Of

[三江源]

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Edited April 9, 2016 by 三江源

[zenbrook]

Are you concerned about this distinction,and if so, what BS detectors do you use?

Wow.... this one'll run and run

 

For me, spurious mysticism is as real as it gets. And I don't mean that in any sense that could be considered derogatory or unfavorable towards either the mystic or their experience.

 

Go figure, huh?

 

Peace,

ZenB

 

I should add... anyone tells anyone else how it is, is BS, period.

 

Not that I'm, like, telling you that or anything

 

Peace,

ZenB

[Spectrum]

Longevity, Sustainability, Repeatability.

 

Some folks may realize their inate nature as naturally as someone has a bad hair day or is inspired to write poetry. The ups and downs of life are natural. It's also natural for humans to have mystical experiences when presented with circumstances, or a lack of. The peaks and valleys on the path are natural for humans to walk. The views and vistas, the shade of oasis, these are natural guides for patterning our thoughts and actions.

 

"Real" practitioners act as guardians of the most sacred beauty through the simplicities of perception and the subtleness of communication.

 

Inspiration is so natural. It never ceases to make ones hair stand on end.

 

Spectrum

[宁]

My "gut-feelig" is the BS detector.

I have to mention that BS is sometimes very helpfull.

I dont think we will be better off without BS.

So, yes, when I think I need it, I can take a dive in BS

 

I already did, and found it to be inspiring.

You wouldnt belive what the change of perspective...

 

I must admit,

sometimes, BS for me is just something not very appealing at the time.

The BS of today, may be the "Real McCoy" of tomorrow...

 

Arent we funny birds...

[beancurdturtle]

When I start to smile, and feel what would be articulated, "well this is an interesting way to perceive things" - that's when I feel it's about the sizzle instead of the steak, more like "spurious mysticism."

 

When I just feel what would be articulated, "well of course - no duh!" - then it's closer to "the real thing."

 

Profundity is overrated.

[三江源]

Longevity, Sustainability, Repeatability.

 

Some folks may realize their inate nature as naturally as someone has a bad hair day or is inspired to write poetry. The ups and downs of life are natural. It's also natural for humans to have mystical experiences when presented with circumstances, or a lack of. The peaks and valleys on the path are natural for humans to walk. The views and vistas, the shade of oasis, these are natural guides for patterning our thoughts and actions.

 

"Real" practitioners act as guardians of the most sacred beauty through the simplicities of perception and the subtleness of communication.

 

Inspiration is so natural. It never ceases to make ones hair stand on end.

 

Spectrum

 

[fatherpaul]

Are you concerned about this distinction,and if so, what BS detectors do you use?

i am an ignoramus

i do not even understand the question.

[Ian]

The real thing makes me uncomfortable.

[thelerner]

I think there is value in the spurious. Practiced consciensciously the spurious can lead to the real. We all have to start off somewhere. A first book, a teacher. They're doors that lead to new places of knowledge, whether they're ultimate or not, they get you moving, thinking, doing.

 

Take Americanized Hatha Yoga. An Indian Ascetic might consider it minimalist crap, but its a doorway into the larger world of Yoga. And if it isn't, if you just stay w/ the poses you still become healthier and more flexible then 98% of the public. Spurious compared to the real thing? Sure, but its value can be immeasurable.

 

 

 

 

Michael

[zenbrook]

The real thing makes me uncomfortable.

Precisely

 

I think there is value in the spurious.

Precisely

 

I'd go even further - any attempt to 'get to' the real thing is, by it's very nature, spurious. As well it should be.

 

Which is just the most absolutely and utterly fabulous thing

 

Peace,

ZenB

[freeform]

The real thing makes me uncomfortable.

 

I'd go with that.

 

It's the feeling of 'oh crap "I'm" doomed'.

[三江源]

I'd go with that.

 

It's the feeling of 'oh crap "I'm" doomed'.

 

heh heh

[beancurdturtle]

any attempt to 'get to' the real thing is, by it's very nature, spurious. As well it should be.

Precisely

 

"Cultivation" is the attempt to get there,

and the first stepping stones on the path.

 

"Actualization" is to be there,

and be there, and be there.

The real thing morphs through time.

 

Our application morphs through time;

cultivation

conceptualizing

understanding

actualizing

[dwai]

I think there is value in the spurious. Practiced consciensciously the spurious can lead to the real. We all have to start off somewhere. A first book, a teacher. They're doors that lead to new places of knowledge, whether they're ultimate or not, they get you moving, thinking, doing.

 

Take Americanized Hatha Yoga. An Indian Ascetic might consider it minimalist crap, but its a doorway into the larger world of Yoga. And if it isn't, if you just stay w/ the poses you still become healthier and more flexible then 98% of the public. Spurious compared to the real thing? Sure, but its value can be immeasurable.

Michael

 

The key I believe is in whether a proper base has been created or not. ie, whether there has been sufficient introspection/study/research done by the seeker before embarking upon such an arduous journey. While Pop-practice is well and good, a sincere seeker will get sincere results and a casual seeker will get only superficial results.

[zenbrook]

While Pop-practice is well and good, a sincere seeker will get sincere results and a casual seeker will get only superficial results.

I think, at least, that's kind of what I'm getting at.

 

The 'highest' teachings/practices are so much dog shit if the person approaching them treats them casually. The 'simplest' can be the most profound if the seeker is sincere.

