[PimonratC]

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The really scary is not death.

In contrast, The real scare is the birth.

Because it’s the beginning of all suffering and pain.

(Click to view larger image.)

http://atenlightenment.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/birth-death-5-2.png

 

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Edited February 7, 2014 by PimonratC

[3bob]

Birth is a chance to resolve karmas that are not or perhaps very difficult to resolve in any other format, (namely being dead to this world but still in some other bardo) thus it can also be seen as a type of blessing to work with, besides and importantly a lot of the energies related to having a physical body are transmutable to higher form that can act to strengthen the particular being which can then help them in dharmic practice (for a Buddhist I'd say that would be the Noble Eight Fold Path) and or a quickening (for the many other ways or schools) - so to speak.

Edited February 7, 2014 by 3bob

[RongzomFan]

for a Buddhist I'd say that would be the Noble Eight Fold Path

 

You keep saying this like a mantra.

 

This is not the path of even regular Mahayana, let alone Mahamudra etc.

[Songtsan]

birth is also a time of wonder and exploration...the Yang to the Yin of the scary place...wondrous and exciting, scary and perplexing.

[3bob]

You keep saying this like a mantra.

 

This is not the path of even regular Mahayana, let alone Mahamudra etc.

 

I won't swallow your ramblings Alwayson, (or your manipulated quotes) but and for instance I will listen to what someone like CT or Simple-jack has to say along lines related to The Noble Eight Fold Path. (why, because I think they often practice "Right Speech")

[asunthatneversets]

 

You keep saying this like a mantra.

 

This is not the path of even regular Mahayana, let alone Mahamudra etc.

It is the foundation for them though.

 

Jigten Sumgon said these preliminaries are the highest teachings. He (and my Drkung Kagyu lama reiterated this to me just recently in the context of Mahāmudrā) states that you would never build a house without a strong foundation, because it would fall apart.

 

In the same way, whether it be Mahāmudrā, Dzogchen, Madhyamaka and so on, without the preliminaries set forth in the eightfold path and teachings of the like, your practice in Mahāmudrā, Dzogchen, Madhyamaka and so on will fail.

 

Nothing can flourish in infertile soil.

[RongzomFan]

or your manipulated quotes

 

Manipulated quotes?

[RongzomFan]

Jigten Sumgon said these preliminaries are the highest teachings.

 

Preliminaries doesn't refer to Eightfold Path.

 

Preliminaries refers to ngondro, mantras and stuff.

Edited February 8, 2014 by RongzomFan

[RongzomFan]

I won't swallow your ramblings Alwayson, (or your manipulated quotes) but and for instance I will listen to what someone like CT or Simple-jack has to say along lines related to The Noble Eight Fold Path. (why, because I think they often practice "Right Speech")

 

There is no bodicitta in Eightfold Path.

 

Its not a Mahayana path.

[RongzomFan]

Here is a book:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=9CTSz3EVRpoC&pg=PA123&dq=Eightfold+Path+Mahayana&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tZP1UuidAsussQS1pIGwBA&ved=0CC4QuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Eightfold%20Path%20Mahayana&f=false

[asunthatneversets]

 

Preliminaries doesn't refer to Eightfold Path.

 

Preliminaries refers to ngondro, mantras and stuff.

 

Actually it is literally the fundamentals, right view, conduct, all of that. Upāya is indispensable until prajñā dawns in the mind stream, and even after that right view and conduct are indispensable.

 

"The Buddha explained the Dharma to sentient beings in three episodes, called 'the three periods or occasions,' during which the Buddha turned the wheel of the Dharma. This is also called 'the three turnings of the Dharma wheel.' The first was what we call the 'basic teachings,' including the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, the three basic characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and not-self, the twelve links comprising the chain of interdependent origination, and so on. We might mistakenly think that Theravada or Hinayana, the so-called 'Lesser Vehicle' is inferior, but this is not the case. It is best to speak of the Theravadin tradition as the Ground, Fundamental, or Root Vehicle. This means that all the teachings have to be built upon that foundation, which includes being well-grounded in the Vinaya and the sutras taught by the historical Buddha. Therefore, all the higher teachings of Mahāmudrā, Maha Ati or Dzogchen - The Great Perfection, and Madhyamaka, must all be supported by the ground, which must be very firm and well prepared."

