Zen Sutrayana Approach to Recognizing Unfabricated Presence

[RongzomFan]

That's fine RongzomFan. Nobody expects anyone else to have all the answers. If you don't understand, then don't worry.

 

Why would I be expected to understand what you two are talking about?

[Simple_Jack]

I agree that commentary can be very helpful. As an example, I think many get confused in the meaning of above usage of "meditation". It could be misinterpreted to something like "the focusing on or contemplation of space" relates to the realization of emptiness. The true meaning of meditation seems to be lost.

 

Space is also not "truly existent". Nirvana is not truly existent.

 

Read the Heart Sutra again, in case you forgot.

 

...even uncompounded phenomena — of which Mahāyāna Buddhism recognizes only four: space, the two cessations and emptiness — are not truly existent. ~ Loppon Malcolm

[Jeff]

Space is also not "truly existent". Nirvana is not truly existent.

Read the Heart Sutra again, in case you forgot.

 

...even uncompounded phenomena — of which Mahāyāna Buddhism recognizes only four: space, the two cessations and emptiness — are not truly existent. ~ Loppon Malcolm

 

Hi SJ,

 

I don't quite understand your point on commenting on my usage of "space" as an analogy. I was just responding to your use of it in your posted quote and the possible misunderstanding of the word "meditation".

 

You said...

"Malcolm: Here, when we say non-conceptual, we do not mean a mind in which there is an absence of thought.

 

When consciousness is freed from signs and characteristics, this is called the realization of emptiness. An non-conceptual mind may still indeed be trapped by signs and characteristics. Thus, the Bodhittavivarana states:

 

Abiding in the mind without objects

has the characteristic of space;

that meditation of space is

held to be the meditation of emptiness."

 

On a personal level, I think that the meditation of space is only marginally helpful in the realization of emptiness. As the Heart Sutra you recommended states. Emptiness is the realization of both...

 

Form = Void and Void = Form.

 

The meditation of space helps with the first half of Form = Void, but not in the deeper and harder aspect to realize that Void = Form.

 

Also, the Lankavatara sutra also takes a pass on the second half while just calling it the emptiness of "ultimate reality". Truly fully realizing the second half is the effective difference of a Buddha.

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

 

[RongzomFan]

Another book on the futility of meditation, and the superiority of tummo:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=IhPtIBEhGtYC&pg=PA132&dq=bliss+on+inner+fire+Milarepa+simply+laughed+and+said&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ta_9UqCZIbPCyAHbwoDABg&ved=0CDMQuwUwAQ#v=onepage&q=bliss%20on%20inner%20fire%20Milarepa%20simply%20laughed%20and%20said&f=false

Edited February 14, 2014 by RongzomFan

[Yascra]

Another book on the futility of meditation, and the superiority of tummo:

 

Ok, so what are you still doing here?!

Go practice tummo!

Edited February 14, 2014 by Yascra

[themiddleway]

It's a shame that so many online Buddhists discussions turn into sectarian pissing contests.

[Anderson]

It's a shame that so many online Buddhists discussions turn into sectarian pissing contests.

 

That's the sole purpose of being born as a human to participate in pissing contests

[yabyum24]

Another book on the futility of meditation, and the superiority of tummo:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=IhPtIBEhGtYC&pg=PA132&dq=bliss+on+inner+fire+Milarepa+simply+laughed+and+said&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ta_9UqCZIbPCyAHbwoDABg&ved=0CDMQuwUwAQ#v=onepage&q=bliss on inner fire Milarepa simply laughed and said&f=false

 

 

RongzomFan Tantric Approach to Attaining Tummo

 

Reading a book

 

 

...as per the OP.

