Jhana in Taoism?

[Kajenx]

Hi everyone! I've always liked this site (though I don't post very much, haha) and I thought I'd come here for some discussion about some experiences I've been having. I've been in and out of the Dharma Overground website reading posts there, and while jhana is definitely a big topic over there, I almost feel like what I've found makes more sense from a Taoist perspective (maybe because I've just been more attached to the philosophy, haha).

 

I should preface by saying I'm not an expert/adept/whatever mediator by any means. I started meditating around the middle of last year and I never took it too seriously or expected anything much out of it, I just kind of liked that it was relaxing. I really only did about 10-15 minutes every day, and was satisfied that it was a nice practice to keep going.

 

But then, around the new year, I sat to meditate because I was experiencing some anxiety, and almost immediately when I started, I had a blast of some kind of amazing euphoria, like waves of happiness and relief washing up and down my body. It was earth-shattering, to say the least, and I never would have believed it could be possible to feel that way. This feeling must have lasted around a minute, maybe less (I definitely wasn't paying attention to the time ^^) and then it sort of spread out into an effortless awareness, and I just sat on my couch, staring at things in my room, wondering what the hell had just happened, haha. It was later at night when I'd sat to meditate, so that state of mind lasted for the rest of the few hours I stayed up, and then I went to bed. I even did my exercise routine and was just fascinated by everything I felt.

 

Basically it seemed like everything was perfect, always had been perfect, and always would be perfect forever in the future.

 

So, I spent the next day googling fanatically, haha, and the best explanation I could come up with was, MAYBE the first jhana? I didn't read about anyone having after effects with jhana, but it still seemed like the best description. What I'm a bit confused about, though, is that the methods people talk about to get into jhana are very foreign to me. When I meditate, I basically just sit down and try to let go of everything. If I have a thought or a feeling, I step out of it and watch it, and then let it go, or stay, whatever - we're supposed to be natural and accepting, right? Lol. But the Buddhists all talk about focusing on the breath and trying to increase concentration by stopping their thoughts and outside distractions, and I don't feel like this could apply to what I'm doing at all - this is actually the method I used to see suggested the most on meditation websites/books, but it never felt very good to me. I feel like when I sit down I do the exact opposite of concentrate... I've never felt like my thinking stopped at any point during meditation, more like I just kind of stopped putting effort behind the thoughts and just let them drift around like smoke in my head. For a while I was doing some body scanning, but I would usually let go of that, too, after I'd calmed down a bit from the normal noise of the day.

 

Anyway, I've been able to get this experience to happen again a number of times while I'm meditating, and it's actually become an almost routine experience to get a really nice feeling - both physical and mental. I'm more attuned to it now, so it isn't so dramatic, but once in a while it'll hit hard again. It's always when I find myself "letting go" the most that it's the most successful too, which really makes me think of wu wei. "Effortless action" is the best way to describe the feeling after meditation. It's also started to show up outside of meditation as well, though. I've had a few times while I'm programming and I realized I have a sort of background feeling of contentment, and when I close my eyes it just kind of wells up and washes over me for a while.

 

There was a week or so after the first event when I was trying really hard to get the feeling back, and I kept trying to force it when I'd sit. Sometimes it kind of worked but felt...tainted? Like I was trying too hard or something and it didn't want to come. When I finally clued into the fact that the feeling itself WAS "letting go" it became much easier to find it. I've had some ups and downs over the past month and I've been meditating quite a lot more than I used to, but I feel like I'm really starting to understand the mind-state. For the last few days, whenever I have a negative emotion or feeling, I just ignore any reasons behind it and let it be a physical feeling without judgments. Generally it dissipates within a minute or so. I used to do this a lot before, but it seems to work so much better now. I should also say that the mind-state "under" the euphoric feelings is almost completely emotionless. When they talk about the Tao being "empty", this is what I might imagine they're talking about. I know emptiness is a big topic in Buddhism as well, so I wonder if I might be doing some kind of insight meditation? I really don't have any idea, but it seems to be working - whatever it might be, haha...

 

Anyway, this has already turned into a novel, but I'd just like to know if anyone else has had any similar experiences, or might be able to say how this fits into some or other tradition. I looked into the progress of insight and such in Theravada Buddhism, but I haven't been able to relate to the descriptions of vibrations, or understanding reality in any new way (except that, maybe, things seem more "real" if that makes any sense?)

Edited February 4, 2014 by Kajenx

[Eternity]

Hi Kajenx,

 

 

I will start by saying that i too am not an adept meditator. That being said i have some experience training jhana over the course of one year and am a bit familiar with the lower states.

 

 

Normally entering into jhana is preceeded by access concentration. Here your attention in more or less fixed on the object of meditation. Some thoughts may be floating around but they are not pulling you away in my experience from the object in any major way. Now it has been my experience that immediatly preceeding entry into the first jhana A sign like a whitish cloud, star or mist (rough description here) becomes visible behind closed eyes. If you chase after it in my experience it goes away. Entry into the first jhana is accompanied by a sort of easy going bliss and joyous feeling that permeates your body. Once established in this state your awareness is on the obiect of meditation effortlessly and your field of vision becomes immersed in brightness compared to regular relaxing with eyes closed. I find that the appearence of the sign, the brightening of my field of awareness and the nice feeling arising and permeating my body as well as acute awareness of the object of meditation are all solid indicators that i am 'flirting' around first jhana. Does any of this sound familiar to you?

