Zen Sutrayana Approach to Recognizing Unfabricated Presence

[Tibetan_Ice]

Tummo, Kumbhaka etc. are physical methods that stop the winds.

 

Meditation doesn't do that.

Wrong. Various sources including Alan Wallace say that just letting mind be will stop the winds.

[Simple_Jack]

Wrong. Various sources including Alan Wallace say that just letting mind be will stop the winds.

 

It should be understood, that RongzomFan's statements, are rhetorical devices which differentiate the sutric and tantric POV.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Jeff]

Very true. Someone could also potentially misinterpret that statement to be equivalent to the jhana of infinite space. There is no limit to the possibility for someone to misapprehend various meditational experiences as the "realization of emptiness". According to Buddhism, to even have the opportunity to come across these teachings, requires a lot of merit on the part of the individual. Which is why it's considered tremendously meritorious to have the opportunity to hear, contemplate, meditate on the profound instructions on emptiness as explicated in the sutras, shastras, tantras, etc.

 

Yes. I think that we can agree, that if someone is "meditating and has an experience", by definition, it could not be the realization of emptiness.

[RongzomFan]

Wrong. Various sources including Alan Wallace say that just letting mind be will stop the winds.

 

no

[RongzomFan]

It should be understood, that RongzomFan's statements, are rhetorical devices

 

No

[RongzomFan]

Milarepa said even a little bit of tummo was better than Gampopa's long meditation.

http://books.google.com/books?id=OixlLsoIBXEC&pg=PA36&dq=milarepa+short+ah+gampopa&hl=en&sa=X&ei=58r7UtvPLoflsASP0oDgAg&ved=0CDIQuwUwAQ#v=onepage&q=milarepa short ah gampopa&f=false

 

 

"Sutra for example, has no methods to reduce the movement of vāyu to such an extent that such "subtle minds" are accessed. In sutra methods, the movements of mind are always coarse --"

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3943&p=36798#p36798

Edited February 13, 2014 by RongzomFan

[yabyum24]

Milarepa said even a little bit of tummo was better than Gampopa's long meditation.

Question: Do Dzogchenpas practice tummo?

[RongzomFan]

Question: Do Dzogchenpas practice tummo?

 

Yes

Edited February 13, 2014 by RongzomFan

[yabyum24]

Yes

But why? It's a gradualist training.

[RongzomFan]

But why? It's a gradualist training.

 

I would respond, but I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Yascra]

I would respond, but I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

Tummo fire practice has stages.

[Yascra]

"Sutra for example, has no methods to reduce the movement of vāyu to such an extent that such "subtle minds" are accessed. In sutra methods, the movements of mind are always coarse --"

 

In my experience they are not. How many of them did you try before coming to this conclusion?

[asunthatneversets]

Tummo, Kumbhaka etc. are physical methods that stop the winds.

 

Meditation doesn't do that.

 

Meditation will pacify the winds eventually, but it is a far longer process and doesn't allow for the same level of control. Śamatha will do the trick eventually though, as mentioned per Dudjom Lingpa (by way of Alan Wallace) like Tibetan Ice referenced above.

[RongzomFan]

Meditation will pacify the winds eventually

 

 

"Sutra for example, has no methods to reduce the movement of vāyu to such an extent that such "subtle minds" are accessed. In sutra methods, the movements of mind are ***ALWAYS COARSE***--"

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3943&p=36798#p36798

Edited February 13, 2014 by RongzomFan

[RongzomFan]

Śamatha will do the trick eventually though, as mentioned per Dudjom Lingpa (by way of Alan Wallace) like Tibetan Ice referenced above.

 

Where does Dudjom Lingpa say samatha will stop the winds?

 

Dudjom Lingpa himself was the biggest tummo practitioner around.

[Yascra]

What's the point about quoting the mess some guy from another board wrote, and that even more than once? Has he attained rainbow-body?

[RongzomFan]

What's the point about quoting the mess some guy from another board wrote, and that even more than once? Has he attained rainbow-body?

 

Because Loppon Namdrol knows what hes talking about.

 

His teacher, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, did attain rainbow body.

Edited February 13, 2014 by RongzomFan

[Simple_Jack]

What's the point about quoting the mess some guy from another board wrote, and that even more than once? Has he attained rainbow-body?

 

It should be understood, that the majority of Loppon-la's posts, are meant to differentiate the views and praxis of each vehicle, from the POV of each respective vehicle.

[Yascra]

Because Loppon Namdrol knows what hes talking about.

 

His teacher, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, did attain rainbow body.

 

Well, a teachers attainments don't secure any disciples understanding, and believing due to some kind of authority, especially in our times, is for fools who care so little about those they should liberate that they don't even look whether some kind of metal is precious at all, let alone test a teacher like you would test gold.

 

Actually I know what I'm talking about concerning Sutras, as I know quite some of them that may even lead you to liberation if received with an open mind, let alone "refined states", and definitely more refined states than some Tantra practicioners ever reach.

They are a link to one's true nature, and many may lead you to this true nature in a secure way. Tantra stuff may just be a link to some magical power, in some cases at least. Nothing of value to someone who knows he or she will loose his or her memory as well as body when undergoing physical death.

There is no such thing as a fixed state. Rainbow body is no exception to this.

 

edit: Well, but we're going off topic, so maybe BTT

Edited February 13, 2014 by Yascra

[Yascra]

It should be understood, that the majority of Loppon-la's posts, are meant to differentiate the views and praxis of each vehicle, from the POV of each respective vehicle.

 

Actually I think that, if this guy wants to discuss things over here, he should get an account on himself instead of having others speak for him, you know, and speaking for someone who can't say anything towards this is actually not very fair towards this person.

On the other hand, if you want to do some fan stuff, I'd recommend you to do this on this particular other board.

Thanks in advance.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Yascra

[RongzomFan]

I'm putting you on ignore. Not specifically for those comments. But your previous comments indicate you don't even know what you are talking about most of the time.

[yabyum24]

I would respond, but I have no idea what you are talking about.

As Yascra rightly said "Tummo fire practice has stages." It's by default gradualist and not spontaneous, so why do Dzogchenpas do it when they have more direct means?

[Yascra]

I'm putting you on ignore.

 

Yeah, I know. It's okay. Don't take it too hard

[RongzomFan]

As Yascra rightly said

 

I'm putting you on ignore too

[Yascra]

you don't even know what you are talking about most of the time.

 

I think I did already ask you according to how many sutras you practiced till now, and I think you didn't answer, right?

So .. how many Sutras did you READ, at least, before you concluded that you're much more qualified to judge some things than people who work with these?

Did you ask yourself how many Sutras your other-board-source did read before drawing his conclusions?

 

That are not theoretical things, you know. Being able to reflect such things is the foundation of correct contemplation practice. So it actually tells a LOT if s.thing like this does obviously never happen.