Zen Sutrayana Approach to Recognizing Unfabricated Presence

[Simple_Jack]

http://kagyuoffice.org/kagyu-lineage/the-golden-rosary/gampopa/

 

"...He also became interested in dharma and started to study in the Nyingma lineage from the master Bar-rey, and in the Kadam tradition with Sharpa Yonten Drak..."

 

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/approaching_buddhism/teachers/lineage_masters/how_gampopa_reached_spiritual_attainments.html

 

"...When he was about fifteen years old, he studied many Nyingma scriptures and so had tremendous knowledge of the Nyingma tradition."

[Apech]

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/approaching_buddhism/teachers/lineage_masters/how_gampopa_reached_spiritual_attainments.html

 

"...When he was about fifteen years old, he studied many Nyingma scriptures and so had tremendous knowledge of the Nyingma tradition."

 

 

Ok thanks ... I also found this after digging about in my books ...

 

 

Between the ages of nine and fifteen, Gampopa studied many tantric sādhana-s (sgrub thabs, means of achievement). With his Rnying ma teacher, Lama Jo sras Rgyal mtshan grags pa, he studied Guhyagarbhatantra (Rgyud gsang ba snying po) and some tantras of the Old Mantra.79 At fifteen, with Zangs dkar ba,80 Gampopa studied yoga and tantras, such as Saṃvara (Bde mchog).81 He received the initiation (dbang, abhiṣeka) of Saṃvara from Mar yul ba, and he also received the secret name82 Dga' ba'i rdo rje.83 While studying medicine, he also studied with Dge bshes84 Sha ra ba Yon tan grags (1070-1141).85

 

Gampopa, the Monk and the Yogi : His Life and Teachings

A thesis presented

by

Trungram Gyaltrul Rinpoche Sherpa

to

The Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the degree of

Doctor of Philosophy

in the subject of

Tibetan and Himalayan Studies

Harvard University Cambridge, Massachusetts September 2004

 

But does any of this compare with his main practice in kadampa and mahamudra? I think it just indicates he was looking around just like one of us might to see what's what.

 

Where he was strongly criticised as I understand it was his teaching of mahamudra in a non-initiatory non tantric context as part of his drawing together the mahasiddhi and kadampa lines. It was Sakhya Pandita who made the criticism.

[RongzomFan]

I agree the context is important and it's true that all jhanas below nirvana are still to some measure "conditioned". There is still subtle clinging somewhere in them. But there is a progression from grosser to more refined states ie. less and less conceptuality. Not "nowhere than to more conceptuality". I don't see how that can be applied unless the non-conceptual systems have their own straw man jhanas which they can set up and knock down. You know the suttas very well S.J. You wouldn't recognise such a description of jhana in them would you?

 

Sure, if you compare any of them to Buddhahood, they're "lacking" but if Buddhahood is the only benchmark, then everything is lacking.

 

Non-gradual systems have their own "Hashang-style" take on things (if that's not a loaded term eh?), but it's probably a case of gradual training followed by sudden non-gradual awakening. I don't have any problem with non-gradual teachings, in fact quite the opposite, but no need to skew Buddha's sutta teachings.

 

Tell Malcolm it's gonna need the mother of all explanations to convince me otherwise.

Jhanas are contrived conceptual states.

 

Vajrayana uses stuff like kumbhaka, tummo and karmamudra which rely on physical mechanisms.

Edited February 12, 2014 by RongzomFan

[yabyum24]

Jhanas are contrived conceptual states.

Source please.

[RongzomFan]

Source please.

 

Milarepa said even a little bit of tummo was better than Gampopa's long meditation.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=OixlLsoIBXEC&pg=PA36&dq=milarepa+short+ah+gampopa&hl=en&sa=X&ei=58r7UtvPLoflsASP0oDgAg&ved=0CDIQuwUwAQ#v=onepage&q=milarepa short ah gampopa&f=false

 

And I'm going by this thread as well as general tantric theory (the winds).

 

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4704

Edited February 12, 2014 by RongzomFan

[Simple_Jack]

Source please.