 

In contrast, insight into the object for me is very different. For example, the first time i experienced insight into the breath i thought wow, there is no in/out... Its all one continous flow of stuff. Senations simply become like little pulses one after the other each one a part of the prevoius one (very hard to put into words) so that you see everything is connected to that which came before and that which comes after. Yet, no one sensation is permanent. The insight has stuck with me to this day despite not practicing vipassana anymore. Insight really involves not only concentrating on the object but observing one or all of the three characteristics of impermanence, no self, and suffering. I think of it as book learning vs jhana as leaving the chaos of normal awareness behind and taking a seat at the controls.

 

The realness you experience may simply be full presence. Dharma overground is a neat site if your into samatha and vipassana.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Eternity

[Kajenx]

Yeah, see, I don't know that either of those really match up for me. I've never seen any lights or felt like I could feel any vibrations or energy flows or any of these other things I keep reading about. I'm not really sure I'm actually concentrating on anything in particular. Mainly, I just sit, and whatever seems to be moving in my mind I just let go of it, or maybe "step behind" it and watch it without letting it be a good or bad thing? Maybe this is observing "no self"? I feel like I can step out of my bad moods pretty easily these days.

 

What throws me the most is how closely the experience resembles the jhana factors. In one meditation I started with the very strong euphoria for a minute or so, then the bodily feeling kind of peeled away and it was a kind of mental bliss. Then there was a sinking feeling as everything mellowed out and I was just floating in an emotionless state. That emotionless state is what I felt after the first experience, and that was when I realized it was what's generally sitting under everthing else that's going on in my mind usually. I slipped into that mind-state a few times kind of randomly during the day but it was very unstable as my excitement about it tends to add something back on top of it, haha.

 

Something else I should add is, sometimes after the blissful feeling, if it isn't very strong especially, my eyes will start vibrating very rapidly and I get these bizzare feelings all over my body. My arms and legs feel like they're being stretched too far or something. It's all been a bit of a roller coaster ride this last month, haha, who knew just sitting there could be so interesting!

 

edit: Maybe I'll post this on DO too and see what they say.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Kajenx

[Eternity]

What your saying sounds very interesting. Could you please describe to me in more detail what you mean by letting go or stepping behind? I would love to run a few experiments on myself as see where it leads. It sounds like you are doing something similar to what they call zuowang as mentioned by chuang tzu. I am very curious to know if this is the case.

 

Jhana is habitually referred to when pinpointing your attention on one thing (not forcefully of course) to the exclusion of others. Perhaps try staying on the breath for 30 min and report results? It would be one way to compare traditional methods for entering jhana with what you are doing now.

 

Does this look similar to what you are doing?

 

http://www.oldoakdao.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Zuowang_-_Shi_Jing.176122155.pdf

Edited February 4, 2014 by Eternity

[NotVoid]

"Jhana in Taoism?"

Hi kajenx. Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, Taoism is not one single homogenous set of views and practices. There have been and are different branches and sects with various roots and influences, and so there can be a fair bit of variance in views and practices within Taoism.

My way of looking at things is that different traditions may have quite different views and practices on the surface, but all are likely working to some degree at least with a common underlying 'substrate' of experience. Whether any particular Taoist branch or sect has 'surface views' which are close in some way or not to the concept of the four jhanas I don't know, but there should likely be at least some commonality in the deeper underlying experiences.

Regarding experiences in meditation, I would say that we should be very cautious about trying to draw conclusions too quickly about any experiences we may be having in meditation. There can be a tendency to try to relate experiences we are having to descriptions of different states or signs or levels that are described about meditation, and if we see some similarities we may be inclined to assume too quickly that what we are experiencing is the same or a very similar type of experience. Often times those states that are being described are descriptions of states which may sound quite 'basic' on the surface, but which may actually be pointing to a much deeper degree of experience which can't be so easily described in words. So, although there may seem to be some similarities to what is being described, we may be experiencing something else. Also, sometimes in meditation we can get glimpses of deeper states, but because we are not really fully there yet in various ways, we are only able to get glimpses of what potentially is to come further along. Generally when one truly reaches a certain state, there will be little doubt that one has achieved that state, and when reading a description of that state left as a sign post by some former master, you will understand better the deeper meaning of what is being conveyed. This is of course just based on my own personal limited understanding and experiences with such things however.

Edited February 4, 2014 by NotVoid

[Seeker of Wisdom]

What I'm a bit confused about, though, is that the methods people talk about to get into jhana are very foreign to me. When I meditate, I basically just sit down and try to let go of everything. If I have a thought or a feeling, I step out of it and watch it, and then let it go, or stay, whatever - we're supposed to be natural and accepting, right? Lol. But the Buddhists all talk about focusing on the breath and trying to increase concentration by stopping their thoughts and outside distractions, and I don't feel like this could apply to what I'm doing at all - this is actually the method I used to see suggested the most on meditation websites/books, but it never felt very good to me. I feel like when I sit down I do the exact opposite of concentrate... I've never felt like my thinking stopped at any point during meditation, more like I just kind of stopped putting effort behind the thoughts and just let them drift around like smoke in my head.

Actually, that sounds like one of the methods used in Buddhism - resting the mind in its natural state. This entails watching all mental events without aversion, attachment, or trying to control what happens, while paying no attention to sensory experiences.

 

That's a shamatha practice, just like focusing on the breath or a visualised image. Only, the focus is more of a byproduct of allowing the mind to settle than actively trying to focus. But even mindfulness of breathing should never be forceful, and distractions are released rather than repressed.