Edited February 14, 2014 by yabyum24

[Simple_Jack]

Hi SJ, I don't quite understand your point on commenting on my usage of "space" as an analogy. I was just responding to your use of it in your posted quote and the possible misunderstanding of the word "meditation". You said... "Malcolm: Here, when we say non-conceptual, we do not mean a mind in which there is an absence of thought. When consciousness is freed from signs and characteristics, this is called the realization of emptiness. An non-conceptual mind may still indeed be trapped by signs and characteristics. Thus, the Bodhittavivarana states: Abiding in the mind without objects has the characteristic of space; that meditation of space is held to be the meditation of emptiness." ...

 

It wasn't directed towards you just following up your post with some quotes. Though, the usage of "space" as an analogy for emptiness, has certain contexts, which in this case means the following:

 

The cognizer perceives the cognizable;

Without the cognizable there is no cognition;

Therefore why do you not admit

That neither object nor subject exists [at all]?

The mind is but a mere name;

Apart from it's name it exists as nothing;

So view consciousness as a mere name;

Name too has no intrinsic nature.

Either within or likewise without,

Or somewhere in between the two,

The conquerors have never found the mind;

So the mind has the nature of an illusion.

The distinctions of colors and shapes,

Or that of object and subject,

Of male, female and the neuter -

The mind has no such fixed forms.

In brief the Buddhas have never seen

Nor will they ever see [such a mind];

So how can they see it as intrinsic nature

That which is devoid of intrinsic nature?

"Entity" is a conceptualization;

Absence of conceptualization is emptiness;

Where conceptualization occurs,

How can there be emptiness?

The mind in terms of perceived and perceiver,

This the Tathagatas have never seen;

Where there is the perceived and perceiver,

There is no enlightenment.

Devoid of characteristics and origination,

Devoid of substantiative reality and transcending speech,

Space, awakening mind and enlightenment

Posses the characteristics of non-duality.

~ Nagarjuna

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=15368&start=240

Loppon Malcolm: There is no entity "dependent arising", there are only phenomena that arise in dependence. Space, the two cessations and emptiness do not arise at all, so they are by definition phenomena that do not arise in dependence. Of course, this does not mean that they are not relative, for both conditioned and unconditioned phenomena are relative. Since both conditioned and unconditioned phenomena are relative, their relationship is strictly a matter of definition.

 

As for dependently origination phenomena being unconditioned, the Prajñāpāramita states "Whatever arises in dependence, that in truth does not arise". The argument can be made that even so called dependently originated phenomena are unconditioned in reality, since their production cannot be ascertained at all when subjected to ultimate analysis. Again in this respect there is no contradiction between a conventionally conditioned entity having a conventionally unconditioned nature since in reality both are merely conventions. While the former bears the latter as its nature, in reality neither the former nor the latter can stand up to ultimate analysis. In other words there are no phenomena at all that can stand up to ultimate analysis...

...space, an unconditioned phenomena, permeates all conditioned phenomena, and neither obstructs conditioned phenomena nor is obstructed by them. Emptiness, another unconditioned phenomena, likewise permeates all conditioned phenomena, neither obstructing them nor being obstructed by them.

 

It's a shame that so many online Buddhists discussions turn into sectarian pissing contests.

 

Some people can't handle Tibetan rhetoric, which is why it's inevitable, that these discussions devolve into pissing contests.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

It's a shame that so many online Buddhists discussions turn into sectarian pissing contests.

 

Where is the sectarianism?

 

Tummo is part of Sakya's Lamdre, Nyingma's Anuyoga, Gelug's Kalachakra, Kagyu's Six Yogas, Bon and Jonang.

[RongzomFan]

 

 

RongzomFan Tantric Approach to Attaining Tummo

 

Reading a book

 

 

...as per the OP.

 

You should read some books like Religion, Medicine and the Human Embryo in Tibet so you understand tantric anatomy (including Dzogchen).

Edited February 14, 2014 by RongzomFan

[RongzomFan]

Ok, so what are you still doing here?!

Go practice tummo!

 

Because Milarepa's main practice was karmamudra.

 

These are just fictitious stories.

 

 

[Yascra]

These are just fictitious stories.