 

This has already been rehashed several times now. RongzomFan has already posted some other sources on the previous page:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=8zeh8VAFCvAC&pg=PA58&dq=Center+of+the+Sunlit+Sky+Gampopa+had+perfected+the+view+and+the+meditations&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TYEIUebJKMqt0AGRsIHABA&ved=0CDMQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Center%20of%20the%20Sunlit%20Sky%20Gampopa%20had%20perfected%20the%20view%20and%20the%20meditations&f=true

 

"Gampopa had perfected the view and the meditations of calm abiding and

superior insight in the Madhyamaka context according to the Kadampa system

when he came to Milarepa. When Gampopa offered his realization to him,

Milarepa said, “As for the aspect of calm abiding in your practice, however good

all of this may be, it does not go beyond being a cause for rebirth in the higher

realms of samsara. As for the aspect practice of superior insight, all of this entails

the danger of divergence into the four deviations from emptiness. It may well

serve as a remedy for some portions of reification, such as clinging to real exis-

tence. However, since it is not able to cut through the entirety of clinging to

extremes, there is the danger that the whole complex of this excellent view and

meditation itself could turn into cognitive obscurations. Hence, if one is fettered,

there is no difference between being fettered by an iron chain and being fettered

by a golden chain.” Later, Gampopa said about this, “If I had not met the great

master Milarepa, I would have risked rebirth as a long-lived god.”

Edited February 12, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[yabyum24]

 

"Gampopa had perfected the view and the meditations of calm abiding and

superior insight in the Madhyamaka context according to the Kadampa system.....

“If I had not met the great

master Milarepa, I would have risked rebirth as a long-lived god.”

He clearly didn't get the whole way ie. cessation - hence the rebirth as a god thing. But the suttas are clear that this is do-able within one life, so perhaps he was practicing something slightly different in his Kadampa system?

He was lucky to get the tummo instructions, they were clearly what he needed.

Still does not prove that jhanas lead to ever more conceptualizing though. It's clear in the suttas that they don't. I rather suspect we're talking past each other though. The Pali teachings were both geographically and culturally sundered from the Tibetan. What the Tibetans understand as sutrayana does not always correspond well with the suttas in my experience.

It's two divergent traditions which need to be taken within their own contexts.

Edited February 12, 2014 by yabyum24

[Simple_Jack]

Milarepa said even a little bit of tummo was better than Gampopa's long meditation.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=OixlLsoIBXEC&pg=PA36&dq=milarepa+short+ah+gampopa&hl=en&sa=X&ei=58r7UtvPLoflsASP0oDgAg&ved=0CDIQuwUwAQ#v=onepage&q=milarepa short ah gampopa&f=false

 

And I'm going by this thread as well as general tantric theory (the winds).

 

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4704

 

This pretty much sums it up from a tantric POV, yabyum24.

[RongzomFan]

Also, in certain practices one sees Buddhas in yab-yum, without any fabrication by the mind.

This to me indicates that karmamudra is a good practice.

 

Not to mention the fact that Mahayoga and Anuyoga are revealed the most by tertons.

Edited February 12, 2014 by RongzomFan

[RongzomFan]

 

Still does not prove that jhanas lead to ever more conceptualizing though. It's clear in the suttas that they don't.

No, even according to the suttas jhanas can screw you over by being born in the formless realm etc.

[RongzomFan]

What the Tibetans understand.....

 

 

Tibetan Buddhism is the direct heir to Indian Buddhism.

[Simple_Jack]

 

He clearly didn't get the whole way ie. cessation - hence the rebirth as a god thing. But the suttas are clear that this is do-able within one life, so perhaps he was practicing something slightly different in his Kadampa system?

He was lucky to get the tummo instructions, they were clearly what he needed.

Still does not prove that jhanas lead to ever more conceptualizing though. It's clear in the suttas that they don't. I rather suspect we're talking past each other though. The Pali teachings were both geographically and culturally sundered from the Tibetan. What the Tibetans understand as sutrayana does not always correspond well with the suttas in my experience.

It's two divergent traditions which need to be taken within their own contexts.

 

I think you've missed the point of the critique of jhanic states, from a tantric POV, since the context of "conceptual" does not refer to gross conceptual thoughts, but the contrived factors which comprise each jhana, which are held as the object of meditation, creating contrived states of experience; making them "conceptual".

