Yascra Posted February 9, 2014 3 incalculable eons and 10 bhumis are not hearsay. They are standard sutra Mahayana. Ok, in other words, hearsay, justified by authority. The source doesn't matter. What matters is whether you've tested things yourself and found them to be correct, worthwhile.. whatever criteria might be relevant for the particular question. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 9, 2014 Ok, in other words, hearsay, justified by authority. The source doesn't matter. What matters is whether you've tested things yourself and found them to be correct, worthwhile.. whatever criteria might be relevant for the particular question. Point to a Zen master displaying rainbow body 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tibetan_Ice Posted February 9, 2014 Point to a Zen master displaying rainbow body 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted February 10, 2014 hardcore means a Zen practitioner who observes and practices Upaya (Koan is classified under Upaya), and in Zen, Upaya must also include accepting guidance from a Roshi. Yes, guidance from a teacher, is indispensable in this sect. Dharma talks and pointing-out instructions are a prime feature: http://thetaobums.com/topic/33392-a-zen-koan/ It's not enough to just read a book of koans or public cases. Ch'an/Zen/Seon requires a teacher-student relationship. A student is assigned a koan to work with, which they then periodically report to the teacher for clarification/instructions and to test their understanding. I thought it was zazen, more zazen and even more zazen without relying on the written word ? Zen is simple, but very, very difficult. It depends on the school. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted February 10, 2014 Yes, guidance from a teacher, is indispensable in this sect. Dharma talks and pointing-out instructions are a prime feature: http://thetaobums.com/topic/33392-a-zen-koan/ It's not enough to just read a book of koans or public cases. Ch'an/Zen/Seon requires a teacher-student relationship. A student is assigned a koan to work with, which they then periodically report to the teacher for clarification/instructions and to test their understanding. It depends on the school. SJ, thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 10, 2014 Yes, guidance from a teacher, is indispensable in this sect. Dharma talks and pointing-out instructions are a prime feature: http://thetaobums.com/topic/33392-a-zen-koan/ It's not enough to just read a book of koans or public cases. Ch'an/Zen/Seon requires a teacher-student relationship. A student is assigned a koan to work with, which they then periodically report to the teacher for clarification/instructions and to test their understanding. Your quoting yourself? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Transfiguration_Raphael.jpg Edited February 10, 2014 by RongzomFan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yascra Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Point to a Zen master displaying rainbow body Lol, liking your own posts? Well, you know .. it's pityable that there seem to be buddhist schools that consider form attainments to be enlightenment. At least the Zen school still contains the knowledge that this ain't so. I expect your teacher for a talk in my room, btw, send him my invitation for 7:30 pm. If he doesn't appear you might do this yourself, but if both of you skip that opportunity, I think I'll draw my conclusions ;-) European time, just if your clairvoyance shouldn't be sufficient to be aware of this ;-) Edited February 10, 2014 by Yascra 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted February 10, 2014 Your quoting yourself? Yeah, I didn't feel like typing something, so I thought it appropriate to repost that. If you feel it's inaccurate, you can get clarification here: http://www.zenforuminternational.org/viewforum.php?f=32&sid=a2dab359c5b9fa5f01f023ad053bf4a1 Well, you know .. it's pityable that there seem to be buddhist schools that consider form attainments to be enlightenment. At least the Zen school still contains the knowledge that this ain't so. http://thetaobums.com/topic/33574-substance-dualism-in-buddhadharma/ The theory of the body of light is predicted on the fundamental state of reality being something called wisdom, which has five lights, which are reified as physical matter. Upon completion of the path, one sees this matter in its real nature once again and the elements of the body "revert" to their original nature as wisdom (i.e. through the process of thogal one eradicates all the afflictive obscurations which prevent one from seeing things just as they are (yathabhutaṃ)); Body of light is a realization.... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted February 10, 2014 http://thetaobums.com/topic/33574-substance-dualism-in-buddhadharma/ The theory of the body of light is predicted on the fundamental state of reality being something called wisdom, which has five lights, which are reified as physical matter. Upon completion of the path, one sees this matter in its real nature once again and the elements of the body "revert" to their original nature as wisdom (i.e. through the process of thogal one eradicates all the afflictive obscurations which prevent one from seeing things just as they are (yathabhutaṃ)); Body of light is a realization.... Good point. The light body is not something you "build", it is the natural process (and realization) of ongoing clarity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seeker of Wisdom Posted February 10, 2014 What a judgment to make on Zen Buddhists. Its quite debatable whether Zen requires a teacher. Sutrayana systems don't require a teacher. Either way, the primary method of Zen is reading text. Practice lineages require a teacher. The primary method of Zen is definitely not reading. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seeker of Wisdom Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) 3 incalculable eons and 10 bhumis are not hearsay. They are standard sutra Mahayana. Zen isn't standard sutrayana Mahayana, though. It's not tantric, but it does work by directly recognising unfabricated presence. Koans are basically Zen's version of tekchö. Read the Platform Sutra. It isn't Vajrayana, but it very clearly has a strong flavour of it, especially of Dzogchen. Edited February 10, 2014 by Seeker of Tao 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Well, you know .. it's pityable that there seem to be buddhist schools that consider form attainments to be enlightenment. Rainbow body is Buddhahood and our natural state. Its pityable that you don't consider Buddhahood as enlightenment. At least the Zen school still contains the knowledge that this ain't so. Enlightenment in Zen is still Buddhahood. Edited February 10, 2014 by RongzomFan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 10, 2014 Zen isn't standard sutrayana Mahayana, though. Yes it is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) It's not tantric, but it does work by directly recognising unfabricated presence. Yes I said that. especially of Dzogchen. Just because you recognize unfabricated presence doesn't make it like Dzogchen. Even Mahamudra is not like Dzogchen at all. Edited February 10, 2014 by RongzomFan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 10, 2014 Practice lineages require a teacher. The primary method of Zen is definitely not reading. Even if you have a teacher, the primary method of Zen is reading text. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted February 10, 2014 Zen isn't standard sutrayana Mahayana, though. It's not tantric, but it does work by directly recognising unfabricated presence. Koans are basically Zen's version of tekchö. Read the Platform Sutra. It isn't Vajrayana, but it very clearly has a strong flavour of it, especially of Dzogchen. Recognizing "unfabricated presence" is not the ultimate aim when using koans as a method for realization. IMO, it's best to keep Zen and Dzogchen separate and to not conflate the principles of their respective paths, since the path of Dzogchen has a unique approach with specific ways of using its terminology. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 10, 2014 Recognizing "unfabricated presence" is not the ultimate aim when using koans as a method for realization. Isn't it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted February 10, 2014 Isn't it? Nope. If anyone wants clarification, on the usage of koans, then I recommend asking those questions here: http://www.zenforuminternational.org/viewforum.php?f=32. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted February 10, 2014 I thought it was zazen, more zazen and even more zazen without relying on the written word ? Zen is simple, but very, very difficult. It depends on the school. I should have included that it depends on the teacher also: http://www.zenforuminternational.org/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=9625 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yascra Posted February 10, 2014 Its pityable that you don't consider Buddhahood as enlightenment. Interesting that you mention this. For in a particular sense it is not Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yabyum24 Posted February 10, 2014 Even Mahamudra is not like Dzogchen at all. So this dude and (Karma Chagmey Rinpoche) are telling porkies? Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche, Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 10, 2014 They are complementary. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yabyum24 Posted February 10, 2014 They are complementary. Ah okay, I'll let you off on that Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted February 10, 2014 Even Karma Chagme admits that these paths don't line up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
