Nice try, Harvard

[Taomeow]

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/10/why-are-hundreds-of-harvard-students-studying-ancient-chinese-philosophy/280356/

[BaguaKicksAss]

I love taking courses from teachers like that .

[Aeran]

That's pretty cool.

[JohnC]

Why "nice try"?

 

I think they are succeeding if people are questioning their lives....

 

John

[JohnC]

That said, Michael Puett's understanding of a lot of chinese texts seems to be veeeeeeerrrryyy scholarly.

 

You can see some of his writing here:

http://scholar.harvard.edu/puett/publications

 

I'm looking for if the class is online... sounds interesting.

 

John

[ralis]

There are several lectures on YouTube. I was hoping there might be an online course offering in the same format as MIT's Open Courseware but I found nothing.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2014 by ralis

[Taomeow]

Why "nice try"?

 

I think they are succeeding if people are questioning their lives....

 

John

 

I think you answered this with your own next post.

 

Questioning one's life is common, living it differently as a result of this questioning is rare and requires more energy investment than listening to a lecture and picking up a few tips. Living it differently does not mean holding the door for someone and smiling instead of scowling -- that's basic politeness, a worthwhile pursuit but nothing deeply transforming.

 

I'll give you an example of Classical Chinese Ethics I've observed in real life in people who follow its precepts. E.g., a Chinese friend of mine who lives his life according to that code, having been raised with it. A few years ago, his 80-year-old mom got sick in Taiwan. Simultaneously he discovered that his wife is not only cheating but preparing the legal ground behind his back for taking everything from him. Simultaneously one of his kids hit teenage years and got involved with a bad crowd, failing school, doing drugs, and expressing nothing but hatred toward her family, you know this SADFUCK (standard American drill for universally conforming kids), right? Simultaneously his old dog got partially paralyzed. Simultaneously his business was hit hard with recession and after years of working his ass off and earning good money, he started losing everything at a disturbing rate. Simultaneously a horse he rescued as part of his ongoing self-imposed mission to save doomed horses (racing horses either injured and no longer fit to race or just no longer profitable or of interest to owners, abandoned and on the road to slaughter)... well, enough said, right? A major all around life crisis. What did he do?

 

For months, he was flying to Taiwan and back every two weeks to be with his mom in the hospital; cut his losses and bailed out of his business to be a full time dad in between; refused to "put to sleep" the sick dog and tended to him as any other family member (they don't put them to sleep, you know, right? They kill them? But the public prefers kindergarten level emotional involvement -- so they call it put to sleep when they execute an animal they don't feel like taking care of because it got hard all of a sudden, just like a four-year-old would sooth herself that the dog is fine, they just put him to sleep...); and, figuring out his wife was planning to rob him blind and move on to another guy, quietly took care of the legal matters, decided to be generous to the max and give her as much as he could afford without victimizing himself and the kids in the process, overcoming bitterness and betrayal and meticulously avoiding any actions that would be about vengeance. The horse, in the meantime, was paying him back for his kindness in saving her life by being the only friend who never let him down at that point, and the only one he would tell all his troubles to. Everyone else kept seeing a calm, smiling face... That's what I meant by "nice try." If those Harvard kids proceed to live the ethics they're learning... you reckon they will?.. Or they will come out of it with that smiling face to show the world but nothing behind it except the usual?..

Edited February 10, 2014 by Taomeow

[Uroboros]

I think you answered this with your own next post.

 

Questioning one's life is common, living it differently as a result of this questioning is rare and requires more energy investment than listening to a lecture and picking up a few tips. Living it differently does not mean holding the door for someone and smiling instead of scowling -- that's basic politeness, a worthwhile pursuit but nothing deeply transforming.