 

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4704&start=40

 

All eight dhyanas are conceptual because their object is a concept, therefore, the mind that holds the object is conceptual. It may not be a diffuse conceptual mind, but it is a conceptual mind since it holds a concept, for example, "infinite space". ~ Malcolm

Edited February 12, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Jeff]

 

He clearly didn't get the whole way ie. cessation - hence the rebirth as a god thing. But the suttas are clear that this is do-able within one life, so perhaps he was practicing something slightly different in his Kadampa system?

He was lucky to get the tummo instructions, they were clearly what he needed.

Still does not prove that jhanas lead to ever more conceptualizing though. It's clear in the suttas that they don't. I rather suspect we're talking past each other though. The Pali teachings were both geographically and culturally sundered from the Tibetan. What the Tibetans understand as sutrayana does not always correspond well with the suttas in my experience.

It's two divergent traditions which need to be taken within their own contexts.

 

Could you further explain your cessation point? How is that the final point? Is that not a Hindu/yoga view, and is not sutra pretty clear on the difference between buddhahood and cessation?

 

Thanks,

Jeff

[Simple_Jack]

Could you further explain your cessation point? How is that the final point? Is that not a Hindu/yoga view, and is not sutra pretty clear on the difference between buddhahood and cessation?

 

There are two kinds of "cessation" in Hinayana, one refers to the cessation of apperception and feeling, the other refers to the nibbana of arahants i.e. cessation of ignorance, aggression, craving. You can read these links for more info: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7360&start=80 & http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/447451.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

Non-gradual systems have their own "Hashang-style" take on things (if that's not a loaded term eh?)...

 

FYI, "Hashang Mahayana" is a Tibetan strawman. The Dunhuang cave documents reveal a totally different take on the events and aftermath of that story. Namkhai Nyingpo and Vairotsana, among others, were said to have received teachings on Chan.

 

http://earlytibet.com/about/hashang-mahayana/

 

Jigmé Lingpa’s insistence on this distinction between the the simultaneist doctrine and the Great Perfection makes the note he attaches to the above passage quite surprising. Stepping outside of the standard model of accusation and rebuttal, he goes on to defend Hashang:

You have made the assertion that the view of Hashang[23] was like this, based on refutations such as the similarity of non-mentation to an egg.[24] Yet scriptures such as the Buddhāvataṃsaka were known to Hashang. During the debate, Kamalaśīla asked what was the cause ofsaṃsāra by the symbolic action of whirling his staff around his head. [Hashang] answered that it was the apprehender and apprehended by the symbolic action of shaking his robe out twice.[25] It is undeniable that such a teacher was of the sharpest faculties. If the non-recollection and non-mentation entail the offense of rejecting the wisdom of differentiating analysis, then the Prajñāpāramitā sūtras of the Conqueror also entail this fault. Therefore, what the view of Hashang actually was can be known by a perfect buddha, and no one else.[26]

In his defence of Hashang, Jigmé Lingpa had a precedent in the works of Longchenpa. In one section of his Heart of the Threefold Bliss (sDe gsum snying po), Longchenpa writes on the subject of the transcendence of the consequences of positive and negative actions in the context of Great Perfection practice. There is a famous statement attributed to Hashang Mahāyāna on this same subject, that virtue and sin are like black and white clouds, in that both cover up the sun. Rather than distancing himself from this, Longchenpa uses the same metaphor, and then goes on to say:

When the great master Hashang said this, those of lesser intellects could not comprehend it, but it was actually the truth.[27]

 

You can read more on Chan in Tibet and the Samye debate in these links:

 

http://earlytibet.com/2007/11/13/tibetan-chan-i-the-emperors-chan/

http://earlytibet.com/2010/03/31/tibetan-chan-iv/

http://earlytibet.com/2011/11/22/tibetan-chan-v/

http://earlytibet.com/2012/01/11/tibetan-buddhist-biographies/

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=3863&hilit=hashang

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3886&p=36060&hilit=hashang#p36060

Edited February 12, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Jeff]

Hi SJ,

 

My point was different in my question for yabyum. It was regarding the nature of realization (or level of realization) in his "didn't get the whole way" comment.

