The Superiority of Tantra to Sutra

[RongzomFan]

Really?

 

Dudjom Rinpoche:

 

"The eight lower levels have intellectually fabricated and contrived that which is changeless solely due to fleeting thoughts that never experience what truly is. They apply antidotes to and reject that which is not to be rejected. They refer to as flawed that in which there is nothing to be purified, with a mind that desires purification. They have created division with respect to that which cannot be obtained by their hopes and fears that it can be obtained elsewhere. And they have obscured wisdom, which is naturally present, by their efforts in respect to that which is free from effort and free from needing to be accomplished. Therefore, they have had no chance to make contact with genuine, ultimate reality as it is (rnal ma'i de kho na nyid)."

[C T]

Really?

 

Dudjom Rinpoche:

 

"The eight lower levels have intellectually fabricated and contrived that which is changeless solely due to fleeting thoughts that never experience what truly is. They apply antidotes to and reject that which is not to be rejected. They refer to as flawed that in which there is nothing to be purified, with a mind that desires purification. They have created division with respect to that which cannot be obtained by their hopes and fears that it can be obtained elsewhere. And they have obscured wisdom, which is naturally present, by their efforts in respect to that which is free from effort and free from needing to be accomplished. Therefore, they have had no chance to make contact with genuine, ultimate reality as it is (rnal ma'i de kho na nyid)."

Thats the crux of my post. For those stuck on the mentations pertaining to their particular level of understanding, no matter what is shown to them it will not cause any further clarity to arise.

 

So, what exactly is your point in making this thread? Perhaps that could help the discussion further.

[RongzomFan]

Typically, there will always be comparative tendencies, which tells on the person actually bothering to exert effort to make such comparisons. Distractions, all of it.

 

 

Dudjom Rinpoche's whole red book is about comparing the Nyingma yanas in specific detail.

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Nyingma-School-Tibetan-Buddhism/dp/0861711998

 

Dudjom Rinpoche was a mystical terton who finished the entire path to completion.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32153-mystical-buddhist-readings/

 

Even his students such as KDL finished the entire path to completion.

Edited February 4, 2014 by RongzomFan

[C T]

Dudjom Rinpoche's whole red book is about comparing the Nyingma yanas in specific detail.

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Nyingma-School-Tibetan-Buddhism/dp/0861711998

 

Dudjom Rinpoche was a mystical terton who finished the entire path to completion.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32153-mystical-buddhist-readings/

 

Even his students such as KDL finished the entire path to completion.

have you studied the Yeshe Lama instruction manual by Jigmed Lingpa?

 

Its the ultimate handbook of Nyingma Dzogchen practice. Cant be purchased without written verification of having received the essential empowerments. I thought it would be included in his work 'Approaching the Great Perfection' but unfortunately its not.

 

Let me know what you think if you have read it. Thanks!

[Tibetan_Ice]

This point of view of this thread is somewhat deceptive, for although it is said that Tantra is superior to Sutra, pure Dzogchen is superior to tantra.

DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN SŪTRA AND TANTRA

Pema Ledrel Tsal explains the distinctions between sūtra and tantra in the following lines:KZZ 21a/4 In Tshulsum Dronme (Tshul-gSum sGron-Me, Nayatrayapradīpa TG 6B/3) it is said: “(Although) the goal is the same (as in Mahāyāna sūtra), (in tantra) there is no ignorance, There are many skillful means and less hardship. It is for people of sharp intellect. Hence, the tantrayāna is superior.”a Both sūtric and tantric traditions have the same goal of final attainment, the state of fully perfected enlightenment. (However, the tantra) is distinctive for superior means of attaining (that goal).They are the superiority of view free from ignorance, the superiority of meditation with many skillful means, the superiority of activities of no hardship, and the person of sharp intellect.... (1) The Characteristic Causation (sūtric) Yana ascertains that (a) the ultimate nature, the absolute truth (is) free from elaborations of eight extremes, but it does not realize the nature of the union of the ultimate sphere and primordial wisdom, as it is. (Tantra,) having dispelled (that ignorance), realizes the nature of the union of the ultimate sphere and primordial wisdom; so the tantra is not ignorant of the view of the ultimate nature. ( The Characteristic Causation Yāna ascertains phenomena, the things of relative truth, as the nature of interdependent arising like a magical apparition (māyā), but it is ignorant because of not yet having ascertained (phenomena) as the (Buddha-) bodies and primordial wisdoms, (but having ascertained them as just) impure (like) magical apparitions. Vajrayāna tantra ascertains (that all are): the play of the (Buddha-) bodies and primordial wisdoms, the meaning of non-duality of the ultimate sphere and primordial wisdom, the non-duality of the two truths and the supreme ultimate body. So (tantra ) is superior in being free from ignorance. (2) The meditation (of tantra) is superior because of the two stages: the skillful means of the development stage and the wisdom of the perfection stage. (3) Superiority of activities with no hardship: In the Characteristic Causation Yāna there is no path to attain enlightenment which does not abandon the objects of desire. Whereas in this (tantra), having taken the objects of desire, without abandoning, as the path (of training) which protects the mind-consciousness easily and blissfully, one becomes able to attain the state of Vajradhara in this very lifetime with this single body. (4) The superiority of the person of sharp intellect: Tantra is the training for exceptional persons who possess superior qualities. The general (quality is) the superiority of having special fivefold powers (dBang-Po) which generate enlightenment; and the special (quality is) the wisdom of realizing the profound view of Vajrayāna tantra as well as a strong power of faith with “no fear in the heavy activities” (of tantra).

Rabjam, Longchen (2002-11-25). The Practice Of Dzogchen: An Anthology Of Longchen Rabjum's Writings On Dzogpa Chenpo (p. 5-7). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.

 

This is what is said about the superiority of Dzogchen:

 

 

Although in pure Dzogpa Chenpo one doesn’t train on admitting the energy into the central channel, the training is more effective and direct than the trainings given in the tantras. Dorje Wangchog Gyepa Tsal explains:BN 24a/5 Those who have attachment to the path of skillful means (Thabs-Lam) think, “No matter how good the path of Dzogpa Chenpo is, since it doesn’t rely on the method of admitting the energy into the central channel, its (realization) is not higher than an experience of (the meaning taught in) Madhyamaka.” This kind of wrong judgment arises (due to) lack of understanding of the essential points. The (sole) purpose of admitting the energy into the central channel is (as a means) to arouse the primordial wisdom (which is realized directly in Dzogpa Chenpo).

 

Rabjam, Longchen (2002-11-25). The Practice Of Dzogchen: An Anthology Of Longchen Rabjum's Writings On Dzogpa Chenpo (p. 105). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.

 

TI

[asunthatneversets]

Tantra downplays the notion of causal efficacy.

Madhyamaka never says causality is inherently true or ultimately real. Causal occurrences apply to conventional designations, as do causal relationships.

[asunthatneversets]

Really?

 

Dudjom Rinpoche:

 

"The eight lower levels have intellectually fabricated and contrived that which is changeless solely due to fleeting thoughts that never experience what truly is. They apply antidotes to and reject that which is not to be rejected. They refer to as flawed that in which there is nothing to be purified, with a mind that desires purification. They have created division with respect to that which cannot be obtained by their hopes and fears that it can be obtained elsewhere. And they have obscured wisdom, which is naturally present, by their efforts in respect to that which is free from effort and free from needing to be accomplished. Therefore, they have had no chance to make contact with genuine, ultimate reality as it is (rnal ma'i de kho na nyid)."

 

Yet he also states:

"The sangha has two communities, the shaven-headed followers of the sutras and the long-haired mantrayana practitioners. These two groups were established by special decree when the light of the buddhist teachings was first shone in the dark land of Tibet by the abbot Shantarakshita, the master Padmasambhava and the king Trisong Detsen, giving us the well-known expression, “two sangha communities honoured by the king.” Down to the present day, they have continued to exist side by side. Although there are some slight differences between them in terms of outward appearance, dress and so on, based on the specific way in which the vows are taken, there is no difference in their practice of combining sutra and tantra and upholding the three sets of vows in order to develop inner qualities of realization.

 

With regard to the way they practise, the great master Padmasambhava, who was like a second buddha, said this:

 

'Outwardly, practise according to the sutras,

Be meticulous about cause and effect, and what you adopt or avoid.