 

But it's more than that: all the teachings/practices are only ever method and as such are utterly spurious. Everyone of them, even those worth their salt, are the ultimate sham.... the real thing is not to be found there. Actually, the real thing is not to be found, but I guess we need to do something until we figure that out.

 

The problem with BS detectors is that one person's BS is another's skillful means. And acknowledging that can take us in a whole other direction spiritually.

 

Having said that, it's still all too easy to mistake fingers for moons

 

Peace,

ZenB

[fatherpaul]

i will only say this

mysticism, the occult arts, magic if you will,

are all very real, very dangerous, and very useless.

 

peace and happy pancakes,

paul

[zenbrook]

mysticism, the occult arts, magic if you will,

are all very real, very dangerous, and very useless.

Father P.... I wonder?

 

Potentially very dangerous and/or useless I can just about go with.

 

But 'real'.........? What do you, of all people, mean by this?

 

Peace,

ZenB

[宁]

I think there is value in the spurious. Practiced consciensciously the spurious can lead to the real. We all have to start off somewhere. A first book, a teacher. They're doors that lead to new places of knowledge, whether they're ultimate or not, they get you moving, thinking, doing.

 

Take Americanized Hatha Yoga. An Indian Ascetic might consider it minimalist crap, but its a doorway into the larger world of Yoga. And if it isn't, if you just stay w/ the poses you still become healthier and more flexible then 98% of the public. Spurious compared to the real thing? Sure, but its value can be immeasurable.

Michael

 

 

That's it - great post Michael!

[dwai]

I think, at least, that's kind of what I'm getting at.

 

The 'highest' teachings/practices are so much dog shit if the person approaching them treats them casually. The 'simplest' can be the most profound if the seeker is sincere.

 

But it's more than that: all the teachings/practices are only ever method and as such are utterly spurious. Everyone of them, even those worth their salt, are the ultimate sham.... the real thing is not to be found there. Actually, the real thing is not to be found, but I guess we need to do something until we figure that out.

 

The problem with BS detectors is that one person's BS is another's skillful means. And acknowledging that can take us in a whole other direction spiritually.

 

Having said that, it's still all too easy to mistake fingers for moons

 

Peace,

ZenB

 

I think the problem is with expecting too much. When one approaches a "Spiritual" quest, one has to have certain amount of open-ness to the experiences, without expecting anything specific -- just be receptive. That being said, it is a paradox, since one should necessarily research well before starting the journey.

 

I guess the difficulty in learning is in the "Un-learning". At the end of it all, things might very well turn out to be "Dog-s#1t" or whatever one deems to call it, but the learning one does while "un-learning" is the experience, it is the wisdom and is what is a part of the "mystical" experience.

[fatherpaul]

Father P.... I wonder?

 

Potentially very dangerous and/or useless I can just about go with.

 

But 'real'.........? What do you, of all people, mean by this?

 

Peace,

ZenB

"real" in the sense that directed energy is real,

but in this case, only destruction can come of it.

[beancurdturtle]

The problem with BS detectors is that one person's BS is another's skillful means. And acknowledging that can take us in a whole other direction spiritually.

Lovely!

 

Lauozi: Tao te Ching Chapter 71 (Merel)

Who recognizes his limitations is healthy;

Who ignores his limitations is sick.

The sage recognizes this sickness as a limitation.

And so becomes immune.

Edited July 14, 2007 by beancurdturtle

[宁]

I think the problem is with expecting too much. When one approaches a "Spiritual" quest, one has to have certain amount of open-ness to the experiences, without expecting anything specific -- just be receptive. That being said, it is a paradox, since one should necessarily research well before starting the journey.

 

I guess the difficulty in learning is in the "Un-learning". At the end of it all, things might very well turn out to be "Dog-s#1t" or whatever one deems to call it, but the learning one does while "un-learning" is the experience, it is the wisdom and is what is a part of the "mystical" experience.

 

That's great too, guys, you are amazing!

 

I know a teacher that, when asked by a new student, what he should do for the first time, his answer is something like, well, the first year, at least, have A LOT OF PATIENCE

 

)

[xenolith]

Practice as if all were coming. (Because) all is coming.

[zenbrook]

"real" in the sense that directed energy is real,

but in this case, only destruction can come of it.

Interesting. Now why should that be?

 

I'm not sure I would go this far. A 'magical' or 'occult' path may well be spurious - I would suggest that any and every path is by its very nature - but nonetheless I would still offer that every path has a value. Perhaps I may be so bold as to suggest that intention comes into it?

 

'The living meaning of Zen is beyond all notions. To realize it in a phrase is completely contrary to the subtle essence; we cannot avoid using words as expedients, though, but this has limitations. Needless to say, of course, random talk is useless. Nonetheless, the matter is not one-sided, so we temporarily set forth a path in the way of teaching, to deal with people.'

 

And people, it could be argued, set forth a path to keep Zen masters in their jobs

 

Peace and convivial crepes,

ZenB

[林愛偉]

 

And people, it could be argued, set forth a path to keep Zen masters in their jobs

 

Peace and convivial crepes,

ZenB

 

 

I like this one.

 

And why would they keep Chan Masters in thier jobs? Because those people would still be ignorant, and still see there is a master who indeed has knowledge, when infact...there is no master and there is no knowledge to be masterful over.

 

 

It is the attachment to things that create a teaching. No attachment, no teaching.

 

 

Peace,

Aiwei

Edited July 15, 2007 by 林愛偉