RongzomFan Posted February 12, 2014 Longchenpa and Jigme Lingpa are certainly considered to be key figures of the system. Absolutely not. Before Jigme Lingpa, Gonpa Zangthal was the primary nyingthig system. Longchenpa was not even that popular before Jigme Lingpa. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) Malcolm: Longchenpa "too influenced by sarma" http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5637&p=63968&hilit=Longchenpa+sarma#p63960 Malcolm: Superiority of Gonpa Zangthal to Longchenpa http://www.atikosha.org/2012/09/a-preliminary-note-on-vimalamitras.html http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7522&p=89675&hilit=Wangpo#p89675 Edited February 12, 2014 by RongzomFan 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
asunthatneversets Posted February 12, 2014 I already linked to several posts of Malcolm. You are clearly not correct. Both links you provided only cited that Dzogchen does not accept the two truths schematic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 12, 2014 Both links you provided only cited that Dzogchen does not accept the two truths schematic. What about this one? http://vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1195&hilit=Rongzom&start=10#p13857 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
asunthatneversets Posted February 12, 2014 Malcolm: Longchenpa "too influenced by sarma" http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5637&p=63968&hilit=Longchenpa+sarma#p63960 Malcolm: Superiority of Gonpa Zangthal to Longchenpa http://www.atikosha.org/2012/09/a-preliminary-note-on-vimalamitras.html http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7522&p=89675&hilit=Wangpo#p89675 This does not mean that Longchenpa is not considered to be a key figure in Dzogchen. Is he the end all be all? Of course not, but to say he isn't a major figure in the history of the teachings is reaching. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) This does not mean that Longchenpa is not considered to be a key figure in Dzogchen. Is he the end all be all? Of course not, but to say he isn't a major figure in the history of the teachings is reaching. You said him and Jigme Lingpa are "the key figures". That's B.S. Yeah, maybe now in modern times, but not before Jigme Lingpa lived. Edited February 12, 2014 by RongzomFan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
asunthatneversets Posted February 12, 2014 What about this one? http://vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1195&hilit=Rongzom&start=10#p13857 Rongzompa is criticizing the praxis of Madhyamaka. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 12, 2014 Rongzompa is criticizing the praxis of Madhyamaka. Which is the 2 truths. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
asunthatneversets Posted February 12, 2014 You said him and Jigme Lingpa are "the key figures". That's B.S. Yeah, maybe now in modern times, but not before Jigme Lingpa lived. They are 'key figures', not 'the key figures'. You're taking the statement out of context and presenting it as if I claimed they were the only two key figures, which is a straw man argument. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 12, 2014 They are 'key figures', not 'the key figures'. You're taking the statement out of context and presenting it as if I claimed they were the only two key figures, which is a straw man argument. I apologize. You called them the "the original adepts". Which I am still laughing at. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
asunthatneversets Posted February 12, 2014 Which is the 2 truths. Within the praxis. However since Madhyamaka accepts neither relative nor ultimate truths to be truly valid. It is merely the praxis which is being addressed. As was noted; that if Rongzom had access to Candrakīrti's other works at that time, he would have agreed with Candrakīrti's ultimate position on this matter. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
asunthatneversets Posted February 12, 2014 I apologize. You called them the "the original adepts". Which I am still laughing at. They are certainly more original in comparison to Dudjom Rinpoche and masters of our era. Which was my point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 12, 2014 As was noted; that if Rongzom had access to Candrakīrti's other works at that time, he would have agreed with Candrakīrti's ultimate position on this matter. Yes, and Malcolm disagreed with that idea. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 12, 2014 They are certainly more original in comparison to Dudjom Rinpoche and masters of our era. Which was my point. How so? Dudjom Rinpoche was a crazy mystical terton just like Longchenpa or Jigme Lingpa. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
asunthatneversets Posted February 12, 2014 Yes, and Malcolm disagreed with that idea. Yes I misread that. It was a conjectured statement from Mayajala (who's understanding isn't very refined) to begin with. The bottom line is that the praxis of Madhyamaka and the praxis of Dzogchen are dissimilar. But their views are ultimately in agreement. The same cannot be said for gzhan stong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) The same cannot be said for gzhan stong. Don't worry Other Emptiness and Madhyamaka are both equally false for me. Both are sutra. Edited February 12, 2014 by RongzomFan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
asunthatneversets Posted February 12, 2014 Don't worry Other Emptiness and Madhyamaka are both equally false for me. Both are sutra. Tantra is a different path to the same end, as is Atiyoga. All are the buddhadharma, and so none are 'false'. Some just take longer than others, but as there are varying individuals with varying capacities, the varying teachings are a blessing. Your contention that they are 'false' is a ultimately a counterproductive view to hold. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
asunthatneversets Posted February 12, 2014 How so? Dudjom Rinpoche was a crazy mystical terton just like Longchenpa or Jigme Lingpa. The title 'original' usually goes to who or what came first. Therein lies the logic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 12, 2014 Malcolm: Longchenpa "too influenced by sarma" http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5637&p=63968&hilit=Longchenpa+sarma#p63960 Malcolm: Superiority of Gonpa Zangthal to Longchenpa http://www.atikosha.org/2012/09/a-preliminary-note-on-vimalamitras.html http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7522&p=89675&hilit=Wangpo#p89675 bump Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 12, 2014 Your contention that they are 'false' is a ultimately a counterproductive view to hold. I told Malcolm personally I threw Madhyamaka in the trash can, and he loved it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) The title 'original' usually goes to who or what came first. Therein lies the logic. False logic. Gonpa Zangthal is chronologically later than Longchenpa, but is a throwback to Nyi 'bum's Eleven Subjects before Longchenpa fucked with it. http://www.atikosha.org/2012/09/a-preliminary-note-on-vimalamitras.html Edited February 12, 2014 by RongzomFan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
asunthatneversets Posted February 12, 2014 bump Quite unnecessary to bump. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
asunthatneversets Posted February 12, 2014 False logic. Gonpa Zangthal is chronologically later than Longchenpa, but is a throwback to Nyi 'bum's Eleven Subjects before Longchenpa fucked with it. http://www.atikosha.org/2012/09/a-preliminary-note-on-vimalamitras.html We weren't comparing the Gonpa Zangthal to anything. What was being addressed is the subject of Dzogchenpas taking gzhan stong to be a definitive view. Which they do not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
asunthatneversets Posted February 12, 2014 I told Malcolm personally I threw Madhyamaka in the trash can, and he loved it. Congratulations. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) What was being addressed is the subject of Dzogchenpas taking gzhan stong to be a definitive view. Which they do not. No, you said the majority of the key Dzogchen adepts held the Prasanga view . I mentioned Dudjom Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse, Jamyang Khentse Wangpo, Jamgon Kongtrul etc. as a counterexample. I don't care about Madhyamaka or Other Emptiness. They are both equally false sutra level teachings. The actual subject at hand was Rongzom and Madhyamaka. Edited February 12, 2014 by RongzomFan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
