[ralis]

It seems to me that Dzogchen is more concerned with experiential which was pre axial, as opposed to investigative which is post axial.

[asunthatneversets]

I find cognition to be a loaded word when it comes to discussing the Nature of Mind. Cognition implies thought, interpretation, and discrimination in most definitions I've seen. When resting in the Nature of Mind, does cognition enter in? I'm not sure I would use that word. Certainly there is emptiness, lack of inherent existence, spaciousness. Defining sunyata (those very words are paradoxical - emptiness is undefinable) has been argued for centuries. Then there is presence, luminosity, clarity - all good words and all analogies and equally inadequate. And most profound, perhaps, is Bodhicitta. The inseparability of clarity and emptiness is great bliss, spontaneous exposure of oneness, boundless love.

 

Cognition [gsal ba] is simply the clarity of mind. The mind possesses and is defined by its characteristic of clarity, it is wakeful, bright, present and has the faculty of cognizant knowing. That factor, is what is recognized as empty, meaning unborn, lacking inherency, free from extremes when the nature of mind [sems nyid] is referenced.

 

This 'emptiness of clarity' is demonstrated in expositions such as the bāhiya sūtra and so on. Which conveys insight such as; in seeing there is only the seen, in hearing - only the heard, in thinking - only the thought. The emptiness of the clarity is the emptiness of that quality of cognizance being mistaken as a fixed reference point. So there is no 'seer' which is seeing, no 'hearer' which is hearing, no thinker of thoughts and so on. Likewise those varying modalities, exemplified by the faculties of seeing, hearing, thinking are also nothing in themselves, but rather are precisely the sheer exertion and nature of so-called cognizance.

 

The inseparability of clarity and emptiness is the nature of mind [sems nyid].

 

The nature of mind is 'non-dual emptiness and clarity', so either (i) clarity (cognizance) must be recognized as empty, or (ii) emptiness must be recognized as non-dual with clarity. Clarity (cognizance) alone implies a subtle reference point and a subtle grasping, but when clarity is sealed with emptiness that reference point is freed up and the grasping is cut. Clarity alone (divorced of the recognition of its emptiness) is merely the neutral indeterminate cognizance of mind. All sentient beings function from the standpoint of the mind, buddhas are free of mind because they know its emptiness, meaning; they know that clarity is non-arisen.

 

The inseparability of clarity and emptiness is not a 'oneness', because emptiness is a freedom from extremes. That inseparability may imply a 'single taste' or 'one taste' which is devoid of subject and object, but that doesn't mean that subject and object are merged into one [advaita], it means there is an intimate recognition that the illusory dichotomy of subject and object never arose in the first place [advaya].

Edited February 25, 2014 by asunthatneversets

[doc benway]

Cognition [gsal ba] is simply the clarity of mind.

 

This definition of cognition removes my objection.

 

[doc benway]

It seems to me that Dzogchen is more concerned with experiential which was pre axial, as opposed to investigative which is post axial.

 

You're right about that.

If there exists anyone who can abide in the Nature of Mind continuously, without break, that is all that is necessary.

There is nothing more to be done.

For most of us that is unrealistic, so there is also the component of investigation - reading, listening to explanations, getting corrections, asking questions, practicing the preliminaries, looking at our lives in order to integrate the teachings in everything we do, engaging in activity which makes it more likely for us to be successful in increasing our capacity to rest in the Nature of Mind, and so on...

But the endgame is simply to recognize and then continuously abide in the Nature of Mind in every moment.

[Paul]

The space between thoughts is a mere shyamatha technique. No one will realize rigpa this way. The masters who teach this are wrong.

[doc benway]

The space between thoughts is a mere shyamatha technique. No one will realize rigpa this way. The masters who teach this are wrong.

 

Mere shamatha?

That is a contradiction in terms, IMO.

 

Do you object to the use of shamatha as a preliminary practice in Dzogchen?

I suspect that you are familiar with the practice of zhiné.

 

I don't think the Lopon meant that this is all that is needed to realize rigpa.

He's got a pretty good idea of what Dzogchen is all about.

[Paul]

 

Mere shamatha?

That is a contradiction in terms, IMO.

 

Do you object to the use of shamatha as a preliminary practice in Dzogchen?

I suspect that you are familiar with the practice of zhiné.

 

I don't think the Lopon meant that this is all that is needed to realize rigpa.

He's got a pretty good idea of what Dzogchen is all about.

I should say common. Shyamatha is common to all various meditation systems. I do object to this method it's useless. I don't believe in every one with a title. Edited March 13, 2014 by Paul

[Simple_Jack]

Paul, when you say "realize" do you mean realizing the full measure of rigpa or do you merely mean the recognition of rigpa?

[doc benway]

I should say common. Shyamatha is common to all various meditation systems. I do object to this method it's useless. I don't believe in every one with a title.

 

Nothing common or mere about shamatha to me.

I actually think it to be quite precious.

I feel blessed to have come into contact with practices like shamatha and teachers like Lopon Tenzin Namdak.

Peace

[Tibetan_Ice]

Thoughts and Contemplation

One's relationship to the arising of thoughts is a crucial aspect of contemplation. Through observation of the arising, remaining, and dissolving of thought in emptiness, we perceive the true, empty nature of thought: thoughts are the movement of the mind and are of the same nature as the natural mind, just as waves are of the same watery nature as the sea.

 

When thoughts arise during the state of contemplation, we are aware that they arise from emptiness and that their essence is of the nature of emptiness. We are not disturbed by them but let them go, remaining in the equanimity of contemplation. In this way the natural state of emptiness becomes clearer: we encounter the union and the identity of clarity (rig pa) and emptiness (kun gzhi) directly in our own experience, so that we can then realize the inseparability of clarity and emptiness in the natural state.

 

What is important for us is to reach the condition in which we are no longer distracted or disturbed by thoughts. This is not a blank state in which thoughts are absent. In fact, the cultivation of the calm state without thoughts, if prolonged beyond the natural gap that exists between two thoughts, becomes a state of ignorance, not of presence, if in the forced absence of thoughts there is only emptiness without clarity, relaxation without presence. In the true state of contemplation we are relaxed and neither create nor block thoughts but remain present without distraction in the mind-moments of both presence and absence of thoughts. