is that Taoists don't HAVE to do anything at all?

 

The importance being that one knows what they are and lives life as true to that as possible. Some might become monks, others more casual every day folk....while all along just knowing that we just make up a segment of the Tao anyway, so it doesn't really matter...?

Edited February 24, 2014 by Rara

[ChiDragon]

Hi CD...I invite you to elaborate on this as I'd like to know why you call Chuang Tzu a Taoist. I'm just going by what I read from a "student" POV. I read that he wasn't as "Taoism" came later (and the word Tao isn't even used too much by Chuang Tzu's character within the book)

 

But I would like to hear more from you!

 

HI, Rara.....

Thank your invitation. You see, one must understand the definition of Tao but not "Taoism". Tao(道) for Lao Zi and Zhuang Zi are different. Lao Zi's Tao have various definitions; and Zhuang Zi's definition for Tao is 宇宙最高的法則, the Supreme Natural Law of the Universe. The definition is also one of the definitions of Lao Zi for Tao. However, ZZ borrowed the idea from the Tao Te Ching and use the natural law to explain why things are the way they are as reasons. The western term "Taoism" is very ambiguous and confusing which was never clearly state what it is all about.

 

Zhuang Zi had observed that Nature was constantly changing which effects the human lives. He had come up with many principles from the observations of Nature and applied to the humans. The principles are actually called Tao(道 or 道理) in Chinese which means reasons. Hence, Zhuang Zi becomes a philosopher of principles in reasoning. In English, he may be a Taoist but one must understand what it means.

 

There is one chapter in the classic Zhuang Zi is called 天道, the Principle of Heaven, which also known as the "Natural Law". The character 道 was used in many places. Anyway, it was immaterial whether the Tao character was used or not. It was the contents in the classic which made him a Taoist.

[Marblehead]

This is worthy of its own thread !

 

I would say it has come full circle as the shaman/spiritual seed was planted long ago... and even before that, why were they casting yarrow sticks for divine favor and answers? And before that, the gods of nature who governed earth, heaven, rain, etc.

 

The emergence of Buddhism in a land void of religious affection is the heavy rains upon the religious drought yet already planted seeds...

Yeah, I had similar discussions way back shortly after I joined this forum. Some got heated as I was more hard-headed then than I am now. (Imagine that! Hehehe.)

 

But true, the seeds already existed for religion to enter China because of the Shamanic tradition as well as the animistic, personifications of the forces of nature.

[Marblehead]

Hi CD...I invite you to elaborate on this as I'd like to know why you call Chuang Tzu a Taoist. I'm just going by what I read from a "student" POV. I read that he wasn't as "Taoism" came later (and the word Tao isn't even used too much by Chuang Tzu's character within the book)

 

But I would like to hear more from you!

I think the arguement could be made that Chuang Tzu was not a "Laoist" but was none-the-less a Taoist.