Another Lei Shan Dao/Yin Yang Gong Master?

[Oolong Rabbit]

Just found this on youtube:

 

 

 

 

I am guessing he is also Indonesian (note the Kiris swords hanging on his wall). Actually, I just read that he is Malaysian. The egg scene actually makes me wonder as I have seen that faked by magicians before.

[Oolong Rabbit]

Out of curiosity has anyone ever investigated whether Lei Shan Dao/Yin Yang Gong are derived from Vajrayana Buddhism (vajra = thunderbolt).

 

"Java

In the late 8th century, Indian models of Vajrayana traveled directly to the Indonesian island of Java where a huge temple complex at Borobudur was soon built. Vajrayana Buddhism would survive in Indonesia and Malaysia until eclipsed by Islam in the 13th century."

 

http://www.thaiexotictreasures.com/vajraya...ayan%20kingdoms

[Spectrum]

[Oolong Rabbit]

[agharta]

The correct translation is "diamond thunderbolt". From what my teacher taught me, the "diamond" part of it refers to the path the lightning takes, specifically, an angled path. Diamonds have angles. Anyway, that's what he taught.

[Ryan McCoole]

The correct translation is "diamond thunderbolt". From what my teacher taught me, the "diamond" part of it refers to the path the lightning takes, specifically, an angled path. Diamonds have angles. Anyway, that's what he taught.

 

Yeah I think Kosta said that that’s the shape the earth makes when the thunderbolt (yang energy) strikes the ground. Also, the shape itself, being held together in the center is a hint at the Dan Tien as a center for generation and gathering of Qi? I’d have to look in the book again to be sure.

 

The Hui Ming Ching states:

 

“If thou wouldst complete the diamond body with no outflowing,?

Diligently heat the roots of consciousness and life.?

Kindle light in the blessed country ever close at hand,

And there hidden, let thy true self always dwell.”

 

 

Any thoughts to the Bums? It might be that to achieve true Dao you must “heat” your Dantien via your Yi (intention) to wake the Qi, and if you remain in your center in meditation and daily life for…however long…you’ll saturate your charkas with Qi to the point it completely re-organizes your being?

 

Musings…

 

-Ryan

Edited July 15, 2007 by Ryan McCoole

[Spectrum]

[Todd]

Edited July 15, 2007 by Todd

[Ryan McCoole]

Spectrum, I really like that "soup" analogy...very good flavor of word choice

 

Todd, interesting interpretation. The diamond body is that sacred "work", that spiritual evolution which has potential in all of us...or so I read it.

 

Oh the question marks were a code error when I copied and pasted the text. Sorry about that.

 

The words mean "The Book of Consciousness and Life" if I'm correct (seldom am), but I think that's what it means. See Spectrum's post above on the "diamond" part.

 

There is an alchemy tone in here as well, for the drawing that accompanies the verse is of a man with a microcosmic orbit within him (one pathway), and the semen pathway out of the body ("the outflowing" of Jing).

 

Be well!

[Spectrum]

Spectrum, I really like that "soup" analogy...very good flavor of word choice

...

 

There is an alchemy tone in here as well, for the drawing that accompanies the verse is of a man with a microcosmic orbit within him (one pathway), and the semen pathway out of the body ("the outflowing" of Jing).

 

Be well!

 

 

Sei Gung once said over dinner that after his first few years of training he no longer moved through thin air, it was more like swimming through an ocean of currents. I can vouge for the seemingly malable nature of wuji. Suspended, weightless. At times heavily flowing, sometimes, heavy yet skimming lightly off the surface. Relavent metaphor often includes the elements and music.

 

The kinesthetic body does seem to float at times in empti space defined by wuji. Other times there is a certain thickness felt that I think earl montahuge described as feeling like "honey" flowing over his skin.

 

Arcs, Spheres, S Shapes and Figure 8's : Wuji Yin Yang Tai Chi. These basic shapes that are followed in the gung fu forms and taiji produce a resonation pattern. This is like the feeling of skating that lasts, or micro circulations of water after swimming. Ie taiji pumps the water around nicely, circulating it if you will. In terms of frequency of cycles, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years and so on all bring with their perception the spontaneous transmutable qualities of that long term methodical relaxation and meditation bring. Insight into the natural state of being. Nothing more or less.

