Jhana in Taoism?

[Simple_Jack]

Complete Reality School.

 

Deci Belle is my Alma Mater

 

You realize, that the development of the major schools of Daoism, have all been heavily influenced by Buddhism, right?

[C T]

Because, he has made generalized comments of this kind, multiple times; he has maintained that this is a fault of all Buddhist's who adhere to the notion of 'no-self', particularly Theravadin Buddhists. Even after I presented information that shows otherwise, http://thetaobums.com/topic/33091-immortal-atman/?p=509740. Now, I think it's paramount that there be citing of the tipitaka, when subject matter dealing with Buddhist principles are discussed. People should rely on the teachings in the sutta-pitaka or commentarial traditions, so as to avoid unnecessary proliferations, that distorts accurate understandings of the Dhamma. Of course, its your prerogative to not rely on the teachings of Buddhism, but I prefer an environment where I know that I'm receiving the teachings as it was taught in the sutta-pitaka or commentarial traditions, where info can be verified to be coming from a reliable source.

Accurate understanding by whose definition?

 

Have you perfect understanding of the Dharma?

 

Who has perfect understanding of the Dharma, please hands up.

 

By definition, any attempt to separate what is right and what is not is to fall into error.

 

The Buddha never said that all he taught was right. Only fools argue that way. The Buddha gave a set of possibilities, and within this set of possibilities there are uncountable number of variables. Within this uncountable number of variables (numbering more than grains of sands on the banks of the river Ganges) there are the forces of karma at play. And, you, my friend, are arguing that one has to adhere strictly to code. Are you being naive here, i wonder.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

In Simple_Jack's defense I will say that there is ample talk of reincarnation and various states of saint like being, such as arhats etc. all of that is in the classic Theravadan text the Dhammapada.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, I studied it a long time ago.

 

But I am not sure yabyum24 wanted to assert that his criticism applied to the core teachings of Theravada, but more to a certain strain of psychological buddhism which sometimes seems to want to, and indeed sometimes does assert, that "rebirth" and related concepts refer only to events within a single lifetime, and since there is no self there is nothing to survive death.

 

I understand that position could not and ought not be equated with orthodox Theravadan Buddhism.

 

So in that respect, Simple_Jack has a point.

 

Never contend, but always agree.

...

Edited February 7, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[Songtsan]

You realize, that the development of the major schools of Daoism, have all been heavily influenced by Buddhism, right?

 

yep! The schools co-taught each other..

 

But as far as who was enlightened first, I don't know, nor do I care...I try my best not to look backwards, only here now, with occasional forward planning when necessary.

[Songtsan]

Accurate understanding by whose definition?

 

Have you perfect understanding of the Dharma?

 

Who has perfect understanding of the Dharma, please hands up.

 

By definition, any attempt to separate what is right and what is not is to fall into error.

 

The Buddha never said that all he taught was right. Only fools argue that way. The Buddha gave a set of possibilities, and within this set of possibilities there are uncountable number of variables. Within this uncountable number of variables (numbering more than grains of sands on the banks of the river Ganges) there are the forces of karma at play. And, you, my friend, are arguing that one has to adhere strictly to code. Are you being naive here, i wonder.

 

This is very good - I agree that the Buddha created various systems within his systems, trying to have as many available options as possible for students to find the right way in regards to their instrinsically motivated predilections. The various enlightened sages which followed opened up even more pathways. Buddhism is a beautiful land of possibilities. I especially dig the crazy wisdom paths and Vajrayana...I still feel attraction to crazy-wisdom and Vajrayana paths, and so if I so choose I may venture down these ways, but I might store potential for later instead...

[Simple_Jack]

But I am not sure yabyum24 wanted to assert that his criticism applied to the core teachings of Theravada, but more to a certain strain of psychological buddhism which sometimes seems to want to, and indeed sometimes does assert, that "rebirth" and related concepts refer only to events within a single lifetime, and since there is no self there is nothing to survive death.

 

There is no such dichotomy of "psychological Buddhism": an individual's presentation of key Buddhist principles are either informed or illinformed; which is why I presented information [http://thetaobums.com/topic/33091-immortal-atman/?p=509740] that showed the flaws in his assertions.