Inwardly, practise according to the unsurpassable secret mantra,

It is important to combine generation and completion.

Secretly, practise according to the great secret Atiyoga,

And gain liberation in a body of light within a single lifetime.'"

 

And...

 

"Generally speaking, for those who have set out upon the path of Dharma, the source of all learning lies in reading and writing, so training in these disciplines is emphasized from an early age. Then one should go on to study something of the general sciences and put great effort into the study and contemplation of the uncommon principles of sutra and mantra and so on, until reaching a good understanding of the key points, regardless of how long it takes."

 

And all of that was with minimal searching... there's no doubt he says much more than you are alluding to.

[RongzomFan]

And all of that was with minimal searching... there's no doubt he says much more than you are alluding to.

 

Yes, for example Dudjom Rinpoche says the Menngagde is superior to Longde and Semde.

 

Dudjom Rinpoche supports this point of view by citing the Supreme Array of Ati (a ti bkod pa chen po):

 

 

0 Vajrapani! If the Pith Instruction Class is not established,

There will be those who cling to deliberate examination [Mind Class],

And in particular, those who will believe in nothing at all [Vast Expanse Class].

Therefore, this definitive secret essence [Pith Instruction Class]-

Like a butter lamp amid darkness,

Like an elephant among oxen,

Like a lion among wild animals,

Or like a horseman among those on foot-

Is

superior

to them all.

Edited February 4, 2014 by RongzomFan

[RongzomFan]

And all of that was with minimal searching... there's no doubt he says much more than you are alluding to.

 

With minimal searching, you should understand Dudjom Rinpoche has an entire book devoted to comparing and contrasting the Nyingma yanas.

[asunthatneversets]

With minimal searching, you should understand Dudjom Rinpoche has an entire book devoted to comparing and contrasting the Nyingma yanas.

 

I'm well aware.

[asunthatneversets]

Yes, for example Dudjom Rinpoche says the Menngagde is superior to Longde and Semde.

 

Dudjom Rinpoche supports this point of view by citing the Supreme Array of Ati (a ti bkod pa chen po):

 

0 Vajrapani! If the Pith Instruction Class is not established, There will be those who cling to deliberate examination [Mind Class], And in particular, those who will believe in nothing at all [Vast Expanse Class]. Therefore, this definitive secret essence [Pith Instruction Class]Like a butter lamp amid darkness, Like an elephant among oxen, Like a lion among wild animals, Or like a horseman among those on footIs superior to them all.

 

Right, but this is a common practice in texts, establishing so-called lower and higher views in order to allow for a separation of tenets and principles. How else can a particular system be defined other than in reference to related systems? It doesn't mean he forsakes sems sde, or klong sde. Nor does it mean he forsakes the pāramitāyāna or vajrayāna (which the system of dzogpa chenpo is a part of).

[RongzomFan]

This point of view of this thread is somewhat deceptive, for although it is said that Tantra is superior to Sutra, pure Dzogchen is superior to tantra.

 

Dzogchen is tantra. Ever heard of the 17 tantras?

 

When ChNN and Bon people contrast Dzogchen with tantra they are talking about them in terms of vehicles.

[RongzomFan]

Right, but this is a common practice in texts, establishing so-called lower and higher views in order to allow for a separation of tenets and principles. How else can a particular system be defined other than in reference to related systems?

 

Ok good. Then we agree.

[idiot_stimpy]

I love Sutra

[asunthatneversets]

Dzogchen is tantra. Ever heard of the 17 tantras?

 

When ChNN and Bon people contrast Dzogchen with tantra they are talking about them in terms of vehicles.

 

The fact that the Dzogchen scriptures are called 'tantras' doesn't mean Dzogchen is tantric per se. Sutric texts are called 'sutras' because they are regarded as records of the oral teachings of Buddha Śākyamuni, and therefore they are in the form of scriptural narratives and discourses between Śākyamuni and his disciples.

 

The seventeen tantras are called 'tantras' because they are definitive texts found within the context of esoteric systems which pass down their exercises, practices, rituals and so on, directly from teacher to student via word of mouth. Those transmissions however were often given with the aid of materials such as booklets, leaflets, pictures and other symbolic implements., those manuals can be called 'tantras'.