 

The diagram sounds interesting. I would offer to the thread the interpretation that the senses (or our personal identification w/ them) uses up energy in a certain way that a quiet hands off observation approach to meditation resolves. By not "actively engaging" your dialog, the most natural flow occurs, even if it's a differently modulated dialog. (insert audio test tone here)

 

By not attaching (the soul) to the sensory perception, we in fact retain within what is perceived without. This type of mental detachment from sensory experience is generally accompanied by profound states of mind/body connection during meditation that could paradoxially be described as hyper sensory, or sensory blending, mesmric or alpha state... but in the Practical vernacular, sensory blending for the purpose of tending and cultivating chi. Crazy people often dwell in these states of conscousness uncontrollably, or without conscious direction. Having a guide is crucial to staying centered while practicing asetic art.

 

What is the saying i the Tao Te Jing about closing the doors and windows of the body in order to see and hear clearly?

Edited July 16, 2007 by Spectrum

[Ryan McCoole]

[Todd]

Ryan,

 

Do you know who wrote it? When? And were the illustrations originally included?

 

The alchemy is a side effect of what I described. To engage in alchemy while maintaining the sense of a self who is doing the alchemy is a lot like driving with one's foot on the brake. It might be useful if we have forgotten that it is our foot pressing on the brake pedal and we really want to get somewhere despite its presence, but it adds a whole lot of friction and is potentially dangerous. Things get a bit more complicated since sometimes we ease up the pressure we're putting on the brake pedal without really knowing what we are doing. Sometimes we really, really want to get somewhere and our unconscious says, "Allright, he really wants to get there and he's probably going to destroy our car if we don't let off the brakes," and then a letting go happens and we get somewhere way faster than we thought possible. The thing is that it was our unconscious that eased up, and as soon we stop to enjoy the view at our destination, the foot goes right back to firmly pressing on the brake. This can be a problem when we decide to go someplace again.

 

Who knows though. Maybe by going through this enough times, a realization that we've got our foot on the brake happens. Or maybe we just realize that there's smoke coming out the hood every time we drive (and the car is us, so maybe we should be a bit worried about that).

 

There are also people who develop a relationship with their unconscious, which is essentially what I did in my life as a pool player. I could get it to ease off the brakes more often than not, at least enough to get some of the things I wanted. There were all sort of neat mystical experiences-- being one with the game, which was everything, or swimming in chaos gleefully, or loving what is no matter what... Problem was, eventually I broke down. Maybe that wasn't a problem.

 

Well anyway, as you say: Be well.

 

 

Todd

Edited July 16, 2007 by Todd

[Spectrum]

The paradox makes sense though…save up more, guide your Yi and you therefore build up the proverbial “dam”, just waiting to burst forth in sensory excess, reinforcement of bad habits and gut impulse. But if you restrain and guide, you ride the infinite curves of chaos…paradoxically finding Order in Disorder.

 

For me it also brings up the question of “releasing your Jing, semen, etc.” If we don’t attach the soul, what are some of the best ways to “saturate” the charkas, without being pulled down by impulse?

 

These two thoughts seem intricately related. The "Practice" of any "Art" has it's fair share of "Missing the Mark".

 

The goal being to be one with your target as the tension releases and the arrow looses. Knowing when to let go and when to ride the wave of tension is a key of non-action and action.

 

Riding a wave of long term cultivation will produce results that don't go away with any "physical" energy releases, so I wouldn't worry about losing out. Just be consistant in training that produces results for you and the residual effects of this conservation will accumulate into longer term cycles. It's much like planting a seed and having to pull up weeds now and then. There are many small signs when you first start that will continue to grow yet dissapear seasonally and periodically.

 

Feeling "ok" supplies an endless amount of energy for practice compared to feeling "guilt". If we fail to learn from our mistakes and refuse to make incremental adjustments towards improvement, then what we do in secret can mean more for cultivation then what we do in front of others. I believe there is a Moral Compass that exists here between Human spiritual development and the Universe at Large.

