Anderson Posted February 4, 2014 Garab Dorje and Shakyamuni are both emanations of Vajradhara. We are talking about scriptural proof where it says "garab dorje is a emanation of sakyamuni" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 4, 2014 what does any of this have to do with the thread? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anderson Posted February 4, 2014 what does any of this have to do with the thread? Don't know. I just picked up on something someone said about this thing... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 4, 2014 yes, Simple_jack is the culprit Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anderson Posted February 4, 2014 Yeah... Simple_Jack stop giving us reasons to go off topic Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 4, 2014 I love Sutra Like what? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted February 4, 2014 yes, Simple_jack is the culprit Yeah... Simple_Jack stop giving us reasons to go off topic 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tibetan_Ice Posted February 9, 2014 Dzogchen is tantra. Ever heard of the 17 tantras? When ChNN and Bon people contrast Dzogchen with tantra they are talking about them in terms of vehicles. Alwaysoff, The statement "Dzogchen is tantra" is the type of statement that I'd expect from you. Here, Tulku Pema Rigtsal is contrasting "tantras" with pure Dzogchen, and he calls sutras and tantras a 'lower approach'. 3.10 PRACTITIONERS OF THE LOWER APPROACHES ARE BOUND BY STRENUOUS EFFORT Nothing that is taught in the sutras and tantras—the emptiness free of conceptual elaboration, the creative stage, fulfillment stage, the fulfillment stage with signs, energy control and yoga, and so on—goes beyond eliminating, modifying, or transforming thought. When we actually look at those lower-approach meditators, all of whom make distinctions between antidotes and what is to be rejected, we see that, from the perspective of effortless Dzogchen, they are all afflicted by the sickness of subtle striving. No matter how profound the stages and paths of these lesser approaches, during the main practice of meditation on the view, some thoughts are sent off only to be welcomed anew, or one set of thoughts is exchanged for another. There can be no going beyond this subtle dualistic clinging to thoughts. Longchenpa, in The Heart-Essence of Vimalamitra, quoting the rigzin Garab Dorje, says, “Intellectual control of meditation that opens upon the view is so fatiguing!” If only our thoughts were naturally released instantaneously as they arise, like a drawing written in water, then informal contemplation itself would become the antidote to our most subtle proclivities toward dualistic perception. Conduct assimilated on the path of practice during the present period of training, which sustains the reflexive release of whatever arises during informal contemplation, is the condition of buddha—the complete identity of formal and informal contemplation. Rigtsal, Tulku Pema (2013-02-19). The Great Secret of Mind: Special Instructions on the Nonduality of Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 4138-4150). Snow Lion. Kindle Edition. Note: He is not saying that sutras and trantras don't have their place and can be cast aside, in other parts of the book he says that one should have a solid foundation, a foundation which is tailored to the level of the practitioner. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 9, 2014 Like I said, it depends if you are talking about a vehicle or a class of literature. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted February 10, 2014 Speaking of Dzogchen tantras, here's good news from Malcolm: http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=61&p=16041&sid=21cdd87a40a638d5a6730d45503ffaf3#p16041 "... However, one text from that collection, Intrinsically Clear Wisdom, The Aural Lineage of Vimalamitra, will be published to launch to our new Imprint, Zangthal Editions. Check back here for more info. After that, we plan to release the Rigpa Rangshar and the Rigpa Rangdrol in one volume in a limited hardcover edition some time next fall. The deal with Intrinsically Clear Wisdom, The Aural Lineage of Vimalamitra is that if you have not had instructions on Dzogchen trekchö and thögal from a qualified master, you won't understand it and so you shouldn't buy it. But as of this juncture we are not policing people. That could change and we will let you know." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idiot_stimpy Posted February 10, 2014 If everything has the same taste then there can be no higher or lower. Everything is valid, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yabyum24 Posted February 10, 2014 Like I said, it depends if you are talking about a vehicle or a class of literature. Yes, but let's qualify it. A class of literature is fine, and I'm cool with that. It's just that tantra and Vajrayana are commonly understood to refer to Highest Yoga Tantra, the system of Yidam generation & 6 Yogas completion stage, As Tibetan Ice flagged up in the quote. It seems rather incongruous. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted February 10, 2014 Yes, but let's qualify it. A class of literature is fine, and I'm cool with that. It's just that tantra and Vajrayana are commonly understood to refer to Highest Yoga Tantra, the system of Yidam generation & 6 Yogas completion stage, As Tibetan Ice flagged up in the quote. It seems rather incongruous. The Guhyagarbha Tantra, is very important, in the Dzogchen lineages. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yabyum24 Posted February 10, 2014 The Guhyagarbha Tantra, is very important, in the Dzogchen lineages. I assume that would be Atiyoga? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted February 10, 2014 I assume that would be Atiyoga? Mahayoga -- http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Guhyagarbha_Tantra. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 10, 2014 It's just that tantra and Vajrayana are commonly understood to refer to Highest Yoga Tantra, the system of Yidam generation & 6 Yogas completion stage, As Tibetan Ice flagged up in the quote. Actually I am pretty sure they are talking about Mahayoga and Anuyoga Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Mahayoga -- http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Guhyagarbha_Tantra. http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Hundred_peaceful_and_wrathful_deities Guhyagarbha contains the view of Dzogchen, this is why the thirteenth chapter of Guhyagarbha emphasizes that the mandala has always been naturally formed* [ye nas lhun grub] . So it is a very different approach. It is not really the approach of the two stages. - Loppon Malcolm "The wonder of it! This marvelous, astounding event/reality (Dharma): From that which involves no origination, everything originates; and in that very origination, there is no origination! The wonder of it! In it's very enduring, there is no enduring! The wonder of it! In it's very cessation, there is no cessation!" - Guhyagarbha Tantra Vimalamitra states [per Malcolm]: "Everything arose from non-arising; even arising itself never arose." *http://vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=1203&start=150 FYI, I have deprecated this rendering in favor of "naturally perfected" because of a commentarial passage I found in the commentary of the klong drug tantra. - Malcolm Edited February 10, 2014 by Simple_Jack 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yabyum24 Posted February 10, 2014 Mahayoga -- http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Guhyagarbha_Tantra. Seems odd for a Dzogchen tantra to be Mahayoga. I wouldn't expect that. Are the completion stage practices the standard tummo etc or the specific Dzogchen ones? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 10, 2014 Completion stage is karmamudra. See guide to the words of my perfect teacher. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yabyum24 Posted February 10, 2014 Completion stage is karmamudra. See guide to the words of my perfect teacher. Really? Are you sure that's genuine Dzogchen? It's just that I've always understood Dzogchen as not requiring such 'means-to-an-end'. Why do you need that if you have direct introduction? Surely it's redundant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 10, 2014 I didnt say it was dzogchen. I said it was completion stage. I think you are mixing what im saying with Simple Jack Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Seems odd for a Dzogchen tantra to be Mahayoga. I wouldn't expect that. Are the completion stage practices the standard tummo etc or the specific Dzogchen ones? He should have said it was a nyingma tantra, not dzogchen Edited February 10, 2014 by RongzomFan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yabyum24 Posted February 10, 2014 I didnt say it was dzogchen. I said it was completion stage. I think you are mixing what im saying with Simple Jack Yeah, I'm totally confused... I didn't think it could be Dzogchen. I mean you guys have got those dark retreats, lights and stuff. I know it's secret and you don't discuss it but what little I've heard, is very different from HYT. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Really? Are you sure that's genuine Dzogchen? It's just that I've always understood Dzogchen as not requiring such 'means-to-an-end'. Why do you need that if you have direct introduction? Surely it's redundant. He should have said it was a nyingma tantra, not dzogchen I didn't mean to imply that this was a Dzogchen tantra. Although, zhitro is an important terma revelation, that has a direct correlation with Dzogchen. Edited February 10, 2014 by Simple_Jack Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yabyum24 Posted February 10, 2014 Well, I'm glad that's cleared up. I was about to whizz an email off to Malcolm but it looks like I can leave him in peace now. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