 

As described in the Lankavatara Sutra (which I believe is pretty much accepted by Zen practitioners)...

 

 

 

The exalted state of self-realisation as it relates to an earnest disciple is a state of mental concentration in which he seeks to indentify himself with Noble Wisdom. In that effort he must seek to annihilate all vagrant thoughts and notions belonging to the externality of things, and all ideas of individuality and generality, of suffering and impermanence, and cultivate the noblest ideas of egolessness and emptiness and imagelessness; thus will he attain a realisation of truth that is free from passion and is ever serene. When this active effort at mental concentration is succesful it is followed by a more passive, receptive state of Samadhi in which the earnest disciple will enter into the blissful abode of Noble Wisdom and experience its consumations in the transformations of Samapatti. This is an earnest disciple's first experience of the exalted state of realisation, but as yet there is no discarding of habit-energy nor escaping from the transformation of death.

 

Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis.

 

But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realisation.

 

Regards,

Jeff

[Simple_Jack]

Hi SJ,

 

My point was different in my question for yabyum. It was regarding the nature of realization (or level of realization) in his "didn't get the whole way" comment.

 

There's only two options, in the context of "cessation", which yabyum24 was referring to. Of course, he should be the one to elaborate on which one he was referring to. On another note, It's too bad there aren't any actual commentaries, on the "Lankavatara Sutra", that have been translated into or written in English.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Jeff]

There's only two options, in the context of "cessation", which yabyum24 was referring to. Of course, he should be the one to elaborate on which one he was referring to. On another note, It's too bad there aren't any actual commentaries, on the "Lankavatara Sutra", that have been translated into or written in English.

 

I agree that it would be nice if there was more on the Lankavatara Sutra. It is a beautiful and consise overview. I wish I would have found the text much earlier.

[Anderson]

... can you give me a link or reference for this. I know he was eclectic at an early stage but I can find no reference to practicing Dzogchen.

 

I can't give you a reference but CNNr maintains that his mahamudra is actually an example and a result of him having had a dzogchen education

[yabyum24]

 

 

No, even according to the suttas jhanas can screw you over by being born in the formless realm etc.

 

This is like saying that you shouldn't drive a car because it's potentially dangerous. It's the spurious anti-jhana propaganda which comes up time and time again when jhanas get discussed. Buddha would not have taught it, if it was not useful.

 

As far as the other points go. @ S.J. I have no issues with any of the tantric stuff you linked to, it's all good to me. What Malcom is saying about conceptual states in jhanas is just another way of saying that there is still some self-identification within them (which is true). They are graded though, becoming more refined, so the premise that they lead to "ever more conceptualization" is flawed, they lead to progressively less, as the mental unification deepens. This is well known.

 

@Jeff eventually the contemplative passes through nirodha samaapatti which follows on from 'neither perception nor non perception'. This is where the 12 dependent related links are seen for what they are. At that point liberation is attained.

 

It all listed in this sutta.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.

Obviously, considered a lesser attainment than full Buddhahood within the Mahayana school, as it is the attainment of arhatship.

[Jeff]

Hi Yabyum,

 

 

Thank you for your expansion on the point, it sounds like we are agreed. My concern is often that many just "touch" unfabricated presense and declare victory. Also, some may notice the intrinsic clarity of mind and believe they are "done". Residing is different than "noticing".

 

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

Edited February 13, 2014 by Jeff

[Simple_Jack]

I agree that it would be nice if there was more on the Lankavatara Sutra. It is a beautiful and consise overview. I wish I would have found the text much earlier.

 

This is what is generally lacking in Mahayana sutra studies in the English language. Apparently, it's common in Asia for someone to read a sutra along with its commentary. This is not commonly done in the West, since there is a general lack of translated [sutra] commentaries, from past masters of various Mahayana traditions.

 

As far as the other points go. @ S.J. I have no issues with any of the tantric stuff you linked to, it's all good to me. What Malcom is saying about conceptual states in jhanas is just another way of saying that there is still some self-identification within them (which is true). They are graded though, becoming more refined, so the premise that they lead to "ever more conceptualization" is flawed, they lead to progressively less, as the mental unification deepens. This is well known.