 

I should also say that the mind-state "under" the euphoric feelings is almost completely emotionless. When they talk about the Tao being "empty", this is what I might imagine they're talking about. I know emptiness is a big topic in Buddhism as well, so I wonder if I might be doing some kind of insight meditation?

You're misunderstanding what is meant by emptiness. It's not a 'thing' as such, like 'here's emptiness', 'I am experiencing emptiness', like some massive void.

 

Emptiness refers to how all things have no inherent essence, they only exist and manifest properties in interdependent origination. A table has no table-ness, it only exists as a result of carpentry and cause of other things.

 

If you realise emptiness, you will know it 100%.

 

Resting the mind in its natural state is more for shamatha than vipashyana, but you can get insights welling up as the mind clears.

 

Mainly, I just sit, and whatever seems to be moving in my mind I just let go of it, or maybe "step behind" it and watch it without letting it be a good or bad thing? Maybe this is observing "no self"?

Well done! But this isn't no-self.

 

Again, it's not a 'thing' to find or experience. Like emptiness, it's simply a truth which you can realise. No-self refers to there being no absolute essence or centre to a person. We have a belief that 'I am this', 'I have that', 'I do this'. But actually a person is a bundle of processes.

 

Take seeing an apple. It's the eye that receives the image, visual consciousness that forms a mental picture, conception that thinks 'that's an apple'... But we believe 'I am seeing this apple' as though we are some kind of core which owns all those processes. The truth is that 'we' are only mental and physical processes working interdependently, with no self behind them all.

 

---

 

I don't think that your experience was jhana. Jhana is a really advanced state of utter focus, with all the jhana factors highly developed. It's possible to experience jhana a little bit before actually having access concentration, but it doesn't sound from your description like your mind inverted into the substrate consciousness, which is a main feature of access concentration and the jhanas.

 

This is just one of the many experiences that can come up as the mind and body clears out the crud.

 

However, you are definitely doing very well. Keep going. Don't try to change, cause or avoid any particular thoughts, emotions, desires or other experiences that come up in this practice. Let those clouds pass through the sky of your awareness.

 

If you want to learn more about shamatha and the jhanas, I recommend http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Attention-Revolution-Unlocking-Focused/dp/0861712765/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1391533088&sr=8-2&keywords=attention

[gatito]

Couple of comments that might be useful: -

 

It sounds like you've had a "partial glimpse" of the Truth (of reality - nonduality). Incidentally, a "glimpse" is also sometimes labelled enlightenment.

 

Rather confusingly, a "full glimpse" is nirvikalpa samadhi (timeless, objectless, impersonal Consciousness), which is also sometimes labelled enlightenment.

 

What you describe as your method of meditation bears a strong resemblance to something that is labelled as releasing and the best known proponent of this was Lester Levinson (I'll leave you to do your own search for the details).

[Harmonious Emptiness]

can't help you with Buddhist jhanas, but from what you've said, it sounds to me like your energy meridians finally reached a state of relaxation and the natural medicines in the body started to circulate, resulting in the euphoric feeling and nourished mind-state.

 

My suggestion - keep meditating, look at the feeling sort of like food - you don't eat and then think all day about the food in your stomach - you just let it do it's work. Continue to practice and let the feeling bring about "inner smile" and carry that with you in your daily practice (walking around, being being, etc.).

 

You could look at those stages like a day too - beginning of the day, end of the day, whatever - it's Tuesday!

[Kajenx]

Thank you for all the replies! This has been very helpful.

 

What your saying sounds very interesting. Could you please describe to me in more detail what you mean by letting go or stepping behind? I would love to run a few experiments on myself as see where it leads. It sounds like you are doing something similar to what they call zuowang as mentioned by chuang tzu. I am very curious to know if this is the case.

Jhana is habitually referred to when pinpointing your attention on one thing (not forcefully of course) to the exclusion of others. Perhaps try staying on the breath for 30 min and report results? It would be one way to compare traditional methods for entering jhana with what you are doing now.

Does this look similar to what you are doing?

http://www.oldoakdao.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Zuowang_-_Shi_Jing.176122155.pdf

 

That's it exactly! I did some research on Zuowang after I read that article, and a few sites said it was a kind of concentration meditation, and even compared it to Jhana. After I first learned about Jhana, I tried doing the breath meditation specifically (I wondered if I'd maybe been doing it without thinking about it) and it did seem to work. I could understand what they meant by being concentrated, and I got the euphoric feeling. However it felt too much like work compared to what I'd been doing before, and after reading this http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2011/01/yogi-tool-box-letting-go-approach-to.html I went back to my old method (since I felt a bit more justified doing it) and it worked a lot better. I even wrote a note to myself in my journal saying "Jhana is an adjective used to describe the state of mind that happens when you let go of everything. It isn't something you do actively, it's something that happens." I tried to remind myself not to go looking for it, but to, instead, try to let go of everything that was blocking it.

 

In terms of stepping behind, it almost feels like a little switch in my head. I'll be sitting there angry or worried about something and then, oh! I realize I don't need to be "worried" I can just be "tight in the chest" and remove the worry from it. That tightness is easy to accept along with any other little physical discomforts because they just come and go pretty naturally. I say "stepping behind" the emotion because that's almost what it feels like in a physical/mental way... Like I popped out of my head and I'm looking at my own mind. It's maybe not so dramatic, but these things can be hard to explain, you know? In the end it's basically just removing the reason behind a feeling and allowing the feeling to go on as itself without any real reason behind it.