 

So the term in that context carries a different meaning than the body of teachings known as 'tantra'.

[RongzomFan]

The fact that the Dzogchen scriptures are called 'tantras' doesn't mean Dzogchen is tantric per se. Sutric texts are called 'sutras' because they are regarded as records of the oral teachings of Buddha Śākyamuni, and therefore they are in the form of scriptural narratives and discourses between Śākyamuni and his disciples.

 

The seventeen tantras are called 'tantras' because they are definitive texts found within the context of esoteric systems which pass down their exercises, practices, rituals and so on, directly from teacher to student via word of mouth. Those transmissions however were often given with the aid of materials such as booklets, leaflets, pictures and other symbolic implements., those manuals can be called 'tantras'.

 

So the term in that context carries a different meaning than the body of teachings known as 'tantra'.

 

Of course Dzogchen is tantra.

 

Namdrol, whom you respect, used to call Dzogchen tantra all the time on Esangha.

 

Pretty much every other post.

 

Dzogchen is based on tantras, has esoteric anatomy, has empowerments etc.

 

Now, ChNN and Bon use "tantra" to refer to the path of the 2 stages. In that context, Dzogchen is not tantra.

Edited February 4, 2014 by RongzomFan

[asunthatneversets]

Norbu Rinpoche usually defines Sutra as the path of renunciation, Tantra as the path of transformation and Dzogchen as the path of self-liberation.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

With regard to the way they practise, the great master Padmasambhava, who was like a second buddha, said this:

 

'Outwardly, practise according to the sutras,

Be meticulous about cause and effect, and what you adopt or avoid.

Inwardly, practise according to the unsurpassable secret mantra,

It is important to combine generation and completion.

Secretly, practise according to the great secret Atiyoga,

And gain liberation in a body of light within a single lifetime.'"

Bump.

[Anderson]

CNNr explains tantra as a continuity or something which continues.

With this understanding in mind dzogchen texts are called tantras because they are the word of the realized ones who've been transmitted in a continuous fashion from master to disciple .

This character of continuity of transmission is what makes them tantras and not that , as some would have you believe , they are methods of transformation.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Anderson

[Simple_Jack]

@ RongzomFan, asunthatneversets, Anderson

 

Since Dzogchen is being discussed, I was wondering the number of times, you've heard ChNN mention that Garab Dorje was an emanation of Shakyamuni Buddha?

 

For anyone who's unfamiliar with the 12 Dzogchen Buddhas categorization: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=13899

Edited February 4, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[asunthatneversets]

@ RongzomFan, asunthatneversets, Anderson

 

Since Dzogchen is being discussed, I was wondering the number of times, you've heard ChNN mention that Garab Dorje was an emanation of Shakyamuni Buddha?

 

For anyone who's unfamiliar with the 12 Dzogchen Buddhas categorization: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=13899

 

 

Śākyamuni and Garab Dorje are held to be a nirmaṇakāya emanations of Vajradhāra, and Vajradhāra is in turn an emanation of the primordial buddha Samantabhadra.

[Simple_Jack]

Śākyamuni and Garab Dorje are held to be a nirmaṇakāya emanations of Vajradhāra, and Vajradhāra is in turn an emanation of the primordial buddha Samantabhadra.

 

Ok, but as far as you know, ChNN is the only teacher that calls Garab Dorje an emanation of Shakyamuni Buddha?

[Simple_Jack]

I remember Malcolm mentioning that there might be a prediction of Shakyamuni's emanation in the commentary to the "sgra thal gyur": http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8560

Edited February 4, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Anderson]

I remember Malcolm mentioning that there might be a prediction of Shakyamuni's emanation in the commentary to the "sgra thal gyur": http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8560]http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8560[/url]

This is unclear.

 

Because so far nobody could provide a definite scriptural proof that this is so, that is, Garab Dorje being an emanation of Sakyamuni...

Edited February 4, 2014 by Anderson

[RongzomFan]

This is unclear.

 

Because so far nobody could provide a definite scriptural proof that this is so, that is, Garab Dorje being an emanation of Sakyamuni...

 

Garab Dorje and Shakyamuni are both emanations of Vajradhara.

Edited February 4, 2014 by RongzomFan