[Songtsan]

You know if you study Buddhism you realize that Bodhisattva and Buddhas show up in various religions, groups of people, and teach them things that will help them get rid of suffering. Depends on the understanding of people. If certain group could only deal with fire gods, a Bodhisattva or Buddha may manifest as a fire god to teach them. But the thing is not only can Buddhas and Bodhisattva can transform, demons, ghosts, and spirits can manifest and give out deviant teachings.

 

Buddhamind=Kundalini=Djinn=Spirits=Taomind=All-Mind=One-Mind=Hell-mind=Demon-Mind

 

Good point.

 

My thanks.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Songtsan

[Simple_Jack]

Accurate understanding by whose definition?

 

Have you perfect understanding of the Dharma?

 

Who has perfect understanding of the Dharma, please hands up.

 

By definition, any attempt to separate what is right and what is not is to fall into error.

 

The Buddha never said that all he taught was right. Only fools argue that way. The Buddha gave a set of possibilities, and within this set of possibilities there are uncountable number of variables. Within this uncountable number of variables (numbering more than grains of sands on the banks of the river Ganges) there are the forces of karma at play. And, you, my friend, are arguing that one has to adhere strictly to code. Are you being naive here, i wonder.

 

If an individual is going to present information on Buddhism, especially its tenets, than I think it's best if that person does not present skewed information; especially if it's an intentional distortion by means of preconceived notions and biased assumptions.

[Simple_Jack]

Accurate understanding by whose definition?

 

Have you perfect understanding of the Dharma?

 

Who has perfect understanding of the Dharma, please hands up.

 

By definition, any attempt to separate what is right and what is not is to fall into error.

 

The Buddha never said that all he taught was right. Only fools argue that way. The Buddha gave a set of possibilities, and within this set of possibilities there are uncountable number of variables. Within this uncountable number of variables (numbering more than grains of sands on the banks of the river Ganges) there are the forces of karma at play. And, you, my friend, are arguing that one has to adhere strictly to code. Are you being naive here, i wonder.

If an individual is going to present information on Buddhism, especially its tenets, than I think it's best if that person does not present skewed information; especially if it's an intentional distortion by means of preconceived notions and biased assumptions.

 

Of course, these are just my opinions, it's anyone's prerogative to disregard the teachings that have been handed down to us. Also, if someone is adverse to hearing proclamations of what is constituted as "right", then they should not bother with Buddhism at all. The Nikayas (and by extension the Chinese/Tibetan Agamas) especially should be avoided, since the historical Buddha, and at times his disciples, admonishes and refutes, what he constitutes as "wrong" views, etc.

[C T]

If an individual is going to present information on Buddhism, especially its tenets, than I think it's best if that person does not present skewed information; especially if it's an intentional distortion by means of preconceived notions and biased assumptions.

The Dharma is not meant to be scrutinized ~ it is a distillation process. Do you understand what 'process' means? It means we each have our own powers of discernment. Some are more powerful, some less. You are asserting that someone's power of discernment is flawed. I am asserting there is no such thing, vis-a-vis too many variables.

 

Information is simply that: expedient means. Again, these can't be right or wrong. We use what is needed, what we have the mental capacity to absorb, and base our view from the understanding which we have distilled from there. It is an individual relationship with Dharma, a personal process arising from how much delusion we have been able to descale from our cognitive processes. Therefore, to say someone's view is skewed, distorted, and wrongly motivated is an error.

[C T]

Also, to assert that that person's view is right is also an error.

[Simple_Jack]

The Dharma is not meant to be scrutinized ~ it is a distillation process. Do you understand what 'process' means? It means we each have our own powers of discernment. Some are more powerful, some less. You are asserting that someone's power of discernment is flawed. I am asserting there is no such thing, vis-a-vis too many variables.

 

Information is simply that: expedient means. Again, these can't be right or wrong. We use what is needed, what we have the mental capacity to absorb, and base our view from the understanding which we have distilled from there. It is an individual relationship with Dharma, a personal process arising from how much delusion we have been able to descale from our cognitive processes. Therefore, to say someone's view is skewed, distorted, and wrongly motivated is an error.