 

I'll give you an example of Classical Chinese Ethics I've observed in real life in people who follow its precepts. E.g., a Chinese friend of mine who lives his life according to that code, having been raised with it. A few years ago, his 80-year-old mom got sick in Taiwan. Simultaneously he discovered that his wife is not only cheating but preparing the legal ground behind his back for taking everything from him. Simultaneously one of his kids hit teenage years and got involved with a bad crowd, failing school, doing drugs, and expressing nothing but hatred toward her family, you know this SADFUCK (standard American drill for universally conforming kids), right? Simultaneously his old dog got partially paralyzed. Simultaneously his business was hit hard with recession and after years of working his ass off and earning good money, he started losing everything at a disturbing rate. Simultaneously a horse he rescued as part of his ongoing self-imposed mission to save doomed horses (racing horses either injured and no longer fit to race or just no longer profitable or of interest to owners, abandoned and on the road to slaughter)... well, enough said, right? A major all around life crisis. What did he do?

 

For months, he was flying to Taiwan and back every two weeks to be with his mom in the hospital; cut his losses and bailed out of his business to be a full time dad in between; refused to "put to sleep" the sick dog and tended to him as any other family member (they don't put them to sleep, you know, right? They kill them? But the public prefers kindergarten level emotional involvement -- so they call it put to sleep when they execute an animal they don't feel like taking care of because it got hard all of a sudden, just like a four-year-old would sooth herself that the dog is fine, they just put him to sleep...); and, figuring out his wife was planning to rob him blind and move on to another guy, quietly took care of the legal matters, decided to be generous to the max and give her as much as he could afford without victimizing himself and the kids in the process, overcoming bitterness and betrayal and meticulously avoiding any actions that would be about vengeance. The horse, in the meantime, was paying him back for his kindness in saving her life by being the only friend who never let him down at that point, and the only one he would tell all his troubles to. Everyone else kept seeing a calm, smiling face... That's what I meant by "nice try." If those Harvard kids proceed to live the ethics they're learning... you reckon they will?.. Or they will come out of it with that smiling face to show the world but nothing behind it except the usual?..

 

Excellent! Your friend appears to have a solid core principles as a foundation to go through all that without giving up, making horrid mistakes out of emotional/ exhaustion.

 

That level of development in a person does seem to be rare...That much change and chaos, is chaotic! heh.

 

I think some would find that their hearts connect with the teachings enough to get to the place your friend is in. They probably wont get there by taking the class, it will introduce them, though.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience of your friends, Taomeow!

 

Peace

[BaguaKicksAss]

A lot of people, if they are going to have some major life change, or change it their way of thinking, it tends to come while they are in college. Many of the programs (at least here) challenge your previously held viewpoints and actually make you think.

 

The crappy teachers just recite what is in a book; the good teachers make you think, and will often give assignments which bring about growth.

 

If the seeds are planted...

 

Also many teachers I have talked with are happy if even *one* person's life is changed in a major way for the better. It is sort of the reason why they took up teaching, instead of a job which pays better, such as garbage truck driving.

[Rara]

I like what's going on here. I know so many philosophy students in the UK that are just studying and not applying one bit! So they don't know what to do with their lives!

[Rara]

 

I think you answered this with your own next post.

 

Questioning one's life is common, living it differently as a result of this questioning is rare and requires more energy investment than listening to a lecture and picking up a few tips. Living it differently does not mean holding the door for someone and smiling instead of scowling -- that's basic politeness, a worthwhile pursuit but nothing deeply transforming.

 

I'll give you an example of Classical Chinese Ethics I've observed in real life in people who follow its precepts. E.g., a Chinese friend of mine who lives his life according to that code, having been raised with it. A few years ago, his 80-year-old mom got sick in Taiwan. Simultaneously he discovered that his wife is not only cheating but preparing the legal ground behind his back for taking everything from him. Simultaneously one of his kids hit teenage years and got involved with a bad crowd, failing school, doing drugs, and expressing nothing but hatred toward her family, you know this SADFUCK (standard American drill for universally conforming kids), right? Simultaneously his old dog got partially paralyzed. Simultaneously his business was hit hard with recession and after years of working his ass off and earning good money, he started losing everything at a disturbing rate. Simultaneously a horse he rescued as part of his ongoing self-imposed mission to save doomed horses (racing horses either injured and no longer fit to race or just no longer profitable or of interest to owners, abandoned and on the road to slaughter)... well, enough said, right? A major all around life crisis. What did he do?