 

 

Also, sometimes in meditation we can get glimpses of deeper states, but because we are not really fully there yet in various ways, we are only able to get glimpses of what potentially is to come further along. Generally when one truly reaches a certain state, there will be little doubt that one has achieved that state, and when reading a description of that state left as a sign post by some former master, you will understand better the deeper meaning of what is being conveyed.

 

This is my main reason for posting here, TBH. Jhana sounds right in terms of effects, but not in terms of method or signposts, so I was wondering if a different map might be helpful. Right now my thought is that it's probably a jhana-like experience, since there is much more similar than different in terms of description, but maybe since there is less concentration on a single object of concentration, the experience itself is more broad or spread out. Maybe Zouwang could be used to strengthen mindfulness, and anapanasati could be used to strengthen insight into individual characteristics of things?

 

 

Actually, that sounds like one of the methods used in Buddhism - resting the mind in its natural state. This entails watching all mental events without aversion, attachment, or trying to control what happens, while paying no attention to sensory experiences.

That's a shamatha practice, just like focusing on the breath or a visualised image. Only, the focus is more of a byproduct of allowing the mind to settle than actively trying to focus. But even mindfulness of breathing should never be forceful, and distractions are released rather than repressed.

 

This makes sense to me. I do actually feel myself "tuning in" in a way, or kind of snapping to attention. I admit I never fully understood what "concentration" meant in terms of meditating. I think there's just a lot of misinformation out there. especially coming from New Age type things, which I was exposed to a lot in high school. I think I had a negative view of it, TBH. Buddhist ideas on meditation make more sense if you think of everything in terms of "be gentle with yourself." It's easy to get lost in the idea of "discipline" as a bad thing. Maybe a better word to use for English speakers is "persistence", since discipline is also a word for punishment...

 

 

You're misunderstanding what is meant by emptiness. It's not a 'thing' as such, like 'here's emptiness', 'I am experiencing emptiness', like some massive void.

Emptiness refers to how all things have no inherent essence, they only exist and manifest properties in interdependent origination. A table has no table-ness, it only exists as a result of carpentry and cause of other things.

If you realise emptiness, you will know it 100%.

Resting the mind in its natural state is more for shamatha than vipashyana, but you can get insights welling up as the mind clears.

 

This is definitely what I meant to say. The non-judgmental emotionless state doesn't attach to anything, so after the second time I had the euphoria during the meditation, I spent the next three hours staring at my ceiling with a kind of perfect contentment. It wasn't anything but itself. Actually, I wrote myself a note that said something to the effect of: "When you have trouble, remember the painter behind the painting, the cotton seeds in your shirt - that messy perfection where everything is collage and paint splatters..." etc...it went on for a while. Maybe this still isn't correct? The mind state after meditation was much more interesting to me, TBH. I felt like everything was in 3D and I could actually see it for the first time - but even beyond that was the simple perfection or everything. It felt like it was the first time in my life I'd been completely without preoccupations.

 

I don't think that your experience was jhana. Jhana is a really advanced state of utter focus, with all the jhana factors highly developed. It's possible to experience jhana a little bit before actually having access concentration, but it doesn't sound from your description like your mind inverted into the substrate consciousness, which is a main feature of access concentration and the jhanas.

 

If you don't count the nimita as a jhana factor, then they really do seem to match up to me, but I'm not expert, for sure. "Unification of mind" and piti and sukha are present, I think. When the euphoria appears, I feel like I get lost in it mentally. There are always thoughts present, though, somewhere in the background. I've seen so many disagreements about what strength of the factors actually counts or what is and is not a nimita that I've done more to confuse myself than clarify anything. Like you said, I'll just keep going and see what happens, haha.

 

 

What you describe as your method of meditation bears a strong resemblance to something that is labelled as releasing and the best known proponent of this was Lester Levinson (I'll leave you to do your own search for the details).

 

This sounds a lot like loving kindness meditation. I have actually found that to be very helpful, as well. :3

 

 

My suggestion - keep meditating, look at the feeling sort of like food - you don't eat and then think all day about the food in your stomach - you just let it do it's work. Continue to practice and let the feeling bring about "inner smile" and carry that with you in your daily practice (walking around, being being, etc.).

 

I really like this! The food analogy makes a lot of sense actually. ^^

 

Thank you again for all the replies! This has all been very helpful. I know it's silly to get lost in methods, but sometimes I wondered if I might be doing something wrong because my methods didn't line up. I knew logically that didn't make any sense, but it's still nice to see that other people practice the same way and I'm not going down the wrong track. Whether or not I've hit any signposts isn't so much of a hang-up for me. In the future I'll just try to regard any new sensations as potential attachments that should be let go of and seen as themselves.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Kajenx

[NotVoid]

Hello Kajenx. What I personally think is that in this modern world we are taught from a young age to objectify and to use logic and to analyze until the cows come home. This can work well enough when trying to understand the physical world around us better. In my opinion when it comes to actual meditation practice however, we need to put aside this mode of analytical thinking and just find a meditation practice that we find suitable and practice it according to the way that particular meditation is to be practiced. Many forms of meditation may well require an experienced teacher as well to help keep the student on track. In regards to meditation experience, our analytical mind is more apt to lead us astray than to be of real help. In my experience in regards to meditation itself it is better to relax the mind and just practice. Rather than trying to focus on and analyze any experiences too much, just relax and do the meditation as it is to be done. Over time a new sort of awareness and understanding may develop completely on its own. Good luck in your practice.