Also, to assert that that person's view is right is also an error.

 

Of course Dharma is meant to be scrutinized: this is why prajna is a faculty and power in the 37 factors of awakening. If you have a problem with anything I've been saying thus far, take it up with the Buddha and the people who teach according to these principles, that have been handed down to us.

[C T]

Of course, these are just my opinions, it's anyone's prerogative to disregard the teachings that have been handed down to us. Also, if someone is adverse to hearing proclamations of what is constituted as "right", then they should not bother with Buddhism at all. The Nikayas (and by extension the Chinese/Tibetan Agamas) especially should be avoided, since the historical Buddha, and at times his disciples, admonishes and refutes, what he constitutes as "wrong" views, etc.

If someone is free from averse reactions on either spectrum, truly, there is no need whatsoever to bother with Buddhism.

 

The Buddha (as do all cravings, skt. Tanha) arises in light of views arising.

 

With the cessation of views, all cravings will be extinguished.

 

Why? Because all views are based on a self.

 

 

Tanha: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta%E1%B9%87h%C4%81

 

Three Kinds of Desire: http://www.buddhanet.net/4noble12.htm

[C T]

Of course Dharma is meant to be scrutinized: this is why prajna is a faculty and power in the 37 factors of awakening. If you have a problem with anything I've been saying thus far, take it up with the Buddha and the people who teach according to these principles, that have been handed down to us.

No wonder you are stuck.

[Simple_Jack]

No wonder you are stuck.

 

Sure, but prajna is a very important component of the path, which is why the summation for progress on the path is sila, samadhi, prajna; why prajna is an inherent feature of the teachings from the Prajnaparamita Sutras, and why it's the 6th paramita of the bodhisattva's practice.

[C T]

I did take it up, as you suggested. And a good answer came from the Ven. Rahula, who states that Tanha is not only related to sense pleasures and physical gratifications, but also the desire for, and attachment to ideas and ideals, views, opinions, theories, conceptions, and beliefs (dhamma-tanha).

[Yascra]

Well,

the best demonstration of understanding is correct application, I guess.

 

Good N8 to you

[C T]

Sure, but prajna is a very important component of the path, which is why the summation for progress on the path is sila, samadhi, prajna; why prajna is an inherent feature of the teachings from the Prajnaparamita Sutras, and why it's the 6th paramita of the bodhisattva's practice.

And you are of the opinion that one progresses from sila, samadhi to prajna thru scrutinizing the Dharma, is that it? Just to be clear.

[Simple_Jack]

And you are of the opinion that one progresses from sila, samadhi to prajna thru scrutinizing the Dharma, is that it? Just to be clear.

 

Prajna is a discriminative faculty, it's also a type of wisdom, though as I've posted before: its has contaminated and pure expressions; the former for those on the mundane path of a deluded sentient being and the latter for an arya on the supramundane path. Understanding Dharma starts with first hearing the teachings, then contemplating the teachings, and finally meditating on the teachings. Of course, this is a continual process, but prajna is key factor in discerning the principles of Dharma, that is to be applied towards realization, in both the meditative and post-meditative periods.

[Simple_Jack]

Prajna is a discriminative faculty, it's also a type of wisdom, though as I've posted before: its has contaminated and pure expressions; the former for those on the mundane path of a deluded sentient being and the latter for an arya on the supramundane path. Understanding Dharma starts with first hearing the teachings, then contemplating the teachings, and finally meditating on the teachings. Of course, this is a continual process, but prajna is key factor in discerning the principles of Dharma, that is to be applied towards realization, in both the meditative and post-meditative periods.

 

It doesn't have to be limited to a sequential process, such as the above, but can be a simultaneous process of all three in a single moment; this is the execution of prajna, simultaneously, in actuality.

[C T]

Prajna is a discriminative faculty, it's also a type of wisdom, though as I've posted before: its has contaminated and pure expressions; the former for those on the mundane path of a deluded sentient being and the latter for an arya on the supramundane path. Understanding Dharma starts with first hearing the teachings, then contemplating the teachings, and finally meditating on the teachings. Of course, this is a continual process, but prajna is key factor in discerning the principles of Dharma, that is to be applied towards realization, in both the meditative and post-meditative periods.