 

Sex is perfectly natural and we are in the process of unlearning what has been taken for granted to be the only type of experience to have with the primary energy source of the body. No one gives you a map that shows all the paths in the forest, myth and fairy tales soon replace primordial consciousness and the heart beat of mum is replaced with the clock of the workforce. Sex gets thrown in on the weekends! Do we remember back when? Before we knew? Is it possible to kinesthetically regress? Perhaps these internal arts seem to specialize in bringing to the surface the memories that are important and slough off as the dross of refinement past traumas that conditioned the awareness to begin with. A kind of continual rebirthing process.

 

Practice always produces multi-forked results, much like the path of the thunderbolt talked about on the Vajna thread.

 

Sex can be practice. If your doing it you might as well breath with it. Where does the movement emenant? Ask yourself questions, quietly introspect, die to your former self and ride what is. I think only that dispelling associated illusions of sex and dealing with the actual "feelings in the body" you can avoid meditating or obsessing on fantasies that are unfullfillable. Its useful for genuine introspection. All this is only useful if your single. Having a mate is much easier in my opinion. Avoiding unfullfillable desires in general seems to keep things moving nicely, avoiding getting stuck on one thing, a non obsessive approach, having a gradual way to riding your energy cycles, knowing when, "it's time", and comfortably riding your down cycle (women forget that men have cycles too!), will produce a higher peak then off and on practice. Observation of your breath during what is percieved as a negative pattern will produce interesting mental effects, you'll find your way through the labryth as long as you relax and keep breathing. Flow with the Go, Let Go and Flow.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Spectrum

[Ryan McCoole]

Ryan,

 

There were all sort of neat mystical experiences-- being one with the game, which was everything, or swimming in chaos gleefully, or loving what is no matter what... Problem was, eventually I broke down. Maybe that wasn't a problem.

 

Well anyway, as you say: Be well.

Todd

 

Todd,

 

THE HUI MING CHING "The Book of Consciousness and Life"

Translated by Richard Wilhelm and rendered into English by Cary F. Baynes

1. Cessation of Outflowing

 

"The illustration found here in the Chinese text shows the body of a man. In the middle of the lower half of the body is drawn a germ cell by which the gateway of life is separated from the gateway of consciousness. In between, leading to the outside world, is the canal through which the vital fluids flow out."

 

The whole translation is available here: http://shapeless.org/huimingching.html

 

The break analogy makes sense...too often do I FORCE myself to "be relaxed" enlightened, or receptive...all of which are meaningless unless I really let my mind go and simply be. Simply flow with the chaos.

 

Could you elaborate on your "breaking down"? I too have set out on paths, only end up not satisfied or too caught up with a greed for enlightenment...its one of the risks of what all us Bums pusrue, I'd wager.

 

Yes indeed, be well Todd

 

"Life is far too an important thing to be taken seriously." -Oscar Wilde

 

...sometimes, ike you said, we need to ease up and relax

[Spectrum]

There were all sort of neat mystical experiences-- being one with the game, which was everything, or swimming in chaos gleefully, or loving what is no matter what... Problem was, eventually I broke down. Maybe that wasn't a problem.

 

... and here you are... at Tao Bums. <sideways smile>

[Todd]

 

Could you elaborate on your "breaking down"? I too have set out on paths, only end up not satisfied or too caught up with a greed for enlightenment...its one of the risks of what all us Bums pusrue, I'd wager.

 

 

Sure, I'll tell you the big parts of the story, but its not true. Its just a story I'm telling you for the fun of it. Though who knows? Maybe something will resonate.

 

The breaking down actually started in an obvious way when I was 14. I was going to be the greatest writer that ever lived. In pursuit of that I was constantly seeking fresh ways of describing things, attempting to capture the essence of things in few words. Then one day, I was looking at a tree, its branches and leaves moving with the wind, on a sunny day. I wanted to describe it, but then it hit me, that to really describe even just the appearance of this tree, as it was for even just one moment, would take a really long time. Then there was the grass beneath the tree. Then there were other trees in the distance. Then there were houses and sky and clouds and asphalt and insects and street lamps. And this is just one moment, perceived by me, from one point of view. There were six billion other people in the world when this was going on, people who all had different experiences and cultural backgrounds that they were bringing to their own particular point of view. And that was just people. And that was just this world. Basically my mind exploded. I shut up and was in awe.