 

For months, he was flying to Taiwan and back every two weeks to be with his mom in the hospital; cut his losses and bailed out of his business to be a full time dad in between; refused to "put to sleep" the sick dog and tended to him as any other family member (they don't put them to sleep, you know, right? They kill them? But the public prefers kindergarten level emotional involvement -- so they call it put to sleep when they execute an animal they don't feel like taking care of because it got hard all of a sudden, just like a four-year-old would sooth herself that the dog is fine, they just put him to sleep...); and, figuring out his wife was planning to rob him blind and move on to another guy, quietly took care of the legal matters, decided to be generous to the max and give her as much as he could afford without victimizing himself and the kids in the process, overcoming bitterness and betrayal and meticulously avoiding any actions that would be about vengeance. The horse, in the meantime, was paying him back for his kindness in saving her life by being the only friend who never let him down at that point, and the only one he would tell all his troubles to. Everyone else kept seeing a calm, smiling face... That's what I meant by "nice try." If those Harvard kids proceed to live the ethics they're learning... you reckon they will?.. Or they will come out of it with that smiling face to show the world but nothing behind it except the usual?..

This is very good of your friend. So admirable to the point that it really made me self-reflect rather than simply justify to myself that I'm doing enough. I tend to do that a lot.

 

Two questions though. Do you really think it is the best option in regard to how he handled his wife? Isn't this submissive and self-sabbotaging. If he quit his business, surely his assets and money are of more value than ever...especially if he has dependents...

 

And how do we know how the students will react to such a course? By saying "nice try", you seem somewhat synical (forgive me if I'm wrong...just my interpretation)

[Rara]

There are several lectures on YouTube. I was hoping there might be an online course offering in the same format as MIT's Open Courseware but I found nothing.

 

 

Very cool. I just finished the Book of Chuang Tzu last month so this was interesting to look back

[BaguaKicksAss]

Any teacher can take his approach.... a meditation teacher.... a martial arts teacher...

 

Sometimes I find that I'm teaching more about life than the lower dantien .

[Songtsan]

It's a good thing to plant seeds in fertile ground. If the student's mind isn't fertile, then no harm done, seeds (knowledge seeds that is), are a dime a dozen. When that 'fertile ground' student takes the class, it will merely be a jumping off point for them to continue down the road of growth and maturity.

 

I think it would be really cool if a truly enlightened Taoist master decided to simply go and teach in a college setting. Too often, those, 'almost enlightened, but not quite ripe' ones get all greedy and want to make their name big and start some kind of dynasty. Imagine how many more students, minds ripe for shaping, one could contact in a college setting! Those are the years of positive outlook and curiosity max!

 

When I start teaching, I am definitely going to teach in a community college. I will turn out future Buddhas in droves... All people are future Buddhas of course! What I really, really mean is that I plan on jump starting those Buddhas...

 

wait and see!

Edited February 13, 2014 by Songtsan

[Stosh]

I think you answered this with your own next post.

 

Questioning one's life is common, living it differently as a result of this questioning is rare and requires more energy investment than listening to a lecture and picking up a few tips. Living it differently does not mean holding the door for someone and smiling instead of scowling -- that's basic politeness, a worthwhile pursuit but nothing deeply transforming.

