Seeker of Wisdom Posted February 9, 2014 No, it's koans. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 9, 2014 No, it's koans. No, its both. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seeker of Wisdom Posted February 9, 2014 They read books, obviously, but not as a method of recognising unfabricated presence. Bodhidharma: A special transmission outside the scriptures Without reliance on words or letters Directly pointing to the heart of humanity Seeing into one's own nature. They use pointing-out instruction in a master-student relationship (bokusan) and koans. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 9, 2014 Most Zen people don't have a teacher or rely on Koans Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Mar-Vell Posted February 9, 2014 ... I didst have the Zen Transmission, With or without anyone's permission! It wasn't just an intermission, T'was a venerable tradition! ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted February 9, 2014 ... I didst have the Zen Transmission, With or without anyone's permission! It wasn't just an intermission, T'was a venerable tradition! ... so I got enlightened without getting frightened cos I read a koan without even knowin' the sound of one hand clap and that other strange crap to me seemed like some poo so I just said Mu! 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jetsun Posted February 9, 2014 Someone asked Master Yun-men “What is Zen?” The Master replied, “That’s it!” The questioner went on, “What is the Way” The master responded, “OK!” 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johndoe2012 Posted February 9, 2014 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW7HlfyHuos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted February 9, 2014 Someone asked Master Yun-men “What is Zen?” The Master replied, “That’s it!” The questioner went on, “What is the Way” The master responded, “OK!” This is the way .... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted February 9, 2014 Most Zen people don't have a teacher or rely on Koans then they are not really hardcore. hardcore means a Zen practitioner who observes and practices Upaya (Koan is classified under Upaya), and in Zen, Upaya must also include accepting guidance from a Roshi. Just because someone says they are a Zen student does not necessarily mean anything, least of all, a full commitment to the path of practice. Without full commitment, then you cannot call them 'Zen people' in full confidence, unless you are just using the term loosely. If you were using the term loosely, it means you are only half-hearted in terms of contributing to a more in-depth discussion. If you have no wish to contribute whole-heartedly, what is your motive in starting this topic? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) then they are not really hardcore. What a judgment to make on Zen Buddhists. Its quite debatable whether Zen requires a teacher. Sutrayana systems don't require a teacher. Either way, the primary method of Zen is reading text. Edited February 9, 2014 by RongzomFan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted February 9, 2014 What a judgment to make on Zen Buddhists. Its quite debatable whether Zen requires a teacher. Sutrayana systems don't require a teacher. Haha you made a (wrong) blanket statement about them, and you accuse me of being judgemental??? (sigh) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 9, 2014 Haha you made a (wrong) blanket statement about them, and you accuse me of being judgemental??? (sigh) C T, I am going to put you on ignore. I don't find you knowledgeable about Buddhadharma in the least, despite your avatar picture. This is not a snap decision. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yabyum24 Posted February 9, 2014 But doesn't Zen have certain similarities to Dzogchen? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 9, 2014 But doesn't Zen have certain similarities to Dzogchen? Yes they both recognize unfabricated presence. Zen practitioners do it by reading books Dzogchen practitioners have direct introduction and rushan. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) C T, I am going to put you on ignore. I don't find you knowledgeable about Buddhadharma in the least, despite your avatar picture. This is not a snap decision. you're free to do what you want, guv. edit to add 'guv'. Edited February 9, 2014 by C T Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adept Posted February 9, 2014 Either way, the primary method of Zen is reading text. I thought it was zazen, more zazen and even more zazen without relying on the written word ? Zen is simple, but very, very difficult. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yabyum24 Posted February 9, 2014 Yes they both recognize unfabricated presence. Both adhere to to the simultaneous approach, as opposed to the gradualist, as far as I know. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted February 9, 2014 I thought it was zazen, more zazen and even more zazen without relying on the written word ? Zen is simple, but very, very difficult. It is periods of sitting interspersed with other activities. The Roshi is the pillar which holds the whole practice in place for the group. Rongzom Fan is wrong to diminish the central role of the teacher in Zen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 9, 2014 Both adhere to to the simultaneous approach, as opposed to the gradualist, as far as I know. No, Zen still requires 3 incalculable eons for samyaksambuddhahood. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 9, 2014 through the 10 bhumis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yascra Posted February 9, 2014 No, Zen still requires 3 incalculable eons for samyaksambuddhahood. And you know this so well because you are at the moment practicing this system and have full memory of every single live during this eons, or are you just making a sandstorm out of hearsay, using the possibility to insult practicioners of an "opposed" school on the way? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 9, 2014 And you know this so well because you are at the moment practicing this system and have full memory of every single live during this eons, or are you just making a sandstorm out of hearsay, using the possibility to insult practicioners of an "opposed" school on the way? 3 incalculable eons and 10 bhumis are not hearsay. They are standard sutra Mahayana. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