 

I remember months later noticing that the part of me that I used to identify with was still going on, that there still were movements other than awe happening within me. The feeling was like a gentle breeze lightly caressing my skin. Oh there is sadness. Oh there is happiness. Footnotes to awe.

 

That was kind've powerful, an accidental breakdown of my mind. I never even considered it to be a spiritual event. As powerful as it was, there remained within me the tendency to define and to control. This tendency has turned out to be much more powerful than I ever could have imagined.

 

First there was philosophy, until that was seen as a barrier to what is. Then there were girls, who tended to tear my heart out, or else who I hurt terribly. Then there was pool, where I could watch myself grab on and let go, and I grabbed onto it until my back gave out. There were hundreds and thousands of smaller hopes and dreams. Basically life is set up to disappoint the desire to control, especially when we've lived it long enough. Somewhere in there part of me stopped trying. A lot of me was never really trying that hard, but it started to become more conscious. Standing. Sitting. Walking. Laying down. To no purpose but being. (And to repair my back, though that became much smaller than just watching what is, and never really worked out as long as it remained a desire).

 

The breaking down continues, though now at least I can see what is happening. Now I feel when I am grabbing. I have seen through many of the ways that I grab and push away, though much remains. Also I have growing confidence in truth. I basically wrote about that experience in my first of post on this thread.

 

Does any of this coincide with your experience? It doesn't make sense to talk about it if not.

 

Basically though, I'd say that breaking down is just about the best thing that we can do, just as long as we go all the way. There is more to break down than we ever imagined, so if we ever intend to do this, we might as well get started (or come back from break if thats what we are on).

 

Its fine if that isn't what seems to be happening too.

[Todd]

Even better than breaking down is realizing that this is our foot and taking it off the brake. But who wants to do that?

Edited July 16, 2007 by Todd

[freeform]

Basically life is set up to disappoint the desire to control

 

 

I like that.

 

Because we never, ever had control - ever! The human mind likes stories - it makes the world easier to navigate - it's the phenomenon of 'mapping' - we map general, hard to describe feelings and experiences in myths and legends and archetypes and in general cultural memes.

 

The mind that has little in the way of a connection to the body can't tell the difference between a story and reality. We see a man in a uniform and he is a policeman - in fact we never see the man, we never see the uniform, we just see a policeman. This is a subtle level of control. The body can't hold stories - it's simpler and more complex because it's not so linear and it isn't so binary (this - that, good - bad, policeman - civilian) it's more 'analog'. When functioning well, the body (and the lower dan tien) just witness - there is no control on that level.

 

It's easier to notice control and illusion on these subtle levels, because when the emotions are involved it gets more difficult (if you suddenly decide to notice control and illusion with the bigger things in life - work, loved ones, family etc. - watch out).

 

I used to do this often: wherever you are now, try this out: first read this, then, with your eyes open, turn them all the way to the left - then, very slowly, gradualy, turn them all the way to the right. Do it now and see what happens.

 

Did you notice whether the movement was smooth or jerky? - did your eyes and focus jump from 'object' to 'object'? I'm betting this was the case - each 'object' is a way of your mind controlling your awareness - it makes an object that you have a story about (TV) more important than the space in between the objects.

 

During my artistic days I worked out how to look and see without engaging this level of control - every good artist can do this (but they may not realise). What I do is drop down into the dan tien and learn to see without my awareness rising back up to the head. (tricky at first). This took me a while, but it improved my drawing a whole lot. What seems to happen is the peripheral vision takes over and I dont really focus on anything specific, just everything, all at once... and it's hard to see detail (reading for example), but it does produce a really still, quiet state of mind. It's kind of like what some people call 'qi gong state'. It's a state of simply allowing things into your awareness, rather than looking for things out there. (if that makes any sense lol)

 

Approaching a policeman in this state is an interesting experience. Your stillness highlights their 'noisiness' - so you sense the apprehension that he has, his own illusiory self identity and importance - and his reaction to your subtle undermining of this authority. I feel myself pulled to accept the illusion because with all his body he argues for this illusion as truth, but I deny that. Makes him feel vulnerable - which makes him protective of himself (comes out differently in different people - some get angry, so get really nice with agression fizzling inside, some just escape, some get paranoid).