 

Oops.

 

I wasn't aware that you're really making up topics about things you yourself consider "fictious".

I for my part am not talking about theory and fantastic stories.

So what about rainbow body, is that also fiction to you?

 

I pity you, dear, but I'm afraid noone's gonna be able to help you unless you really start practicing and experience that some things you might consider fantasy are very, very real.

 

But, well, if fiction is your basis for discussing these topics, I think I'm out of here.

 

All the best anyway

[RongzomFan]

[Yascra]

You'd really better work on getting your ass out of hell, boy. I think you've no idea what you're doing here.

And slandering advanced practicioners of the past is not even the worst about it.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Yascra

[RongzomFan]

And slandering advanced practicioners of the past is not even the worst about it.

 

[Yascra]

It is very, very poor that you lie about such things just because you enjoy splitting people.

 

But you know .. and I'm just making this clear for other participants writing and reading here .. openly admitting that you've been lying all the time, and then even being proud about that .. well, speaks for itself, right.

I seriously hope others will be able to draw their conclusions as well. It is bad to consciously decide to do wrong things. And you know about it. If you know ANYTHING more than the quotes from your weak idol, you'll have read some of the stuff telling you about karmic recompense for some of the things you're doing here.

I personally don't care whether you regret anything or not. Pay for it is something you'll do anyway.

 

Not that this was my decision. It's just how things work in the real world.

 

I'd advice you to make more careful decisions in the future.

[RongzomFan]

It is very, very poor that you lie about such things just because you enjoy splitting people.

 

No lying.

 

You just have a poor understanding about these topics.

[yabyum24]

You should read some books like Religion, Medicine and the Human Embryo in Tibet so you understand tantric anatomy (including Dzogchen).

Now you are joking.

[RongzomFan]

Now you are joking.

 

???

[RongzomFan]

That book contains a lot of Dzogchen excerpts including Longchenpa's embryology.

[RongzomFan]

and the 17 tantras

[gatito]

It's a shame that so many online Buddhists discussions turn into sectarian pissing contests.

 

Six "likes" (so far).

 

Says it all really.

[RongzomFan]

Six "likes" (so far).

 

Says it all really.

 

Changing your profile pic to pretend to be Buddhist.

 

Says it all really.

[Tibetan_Ice]

no

 

Yes.!!!

 

From "Pointing Out the Nature of the Mind: Dzogchen Pith Instructions of Aro Yeshe Jungne Paperback – January 1, 2012"

http://www.amazon.com/Pointing-Out-Nature-Mind-Instructions/dp/0983407401

 

Question: Regarding the Anuyoga practices which open the channels and chakras, how important are they with regard to Dzogchen?

 

Answer: Opening the channels and chakras through the practice of Anuyoga is very important and beneficial. However, you accomplish this be doing Dzgochen practice alone, without Anuyoga. when you practice Dzogchen you are focusing your mind on your own awareness. As you awareness becomes stronger and more powerful, the energy, light and power of your realization will naturally, spontaneously balance the channels, winds and essence elements of your body. You do not need to do any additional practices to achieve this. However, the Anuyoga and Mahayoga tantras say that when you do focused practice on opening your channels and chakras, you must combine this with meditation on the nature of mind. In other words, for the Anuyoga practices to work effectively, Dzogchen practice is necessary. Uniting these two is very powerful. But again, Dzogchen by itself will do everything.

 

I have read similar statements in other texts. Therefore, when Milarepa tells Gampopa to practice karmamudra as opposed to single-pointed mindfulness, yes, that would be superior to single-pointed minfulness (assuming the level of the practitioner). However, Dzogchen is not single-pointed mindfulness, it is open-minded mindfulness, there is no focus, no effort. It is the meditation of non-meditation. All occurs by itself, without the intervention of the conceptual mind or will, or any doing. The superior path for the astute practitioner.

 

 

TI

 

And Alwaysoff, good luck in your chosen path.