Edited February 5, 2014 by NotVoid

[gatito]

 

<Snip>

 

This sounds a lot like loving kindness meditation. I have actually found that to be very helpful, as well. :3

 

<snip>

 

That's a very interesting analogy.

 

I'd never seen that connection before but you're right - it can be seen that way.

 

And Metta meditation will take you all the way incidentally - as will releasing.

 

BTW I like that so much that I'm going to pinch your idea and use it in my PPF when I open up the Metta thread (I'll credit you with making the connection though )

[yabyum24]

almost immediately when I started, I had a blast of some kind of amazing euphoria, like waves of happiness and relief washing up and down my body. It was earth-shattering, to say the least, and I never would have believed it could be possible to feel that way. This feeling must have lasted around a minute, maybe less (I definitely wasn't paying attention to the time ^^) and then it sort of spread out into an effortless awareness, and I just sat on my couch, staring at things in my room, wondering what the hell had just happened, haha. It was later at night when I'd sat to meditate, so that state of mind lasted for the rest of the few hours I stayed up, and then I went to bed. I even did my exercise routine and was just fascinated by everything I felt.

Hi Kajenx,

Has your subsequent meditation, since that incident improved or changed in any way?

 

the methods people talk about to get into jhana are very foreign to me.

There's a real divergence of opinion out there as to what constitutes first jhana. You need to look closely at One After Another as they occurred. This is the best description I've ever read for the stages of jhana. You can see that at no point is anyone 'zoning out' or swooning into unconsciousness, so you can ignore those who claim jhana = oblivion with no awareness and only knowledge of it when you subsequently arise out of it.

 

When I meditate, I basically just sit down and try to let go of everything. If I have a thought or a feeling, I step out of it and watch it, and then let it go, or stay, whatever - we're supposed to be natural and accepting, right? Lol.

This is an excellent method to attain jhana. It's called awareness release it combines nicely with a slight awareness of how the breath affects the body - movement etc. It also works on its own too.

 

But the Buddhists all talk about focusing on the breath and trying to increase concentration by stopping their thoughts and outside distractions, and I don't feel like this could apply to what I'm doing at all - this is actually the method I used to see suggested the most on meditation websites/books, but it never felt very good to me.

Some Buddhist do but there's a lot of misunderstanding out there. "Forcing" anything is wrong. Awareness of breath has no element of compulsion or desire for any outcome.

 

I feel like when I sit down I do the exact opposite of concentrate...

Right again. The word "concentrate" carries all the wrong connotations. It is awareness (vipassana) which notes what is happening in an impartial non-judgmental way. And release of all stress and tension which will take you deeper into tranquility (samatha). The two are dual components of the same process. Not separated out, like some insist.

 

I've never felt like my thinking stopped at any point during meditation

Thoughts don't cease until 2nd Jhana. See the sutta I linked to.

 

It's always when I find myself "letting go" the most that it's the most successful too,

Yeah. That's the one.

 

There was a week or so after the first event when I was trying really hard to get the feeling back, and I kept trying to force it when I'd sit. Sometimes it kind of worked but felt...tainted?

Yes because your ego is tainting it. The ego wants control of everything. Don't let it near your practice.

 

I might be doing some kind of insight meditation? I really don't have any idea, but it seems to be working - whatever it might be, haha...

Yes, the insight component is provided by your awareness. If you didn't have this you would sink into a dull torporific state, or blank out, like in deep sleep.

 

I haven't got a clue about Taoist levels, so I can't comment there.

 

It all sounds very positive. I'd keep on letting go in the way you have done so far.

[gatito]

^^^

 

This is pure gold.

 

This is written by someone who knows what they're saying (as opposed to only repeating something that they have read or heard).

 

This knowledge has been integrated.

 

Heed this advice well if you're interested in Jhana.

 

This level of integration is exceedingly rare.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Since I did mention energy, I should add, that you want to be master of your own energy without controlling it, like if Lao Tzu was emperor (actually the nation is considered synonymous with the body in the inner meanings of the Dao De Jing). You want to be master of it so that you can keep it happy and harmonious but you want it to be free and self sufficient, you want the people to start their own enterprises while you keep to the side and help them get started a little bit maybe if necessary.

 

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/yutang.html

 

(anyhow, the Dao De Jing helped me a lot in early stages of meditation..)

Edited February 5, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Gerard]

Easier to progress if you implement moving practice in your meditation work. Sitting there and waiting for things to happen only will to frustration when you happen to encounter a block (it is there from the very moment you become stale in your practice but unaware of the blockage's location...how did this happen? What is stopping me from progressing in jhana?), Daoists don't follow the straight Buddhist method of working directly with the mind, their model is totally energetic (yin&yang & 5 Elements/Phases) even though they have to bypass the mind as well..but this will happen naturally as they talk about returning to the Dao and there is no way you can't enter this last state without removing all the fetters.

 

Daoism acknowledges the road, its pitfalls and its entire energetic structure which has been messed up by the collective mind (shaped by karma following ego and attachment to form); Buddhism doesn't...but in today's age Buddhism is imperfect (especially Theravada) as in it implies everyone has Buddha's level when they first start, this is wrong, you can't start at that level from day ONE as your mind is way to blocked to understand a Buddha. Better work on the building blocks of that road and once they are deconstructed then you can figure out what the mind is and now to enter the Dao/attain mental nibbana.

[yabyum24]

Buddhism is imperfect (especially Theravada) as in it implies everyone has Buddha's level when they first start

Where did you get that from?