 

These arguments are centered around the state of mind of an individual when they are engaged in completion stage practices such as tummo, karmamudra, etc. This has to with the winds and drops, 'very subtle mind' and 'clear light mind', used to realize emptiness; in comparison to an individual who uses a 'coarse mind', of sutrayana methods, to realize emptiness. "Conceptualization" in this context, means that the mind of an individual absorbed in jhana, is not free from clinging to signs and characteristics of real existence. Emptiness is described in the Prajnaparamita Sutras as signless, wishless, markless -- http://books.google.com/books?id=X5WVKneaS-YC&q=signless+and+wishless#v=snippet&q=signless%20and%20wishless&f=false

 

In Buddhism, conceptualization, proliferations, elaborations, etc., are a reference to clinging to signs and characteristics of real existence, in both meditative and post-meditative periods:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=4461&hilit=cloudburst&start=40

 

Malcolm: Here, when we say non-conceptual, we do not mean a mind in which there is an absence of thought.

 

When consciousness is freed from signs and characteristics, this is called the realization of emptiness. An non-conceptual mind may still indeed be trapped by signs and characteristics. Thus, the Bodhittavivarana states:

 

Abiding in the mind without objects

has the characteristic of space;

that meditation of space is

held to be the meditation of emptiness.

 

Obviously, considered a lesser attainment than full Buddhahood within the Mahayana school, as it is the attainment of arhatship.

 

Nirodha samapatti, is a type of jhana which the Pali commentarial traditions, describe as attainable by both nonreturners and arahants. As far as I know, the suttapitaka does not make an explicit specification, as to whether access to this is limited to the two higher grades of saints. In fact, I haven't come across any specification, in the Pali canon, as to whether this attainment is limited to an ariya puggala, since Buddha did not describe nirodha samapatti as necessary for stream-entry nor as a defining factor for the nibbana of an arahant. Following this implication, this attainment must have also been accessible to the non-ariya sangha.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

Tummo, Kumbhaka etc. are physical methods that stop the winds.

 

Meditation doesn't do that.

[Jeff]

In Buddhism, conceptualization, proliferations, elaborations, etc., are a reference to clinging to signs and characteristics of real existence, in both meditative and post-meditative periods:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=4461&hilit=cloudburst&start=40

 

Malcolm: Here, when we say non-conceptual, we do not mean a mind in which there is an absence of thought.

 

When consciousness is freed from signs and characteristics, this is called the realization of emptiness. An non-conceptual mind may still indeed be trapped by signs and characteristics. Thus, the Bodhittavivarana states:

 

Abiding in the mind without objects

has the characteristic of space;

that meditation of space is

held to be the meditation of emptiness.

 

 

Nirodha samapatti, is a type of jhana which the Pali commentarial traditions, describe as attainable by both nonreturners and arahants. As far as I know, the suttapitaka does not make an explicit specification, as to whether access to this is limited to the two higher grades of saints. In fact, I haven't come across any specification, in the Pali canon, as to whether this attainment is limited to an ariya puggala, since Buddha did not describe nirodha samapatti as necessary for stream-entry nor as a defining factor for the nibbana of an arahant. Following this implication, this attainment must have also been accessible to the non-ariya sangha.

 

I agree that commentary can be very helpful. As an example, I think many get confused in the meaning of above usage of "meditation". It could be misinterpreted to something like "the focusing on or contemplation of space" relates to the realization of emptiness. The true meaning of meditation seems to be lost.

[Simple_Jack]

I agree that commentary can be very helpful. As an example, I think many get confused in the meaning of above usage of "meditation". It could be misinterpreted to something like "the focusing on or contemplation of space" relates to the realization of emptiness. The true meaning of meditation seems to be lost.

 

Very true. Someone could also potentially misinterpret that statement to be equivalent to the jhana of infinite space. There is no limit to the possibility for someone to misapprehend various meditational experiences as the "realization of emptiness". According to Buddhism, to even have the opportunity to come across these teachings, requires a lot of merit on the part of the individual. Which is why it's considered tremendously meritorious to have the opportunity to hear, contemplate, meditate on the profound instructions on emptiness as explicated in the sutras, shastras, tantras, etc.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Simple_Jack