 

Then try spending time with your kids in this state - do them a favour, please Give them all your attention, your heart for no reason. Kids recognise this easily. Adults get freaked out, without realising why (all this communication happens on a very subtle level) - my dad usually squirms with guilt and undeservingness when I do this.

[sunshine]

>>What I do is drop down into the dan tien and learn to see without my awareness rising back up to the head. (tricky at first).<<

 

Very interesting indeed. Part of my current acupuncture training is "resting in the 'chest area'"... this allows one to perceive "subtle things" a lot better... with training we are meant to be able to differentiate between what is our own and what a client brings into a session. From that place we then are not only meant to realize what might be the problem but to be able to work with it from there...

 

 

Harry

[freeform]

>>What I do is drop down into the dan tien and learn to see without my awareness rising back up to the head. (tricky at first).<<

 

Very interesting indeed. Part of my current acupuncture training is "resting in the 'chest area'"... this allows one to perceive "subtle things" a lot better... with training we are meant to be able to differentiate between what is our own and what a client brings into a session. From that place we then are not only meant to realize what might be the problem but to be able to work with it from there...

 

 

Harry

 

Yeah, for me the chest feels things in the moment. It's about sensations and awareness of the moment - the belly area is just still and witnessing all that.

 

There may be something to droping from head to heart to belly. Might be easier for some. I have quite an affinity with the belly - not that I dont have loads of problems there (repressed anger and tension) but I can get down there quite easy. My girlfriend finds it much easier to be in her heart (although the emotions can be a little overwhelming). One of my best friends seems most at ease when in the head (his doesn't race and 'grab' as much as mine). The enneagram actually addresses and agrees with these pre-dispositions, which really facinates me...

[sunshine]

Out of curiosity has anyone ever investigated whether Lei Shan Dao/Yin Yang Gong are derived from Vajrayana Buddhism (vajra = thunderbolt).

 

Over at the foundattion forum there is an article titled "On the Lei Shan Dao" that might give you an answer

 

It's to be found in the essay section...

 

[Eric23]

Does any of this coincide with your experience? It doesn't make sense to talk about it if not.

 

Yes.

 

Facinating thread. Lot's of wisdom among the Bums

[Spectrum]

Does any of this coincide with your experience? It doesn't make sense to talk about it if not.

 

I have no idea what we're talking about. A series of thunderstorms came through this area, we get coastal weather so the texture of the clouds often amaze me. The other night my wife and I are bouncing off the walls and I'm thinking man why are we both being so intense, I kid you not like 1 hour later this thunderstorm starts rolling in, and it's really amazing, these clouds are rolling over at hill top level (coastal range) multiple small clusters of lightning seemingly going upwards instead of down it looked crazy. So like any taobum I thought what a GrrrReATE time to practice! Under cover of the porch of coarse of coarse. I did a Trinity of Standing Postures. I think some of the most profound moments where when psychologically everything is so quiet... so still... naturally pulsing w/ movement, potential, then wawawawawhahwhoom ozone is permeating your skin pores are opening dan tien sinking, did I just feel a tremor, wow I should do some taiji in this, kind of meditation experiences. The natural elements really do present enough information that I really feel safe in allowing my mind to fully relax into the sensory phenomenon, let go if you will, into a divinely inspired feedback loop. It's a little more difficult around people, (soft focus) because all the memes start highlighting the perepheral field. It's lovely to do group chi gung in rythmic sync for an hour, everything quiets down and by the end of practice everyone is buzzing.

 

As the thunder clouds rolled over I wondered if I should have been practicing, seeming waves of static charge moved accross the surface of my skin, my hair rolled in goose pimples up and down my back legs down my arms, someone stirred the soup bowl. Oxygen... can you taste oxygen? The "permeability" of the experience I suppose is what surprized me most. I chilled the rest of the night practiced parts of the yang form to move things around, had a very peaceful sleep.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Spectrum

[Trunk]

[Oolong Rabbit]

Over at the foundattion forum there is an article titled "On the Lei Shan Dao" that might give you an answer

 

It's to be found in the essay section...

 

 

 

Thanks Sunshine,

 

I will have a look!