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Buddhism is imperfect (especially Theravada) as in it implies everyone has Buddha's level when they first start

You're massively misunderstanding the teachings on Buddha-nature. It needs to be understood in the wider context of madhyamika, or it is reified, which is the mistake you've made.

 

We have Buddha-nature in the sense of the obscurations being removable, and them causing the enlightened qualities to be skewed into deluded qualities. That doesn't mean we are Buddhas with the qualities of Buddhas!

 

If Buddha-nature is liquid water, the obscurations are like cold weather which causes the water to harden into ice. The ice is itself still water, and only has to be removed from the cold to manifest liquid qualities... but you wouldn't give someone who's thirsty a glass of solid ice.

 

Yes, the conceptual mind is incapable of comprehending this. But hopefully my analogy has made things a bit clearer.

[Kajenx]

Hi Kajenx,

Has your subsequent meditation, since that incident improved or changed in any way?

 

Definitely. Actually I feel like it's completely different from how it was before. I can recognize a few stages that seem to happen each time I sit now. First, there's a sort of snapping to attention that occurs - I don't try to do this, it seems to happen naturally even if I let my mind wander a bit - and soon after that I become very relaxed and the pleasant bodily feelings start. After sitting with those feelings for a bit, they'll usually take off into mind and body euphoria (piti? sukha?). I've had two different things happen after that. One will be a sinking feeling as the euphoria seems to taper off (this reminds me very much of how the stages of Jhana are supposed to go) and this sinking feeling can end in a kind of complete emotionlessness, or it fades back to normalcy before it gets all the way there. The other thing that can happen after the peak is the euphoria turns into a very bizarre buzzing and my eyes start to vibrate very quickly. It puts me in mind of a black hole sucking you in, maybe?

 

I've had some of these stages happen independent of mediation as well. The emotionless/empty feeling has just kind of happened a few times without any catalyst - though I should say that I've been paying close attention to my mental states and trying to remove judgments from them, so this might be a kind of meditation anyway. The buzzing has happened a few times when I've been laying in bed - actually just last night I was laying there, and I had the feeling that I was aware of my skull (if that makes sense, lol!) and I was moving my jaw and thinking about how the bones and skin are very odd. I felt kind of like I was inside of the skull or something. That's when the buzzing started and I felt a bit like I was being sucked down a drain. I should note that I wasn't tired during this, so I don't think it was a dream state. I tried thinking about my jawbone again this morning - kind of moving it up and down - and I had a similar feeling appear again.

 

Yes, the insight component is provided by your awareness. If you didn't have this you would sink into a dull torporific state, or blank out, like in deep sleep.

 

I used to have that happen sometimes, actually. I'd get very dull and fuzzy and feel a bit numb after I got up. It felt kind of odd, really.

 

Sorry to go into all the gory details, haha, but I just find all of this very interesting. If I went back a month or so and told myself about these mind-states, I probably would have thought I was lying or I'd gone crazy. O_O

 

(anyhow, the Dao De Jing helped me a lot in early stages of meditation..)

 

This is a good idea. I used to read a passage or two of the DDJ every day and just kind of lounge and think about it. ^^ It's a lot of fun to go back to it now!

 

Hello Kajenx. What I personally think is that in this modern world we are taught from a young age to objectify and to use logic and to analyze until the cows come home. This can work well enough when trying to understand the physical world around us better. In my opinion when it comes to actual meditation practice however, we need to put aside this mode of analytical thinking and just find a meditation practice that we find suitable and practice it according to the way that particular meditation is to be practiced. Many forms of meditation may well require an experienced teacher as well to help keep the student on track. In regards to meditation experience, our analytical mind is more apt to lead us astray than to be of real help. In my experience in regards to meditation itself it is better to relax the mind and just practice. Rather than trying to focus on and analyze any experiences too much, just relax and do the meditation as it is to be done. Over time a new sort of awareness and understanding may develop completely on its own.

 

You're totally right, of course, haha, but I'm not really aiming for anything in particular, so it's just fun to see what other people could tell me about all of it. When the first event happened, I definitely over thought it, but I don't think that's too much of a danger now. When I realized that all the good things that had happened were tied to letting go, it was hard to justify holding on to anything. I had a week or two where I kept finding myself all caught up in an emotion and I just realized how ridiculous I was being, haha. I've had a lot of trouble with anxiety in the past, but at this point I don't see how it could catch me again. If I feel some kind of negativity, it's very easy to dissociate from it and just let it be whatever it is. It goes away within a minute.

[yabyum24]

Definitely. Actually I feel like it's completely different from how it was before. I can recognize a few stages that seem to happen each time I sit now. First, there's a sort of snapping to attention that occurs - I don't try to do this, it seems to happen naturally even if I let my mind wander a bit - and soon after that I become very relaxed and the pleasant bodily feelings start.

Hi Kajenx,

This sounds very good. The fact that subsequent to that experience your meditation has completely changed, demonstrates that it was a breakthrough, rather than a one-off jolly.

After sitting with those feelings for a bit, they'll usually take off into mind and body euphoria (piti? sukha?). I've had two different things happen after that. One will be a sinking feeling as the euphoria seems to taper off (this reminds me very much of how the stages of Jhana are supposed to go) and this sinking feeling can end in a kind of complete emotionlessness, or it fades back to normalcy before it gets all the way there.

Jhana is dynamic, contrary to what some sources claim. Powerful bliss emerges in second jhana but it becomes a burden in itself. In the sutta I linked previously, there is the phrase "he discerns that there is an escape beyond this." This is where you run up against that which is hemming in your expanding consciousness. It's a kind of barrier and when you get there you can experience "nimitta" (some kind of odd sign that something is imminent). Generally this is described as a kind of light but this is only one possibility. There are also "feeling nimita" which manifest physically...