 

I'll give you an example of Classical Chinese Ethics I've observed in real life in people who follow its precepts. E.g., a Chinese friend of mine who lives his life according to that code, having been raised with it. A few years ago, his 80-year-old mom got sick in Taiwan. Simultaneously he discovered that his wife is not only cheating but preparing the legal ground behind his back for taking everything from him. Simultaneously one of his kids hit teenage years and got involved with a bad crowd, failing school, doing drugs, and expressing nothing but hatred toward her family, you know this SADFUCK (standard American drill for universally conforming kids), right? Simultaneously his old dog got partially paralyzed. Simultaneously his business was hit hard with recession and after years of working his ass off and earning good money, he started losing everything at a disturbing rate. Simultaneously a horse he rescued as part of his ongoing self-imposed mission to save doomed horses (racing horses either injured and no longer fit to race or just no longer profitable or of interest to owners, abandoned and on the road to slaughter)... well, enough said, right? A major all around life crisis. What did he do?

 

For months, he was flying to Taiwan and back every two weeks to be with his mom in the hospital; cut his losses and bailed out of his business to be a full time dad in between; refused to "put to sleep" the sick dog and tended to him as any other family member (they don't put them to sleep, you know, right? They kill them? But the public prefers kindergarten level emotional involvement -- so they call it put to sleep when they execute an animal they don't feel like taking care of because it got hard all of a sudden, just like a four-year-old would sooth herself that the dog is fine, they just put him to sleep...); and, figuring out his wife was planning to rob him blind and move on to another guy, quietly took care of the legal matters, decided to be generous to the max and give her as much as he could afford without victimizing himself and the kids in the process, overcoming bitterness and betrayal and meticulously avoiding any actions that would be about vengeance. The horse, in the meantime, was paying him back for his kindness in saving her life by being the only friend who never let him down at that point, and the only one he would tell all his troubles to. Everyone else kept seeing a calm, smiling face... That's what I meant by "nice try." If those Harvard kids proceed to live the ethics they're learning... you reckon they will?.. Or they will come out of it with that smiling face to show the world but nothing behind it except the usual?..

Youre making a sound point Tm , but, what is your solution to the problem? whats the thing that flips the switch , shakes the foundations of ones mindset, the fire that burns the tangles to ashes?

[Grigory]

The cynic in me thinks the course is so popular because it satisfies one of the core requirements for those students.

 

The optimist in me says "so what? At least a few of them might change their lives for the better."

[Songtsan]

I think I truly will try to teach a class at my community college - I have connections! yes I do! hee hee!

[Songtsan]

I love you TaoMeow!

[Taomeow]

Thank you, Songtsan!

[Songtsan]

[Taomeow]

Youre making a sound point Tm , but, what is your solution to the problem? whats the thing that flips the switch , shakes the foundations of ones mindset, the fire that burns the tangles to ashes?

 

As my once-guru used to say, just because there's a problem doesn't mean there's a solution.

 

What's the solution to the irreversible? What we've done (or as I suspect, what someone else has done by sticking their hands inside us and puppet-manipulating us) may not be redeemable. We've been here two million years. Scale it down so each million equals one day, we've been here for 48 hours, of which the first 47 we survived by being good to each other, and in the last hour all of a sudden started screwing each other over, and in the last minute of the last hour, everything and everybody else, e.g. destroying 50% of all forests on this planet. One minute -- that's our industrial revolution in our overall history, and that's death to 50% of everything that kept us alive and well in the duration of all the countless "minutes" that went before. What will happen in the next minute?.. You've asked a pessimist...

 

I have some hopes for magic.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

We must have hope.

 

Nothing is impossible.

...

[Stosh]

As my once-guru used to say, just because there's a problem doesn't mean there's a solution.

 

What's the solution to the irreversible? What we've done (or as I suspect, what someone else has done by sticking their hands inside us and puppet-manipulating us) may not be redeemable. We've been here two million years. Scale it down so each million equals one day, we've been here for 48 hours, of which the first 47 we survived by being good to each other, and in the last hour all of a sudden started screwing each other over, and in the last minute of the last hour, everything and everybody else, e.g. destroying 50% of all forests on this planet. One minute -- that's our industrial revolution in our overall history, and that's death to 50% of everything that kept us alive and well in the duration of all the countless "minutes" that went before. What will happen in the next minute?.. You've asked a pessimist...