- Dzogchen Master Nyoshul Khenpo Jamyang Dorje

Edited February 8, 2014 by asunthatneversets

[RongzomFan]

Dudjom Rinpoche has a very comprehensive book on this whole subject.

 

 

A Torch Lighting the Way to Freedom: Complete Instruction on the Preliminary Practices

 

 

I don't think Eightfold Path is mentioned at all.

[asunthatneversets]

Dudjom Rinpoche has a very comprehensive book on this whole subject.

 

 

A Torch Lighting the Way to Freedom: Complete Instruction on the Preliminary Practices

 

 

I don't think Eightfold Path is mentioned at all.

 

However it will certainly teach right view, right intention, right action, skillful means in relation to the view. It is no different.

[3bob]

However it will certainly teach right view, right intention, right action, skillful means in relation to the view. It is no different.

 

"It is no different." agreed, and or in the sense that there is no way that it could be.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

 

There is no bodicitta in Eightfold Path.

 

Its not a Mahayana path.

Mahayana and Vajrayana are fundamentally based on 8FP, just approaching it in deeper ways, and not mentioning it so directly because it's automatically subsumed.

 

In Mahayana, Right Intention is bodhichitta and Right View is madhyamika. The rest are basically the same.

 

In Vajrayana, Right View is the View, samaya includes vows relating to Right Speech/Act/Livelihood, the last three ultimately become uncontrived resting in the View. So the 8FP becomes the View, Meditation and Way of Life, essentially. Right Intention is still bodhichitta.

 

Are Vajrayana students not supposed to have Right View? If you don't need to have some form of Right Act, can you go around stabbing people for giggles?

 

Think about what you're saying, it makes no sense.

[Stosh]

If I analogized the eightfold path to an on-ramp rather than a cornerstone couldnt that validate either view of its validity?

[Simple_Jack]

You keep saying this like a mantra.

 

This is not the path of even regular Mahayana, let alone Mahamudra etc.

 

It's definitely a feature of the [sutra] Mahayana path, considering that the 4th noble truth, is the means to end dukkha i.e. 8-fold noble path. The Prajnaparamita Sutras, as translated by Edward Conze, mention the 4-noble truths and 37 factors of awakening, which includes the 8-fold noble path. In any case, there are certain teachers, in Vajrayana, who make a correlation of the 4-noble truths, etc., to the path of Mahamudra or Dzogchen; one of those teachers is ChNN:

 

Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, Dzogchen Teachings:

 

• There is a teaching that is universal to all Buddhists called the Four Noble Truths. This was the first teaching transmitted by Buddha. Even if we have different methods in the teaching, such as Tantra and Dzogchen, they are always based on the Four Noble Truths. Why are they called the Noble Truths? They are noble because they are important for knowledge and understanding.

 

I won't swallow your ramblings Alwayson, (or your manipulated quotes) but and for instance I will listen to what someone like CT or Simple-jack has to say along lines related to The Noble Eight Fold Path. (why, because I think they often practice "Right Speech")

 

 

I fail to adhere to "Right Speech" both online and IRL.

[Simple_Jack]

What's interesting is how the 4-noble truths are featured in some of the Tathagatagarbha Sutras ["3rd turning of the wheel of Dharma"]:

 

Chapter 25 Angulimala Sutra

"What are the four ? The words 'the four noble truths' are renowned in the Śrāvaka-yāna, but such features are absent from the Mahāyāna.

The following inherent natures and functions are the four truths:
1)to say that the Tathāgata is permanent is an absolute truth for Mahāyāna,
but suffering (dukha) is not a truth;

2)to say that the Tathāgata is eternal is an absolute truth,
but not origination (samudaya);

3)to say that the Tathāgata is supremely unchanging is an absolute truth,
but cessation (nirodha) is not a truth;

4)and to say that the Tathāgata is peace is an absolute truth,
but not the path (mārga).

These are the four noble truths for Mahāyāna.

...

"Sutra on the Lion's Roar of Queen Srimala"

"Lord, the cessation of suffering is not the destruction of Dharma. Why so? Because the Dharmakaya of the Tathagata is named 'cessation of suffering,' and it is beginningless, uncreate, unborn, undying, free from death; permanent, steadfast, calm, eternal;

10. The One Truth

"Lord, among those four Noble Truths, three Truths are impermanent and one Truth is permanent.

Why so? Because the three Truths belong to the characteristic of the constructed, and anything belonging to the characteristic of the constructed is impermanent. Anything impermanent has an illusory nature. Everything with illusory nature is untrue, impermanent, and not a refuge.