The other thing that can happen after the peak is the euphoria turns into a very bizarre buzzing and my eyes start to vibrate very quickly. It puts me in mind of a black hole sucking you in, maybe?

Perhaps the buzzing you are feeling is something of this kind? The "black hole" will suck you in. You move into it and through it. A very apt description.

I've had some of these stages happen independent of mediation as well. The emotionless/empty feeling has just kind of happened a few times without any catalyst - though I should say that I've been paying close attention to my mental states and trying to remove judgments from them, so this might be a kind of meditation anyway.

Yes it is. It can even happen when you are walking around and begins to increasingly happen outside of formal meditation. Your mind will unbind (of itself) and your consciousness will expand into space. This is the self-liberation of thoughts we hear of in some Buddhist schools, or the dissolution of Shakti into Paramashiva, as in Spanda Shaivism. You can feel the difference between the contracted state of your mind (obsessing over some crap) and the expansive state, which is blissful, empty, clear and incomparable.

 

It's not enlightenment, or liberation of itself, but it points the way towards it.

The buzzing has happened a few times when I've been laying in bed - actually just last night I was laying there, and I had the feeling that I was aware of my skull (if that makes sense, lol!) and I was moving my jaw and thinking about how the bones and skin are very odd. I felt kind of like I was inside of the skull or something. That's when the buzzing started and I felt a bit like I was being sucked down a drain.

Very much like a nimitta. You could be very close to another experience. Don't let it faze you, or excite you, just carry on observing it as if it has got nothing whatsoever to do with you.

Sorry to go into all the gory details, haha, but I just find all of this very interesting.

The gory details are where it's at. Without them, there is no way of conveying your experience in a meaningful way.

 

Go for it and don't let anyone talk you down. Be guided by your experience, not by expectations of any kind.

Edited February 6, 2014 by yabyum24

[NotVoid]

Kajenx wrote:

"When the first event happened, I definitely over thought it, but I don't think that's too much of a danger now. When I realized that all the good things that had happened were tied to letting go, it was hard to justify holding on to anything. I had a week or two where I kept finding myself all caught up in an emotion and I just realized how ridiculous I was being, haha. I've had a lot of trouble with anxiety in the past, but at this point I don't see how it could catch me again. If I feel some kind of negativity, it's very easy to dissociate from it and just let it be whatever it is. It goes away within a minute."

 

It sounds like that this is a good positive sign of real progress, and also that you understand better that you should just let go and relax and allow progress to occur naturally rather than trying to make certain types of experiences happen seems good as well.

[Kajenx]

Yes it is. It can even happen when you are walking around and begins to increasingly happen outside of formal meditation. Your mind will unbind (of itself) and your consciousness will expand into space. This is the self-liberation of thoughts we hear of in some Buddhist schools, or the dissolution of Shakti into Paramashiva, as in Spanda Shaivism. You can feel the difference between the contracted state of your mind (obsessing over some crap) and the expansive state, which is blissful, empty, clear and incomparable.

 

It's not enlightenment, or liberation of itself, but it points the way towards it.

 

What is this open mind pointing to, if it isn't the end itself? This is a question I've had for a while, actually. I've read a lot about the cessation moment and stream entry on DO, and they seem to pursue it like a goal, but in the end, isn't it more like a signpost telling you you're letting go enough? We aren't able to live in a cessation, and even if it reveals all the mysteries of the universe, how can we trust anything we learn from it? There's a lot of talk about no-self in buddhism (and Taoism too). I understand the concept and how it could be realized, but why is it even important? If we can simply let go of everything, does it matter if there is a self or not? You can say no-self is just a way of describing a lack of attachment I suppose, but I've seen a number of places talk about "Truth" with a capital T, meaning we're going to discover the true reality or the true nature of the universe. Is this the goal or buddhism, or is it a corruption of the core ideas? I just want to find a lasting tranquility, and the buddha said that all he taught was dukkha. The four noble truths are "True" in the sense that the mind can free itself from struggle, but this doesn't seem to incorporate anything to do with understanding the nature of reality – or even the nature of the mind beyond what it’s capable of doing for itself. Maybe we need to find an explanation of the universe that makes sense before we can let go of it finally? Maybe this is why Stream Entry is only the first of four levels? Would an Arahant or a Tao master talk about Truth, or would they just tell us to let go?

 

I guess the only way to know is to experience it for myself at some point and see if it changes me at all, haha. I feel like I'm not really communicating my question well, but maybe the spirit of it got through somehow.

 

It sounds like that this is a good positive sign of real progress, and also that you understand better that you should just let go and relax and allow progress to occur naturally rather than trying to make certain types of experiences happen seems good as well.

 

Yes, I think at some point you realize that the things you're trying to "get" are actually the result of removing. It makes for an interesting understand that seems entierly contradictory. It's alright to want peace of mind as long as you don't WANT it, and simply allow yourself to want it, lol! Everything can be observed without attachment, even our feelings of attachment.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Not knowing truth is what causes us to grasp. So letting go is only possible to a limited, shallow extent if it doesn't flow out of wisdom. Dukkha is caused by grasping, grasping is caused by delusion. So the path is designed to destroy delusion.

 

Believing in self means we grasp on to things as 'I' and 'mine', so we identify with stuff. This means we grasp onto a reified dichotomy of 'me - important' and 'not me - less important'.