 

I have some hopes for magic.

Oh youre looking at the larger issue of its effect on all humankind and all the planet. I was just thinking about the welfare of the students that were to take the class. The whole world is too big of an issue to "solve" at one go.. but Im not so sure that pessimism is really warranted as the best attitude about the situation. Youre entitled to it though if you want it,, its not like one cant find reasons to feel that way.

My own take on it is to look at folks like John Muir , Jacques Cousteau , even M L King and Steve Irwin they each contributed in their own way toward a shift in attitudes about the environment society etc.. So that very brief period of modern time , which you are pointing out , also indicates that our own adaptation has also not been afforded a great deal of time to come to grips with population levels etc.

There is a great deal out there to point one toward optimism as well. Like a popular Harvard class about values and society.. If you want to overcome some very high expectations that it alone could solve the worlds ills. Even if the class itself was simplistic or impractical ,, the fact that the well off students at Harvard, Themselves ,were interested in it lends a brighter view of a possible future.

Theres only so much you can reasonably do , a momentum or inertia to overcome , and its just the sort of things that the perseverance of a flowing stream might erode,, given time.

[Taomeow]

Well, don't get me wrong, I actually like it when they teach something sensible instead of not. The same institution used to teach things like "scientific proof of superiority/inferiority of races" out in the open (not that it isn't taught behind closed doors anymore), so classical Chinese ethics is an improvement, a nice paint job. I'm not against those at all. But I would start hoping for any meaningful change for the better only if members of Harvard's secret societies -- Final Clubs -- the Porcellian, The Delphic Club, Owl Club, Fly Club, Fox Club, Spee Club and the Harvard Lodge took that course and took it to heart. Especially if they were joined by Yale's Skull And Bones members.

 

Unless that happens... sigh. Shifts in society's moral values are predicated on shifts in power structure -- if moral values are tweaked with but the power structure behind the tweaking does not change, they are only paint layer deep and stop there and can't go deeper. IMHO of course. (Laozi was of the same opinion though.)

Edited February 17, 2014 by Taomeow

[Stosh]

Well, don't get me wrong, I actually like it when they teach something sensible instead of not. The same institution used to teach things like "scientific proof of superiority/inferiority of races" out in the open (not that it isn't taught behind closed doors anymore), so classical Chinese ethics is an improvement, a nice paint job. I'm not against those at all. But I would start hoping for any meaningful change for the better only if members of Harvard's secret societies -- Final Clubs -- the Porcellian, The Delphic Club, Owl Club, Fly Club, Fox Club, Spee Club and the Harvard Lodge took that course and took it to heart. Especially if they were joined by Yale's Skull And Bones members.

 

Unless that happens... sigh. Shifts in society's moral values are predicated on shifts in power structure -- if moral values are tweaked with but the power structure behind the tweaking does not change, they are only paint layer deep and stop there and can't go deeper. IMHO of course. (Laozi was of the same opinion though.)

Quite reasonable , but ,, what is there that could tweak power structures?

Theres the saying, I have seen the enemy ,and he is me.

Societies moral values are heavily dependent on the basic human condition , including both its illusions and truths in measures. This is the origin of societies conceptualized "good and evil " is it not? with the firmware of its support sometimes called law , sometimes called religion, or attitudes .. and its just not a simple thing to shift this substanceless conceptual tangle... where could one grasp it ? how could one smash it ? shade it , or diminish its influence?

and yet it does change, and we all know of people we believe have shifted the course of history ,, changed public opinion.

Look back to attitudes prevalent here just one hundred years ago... many of them ,you probably do not share.

(this a SHORT hop back in time, not even the full life span that some have enjoyed- though yes many have lived and died in such a period.. for instance if I remember my own childhood it was a circumstance which still personally affects me today and therefore still is pertinent and influential ) Its just that such changes, with the invisible pace of seasons.

"Thou , young and full of life , impatient , headstrong, uncalmly lovely. ..be patient , or be not so patient , time sweeps by."