Therefore, the Noble Truths of Suffering, Source of Suffering, and Path leading to the Cessation of Suffering are actually untrue, impermanent, and not a refuge.

Lord, among those [four], the one Truth -- Cessation of Suffering -- excludes the realm with the characteristic of the constructed. Anything excluding the realm with the characteristic of the constructed is permanent. Whatever is permanent lacks an illusory nature. Anything that lacks an illusory nature is true, permanent, and a refuge.

Therefore, the Truth -- Cessation of Suffering -- is in reality true, permanent, and a refuge.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

However it will certainly teach right view, right intention, right action, skillful means in relation to the view. It is no different.

 

 

Have you read Dudjom Rinpoche's A Torch Lighting the Way to Freedom?

 

It is comprehensive, starting with the rarity of human birth, reflecting on death etc.

 

If Eightfold Path is important it would be in the book.

[RongzomFan]

It's definitely a feature of the [sutra] Mahayana path

 

No

 

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/33667-mahayana-path/

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=9CTSz3EVRpoC&pg=PA123&dq=Eightfold+Path+Mahayana&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tZP1UuidAsussQS1pIGwBA&ved=0CC4QuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Eightfold%20Path%20Mahayana&f=false

[RongzomFan]

Mahayana path is Bodhisattva Path

[Simple_Jack]

No

 

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/33667-mahayana-path/

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=9CTSz3EVRpoC&pg=PA123&dq=Eightfold+Path+Mahayana&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tZP1UuidAsussQS1pIGwBA&ved=0CC4QuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Eightfold%20Path%20Mahayana&f=false

 

We'll agree to disagree, but Mahayana should be viewed in terms of being built on the "Foundational Vehicle", which is the current Dalai Lama's reference to Hinayana. Many of the key principles, of Hinayana, appear throughout the Mahayana sutras, albeit in a modified form at times. Of course, there are many instances where they are provisional modifications, such as the examples from the "Tathagatagarbha Sutras" above.

 

Mahayana path is Bodhisattva Path

 

Indeed.

[RongzomFan]

Wow u agreed mahayana path is bodhisattva path

[Simple_Jack]

http://books.google.com/books?id=9CTSz3EVRpoC&pg=PA123&dq=Eightfold+Path+Mahayana&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tZP1UuidAsussQS1pIGwBA&ved=0CC4QuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Eightfold%20Path%20Mahayana&f=false

 

Haven't read any of his books, yet. Thanks for posting this.

[asunthatneversets]

Have you read Dudjom Rinpoche's A Torch Lighting the Way to Freedom?

 

It is comprehensive, starting with the rarity of human birth, reflecting on death etc.

 

If Eightfold Path is important it would be in the book.

 

It isn't so much about the literal eightfold path, but the fundamental pointers it suggests. Those aspects are also fundamental characteristics of the Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna paths, including Dzogpa Chenpo. The only difference with paths such as Dzogchen is that they intend to directly introduce the aspirant to their nature first thing. So the pāramitās (which are cultivated gradually and in a contrived manner in the pāramitāyāna) are immediately perfected in that direct insight, because one's nature is prajñāpāramitā.

 

"If someone does not dwell in words and does not dwell in names,

that is prajñāpāramitā, buddhahood’s state of realization."

-- Rigpa Rangshar [Per Malcolm]

 

However not everyone is able to recognize their nature in the moment of introduction, so right view, conduct, and so on are an imperative basis for one's practice. They're also important after recognition occurs...

 

As the iconic line from Padmasambhava goes:

 

"Though my view is as spacious as the sky,

My actions and respect for cause and effect [karma] are as fine as grains of flour [tsampa]".

 

And Yangthang Rinpoche states:

"Generally speaking, the samayas of empowerments are very strict and difficult to guard. Here I will not share with you too extensively. The main thing is to guard the principle of karma, cause and effect. This is common practice of greater and lesser, higher and lower vehicles in Buddhism. Nowadays, many people brag about themselves and claim that they are Dzogchen Yogis, and thus look down or ignore karma. Many others also plant seeds of lower rebirth in living beings' mind stream. Anyway, I beg you to guard the principle of karma, cause and effect, properly and unmistakenly. Adopt what is to be taken up, and discard what is to be abandoned!"

Edited February 8, 2014 by asunthatneversets