 

With full realisation of emptiness comes letting go of samsara, achieving nirvana as an arhat. The next steps involve realising the non-duality of samsara and nirvana, and having bodhichitta, resulting in Buddhahood - transcending all extremes.

[Kajenx]

Not knowing truth is what causes us to grasp. So letting go is only possible to a limited, shallow extent if it doesn't flow out of wisdom. Dukkha is caused by grasping, grasping is caused by delusion. So the path is designed to destroy delusion.

 

I guess what I'm really asking, though, is how do you know you've found something that's True? In the sense that it is reality as opposed to another kind of delusion? If you've truly let go of all concepts and live in a non-conditioned state, doesn't that mean you let go of the idea of both self and non-self, and simply live without defining what life is?

 

I suppose in the end no-self is just another name for something, and to really know something is to need no name for it. I mean, I can understand why believing there is no "self" would help you let go of clinging and aversion, but why rely on it? Why not just let go for your own happiness? Or maybe I have it backward and after you've finally let go of everything, you could logically be said to have "no self", since there would be nothing left to define you, and nothing left for you to define your exprience.

 

It's easy to get hung up on words. Lao Tzu makes more sense every day, hehe.

[yabyum24]

What is this open mind pointing to, if it isn't the end itself? This is a question I've had for a while, actually.

Yeah, that's exactly what it is.

 

We aren't able to live in a cessation, and even if it reveals all the mysteries of the universe, how can we trust anything we learn from it?

Cessation is something you have already experienced in some measure and you have learned a fair bit from it already. Cessation of grasping, cessation of anger, cessation of the incessant ego-mind 'me-me-me' dialogue etc. You don't intellectually "learn" anything, you directly experience it and thus "know" it to be true.

 

There's a lot of talk about no-self in buddhism

By people who are relying on misunderstood doctrines. Anatta does not actually mean "no-self" it means "not-self" and there is a world of difference between the two. "No-Self" is some kind of paradoxical, contradictory, speculative, up-your-butt mind-game.

 

Not-Self is revealed in jhana because as the aggregates are relinquished in deeper samatha (tranquillity), vippassana (awareness) sees the non-ownwership of them all. Also genuine past life recall opens this up too. Many Buddhists who believe in the fallacy of "no-self" reject the notion of rebirth, as they see an obvious contradiction between there being no-person and "something" which could take rebirth. I could write a massive post on this alone, but suffice to say, you can discard the idea of no-self.

 

If we can simply let go of everything, does it matter if there is a self or not?

Perfect.

 

You can say no-self is just a way of describing a lack of attachment I suppose, but I've seen a number of places talk about "Truth" with a capital T, meaning we're going to discover the true reality or the true nature of the universe. Is this the goal or buddhism, or is it a corruption of the core ideas?

Sangha who don't bother cultivating meditation will have to justify their time by doing other things, like reifying Buddha's teachings into various doctrines and ideologies and then insisting that other people "believe" it.

 

I just want to find a lasting tranquility, and the buddha said that all he taught was dukkha.

Someplace he said that all he taught was "stress and its release".

 

Maybe we need to find an explanation of the universe that makes sense before we can let go of it finally?

Okay, I've bashed reification a bit but it is understandable. After all, it's how we have made sense of the world since we were kids and it's an indispensable tool in everyday life. Just at some point we need to drop it. I know that I'm still carrying a lot of junk in my mental rucksack, just because enough masters have told me that I have some very important stuff in there and I can't believe they are all wrong and that I have all the answers.

I take it out from time-to-time and have a look at it. It's a bit tarnished but who knows, it could still could polish up nicely?

 

I guess the only way to know is to experience it for myself at some point and see if it changes me at all, haha.

Yeah, that's the acid test. To what extent are desire and aversion still present and controlling us? Being honest with ourselves on this one helps to keep our feet on the ground and the work in progress.

 

Yes, I think at some point you realize that the things you're trying to "get" are actually the result of removing.

I've always felt that jhana is a relinquishment not an attainment.

[Kajenx]

Not-Self is revealed in jhana because as the aggregates are relinquished in deeper samatha (tranquillity), vippassana (awareness) sees the non-ownwership of them all. Also genuine past life recall opens this up too. Many Buddhists who believe in the fallacy of "no-self" reject the notion of rebirth, as they see an obvious contradiction between there being no-person and "something" which could take rebirth. I could write a massive post on this alone, but suffice to say, you can discard the idea of no-self.

 

AHH, see, this makes sense now. I think this is cheifly what I'm working on, actually. The less that is "self", the less we need to worry about. Thank you for clearing that up for me, haha. To be honest, I'm not a very mystically minded person anymore. I definately used to be (and I don't judge anyone badly for beliving in ghosts or trying to cultivate psychic powers or that sort of thing), but I was worried buddhism might have too much of a focus on beliefs to "work" in that by observing your own cessation you suddenly believe you don't really exist and won't have to worry about yourself anymore. This probably just came from my own misunderstanding. Again, lost in the words and ignoring the concepts even though I knew what made the most sense... XD

 

I really have been confused by a lot of buddhism in general. I always thought it seemed like meditation does both tranquility and insight/awareness at the same, and I couldn't find the difference between the methods. If a meditation on not-self is a good way to get travel through samatha, then obviously the two are connected. People are "doing vippassana" all over the internet, though. It makes it very confusing. I should probably just stick to Thich Nhat Hanh books from now on and let his conversations with various inatimate objects inspire me. ^^