Just listen to yourself for a minute here, SJ. Im really sorry to say this, but this is like reading from a textbook man. Is this how you conduct your life daily, in your interactions with people?

 

You seem, whats the word.... fixated. Zoned out.

 

Please forgive me if this seems a heartless thing to say, but its the first thought that came up. You can call me 'bastard' now, i dont mind.

 

I dont like to see my friends trapped, even in the name of salvation. And you, i count as a friend.

[Simple_Jack]

Just listen to yourself for a minute here, SJ. Im really sorry to say this, but this is like reading from a textbook man. Is this how you conduct your life daily, in your interactions with people?

 

You seem, whats the word.... fixated. Zoned out.

 

Please forgive me if this seems a heartless thing to say, but its the first thought that came up. You can call me 'bastard' now, i dont mind.

 

I dont like to see my friends trapped, even in the name of salvation. And you, i count as a friend.

It doesn't have to be limited to a sequential process, such as the above, but can be a simultaneous process of all three in a single moment; this is the execution of prajna, simultaneously, in actuality.

 

Well, I'm not expecting this to appeal to everybody, nor do I expect anyone to agree with me, but this is not a contradiction to the sutras and shastras, to how it has been taught to me, or how to apply the principles of the path in day-to-day life. I am not one to grasp at a neutral, indiscriminative, non-conceptual state of presence; to become fixated on this, calling this "meditation". In the storm of affirmation and rejection, swallowed up by the waves, one sinks to the depths of ignorance; yet the lifeboat of prajna, rescues one from the murky depths. The suns beams, disperse the stormy clouds, shining in all its radiance, never obscured, calm seas and clear skies.

[gatito]

Also, to assert that that person's view is right is also an error.

 

An interesting technical point here CT

 

Nothing that can be said about the Truth is the Truth

 

Even statements such as “I am a man” or “I am a woman” are ultimately untrue. However, no Right Acting person would doubt those relative truths in normal circumstances.

 

Therefore, I’m certainly happy to endorse what yabyum24 has said in this thread, in the same way that I’m happy to endorse what I’ve read of what the Buddha reputedly said.

 

Interestingly, there are many different possible misinterpretations that can be placed on anything that anyone says as well; particularly by religious fanatics who not only misinterpret the words of the Buddha through ignorance but who sometimes deliberately misquote and/or misinterpret what others may say with the sole intent to cause harm.

 

Just to be crystal clear, I am not referring to de facto Buddhists, such as you and many other de facto Buddhists who post on TTBs.

[Simple_Jack]

An interesting technical point here CT

 

Nothing that can be said about the Truth is the Truth

 

Even statements such as “I am a man” or “I am a woman” are ultimately untrue. However, no Right Acting person would doubt those relative truths in normal circumstances.

 

Therefore, I’m certainly happy to endorse what yabyum24 has said in this thread, in the same way that I’m happy to endorse what I’ve read of what the Buddha reputedly said.

 

Interestingly, there are many different possible misinterpretations that can be placed on anything that anyone says as well; particularly by religious fanatics who not only misinterpret the words of the Buddha through ignorance but who sometimes deliberately misquote and/or misinterpret what others may say with the sole intent to cause harm.

 

Just to be crystal clear, I am not referring to de facto Buddhists, such as you and many other de facto Buddhists who post on TTBs.

 

From Dzog Chen and Zen, pg.16 by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu:

 

A human being has his limits. And thus in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Jeff]

Prajna is a discriminative faculty, it's also a type of wisdom, though as I've posted before: its has contaminated and pure expressions; the former for those on the mundane path of a deluded sentient being and the latter for an arya on the supramundane path. Understanding Dharma starts with first hearing the teachings, then contemplating the teachings, and finally meditating on the teachings. Of course, this is a continual process, but prajna is key factor in discerning the principles of Dharma, that is to be applied towards realization, in both the meditative and post-meditative periods.

 

I would agree, but one must realize that "meditating" does not mean "thinking about and reflecting". Meditating means "residing in and realizing".

 

Best wishes.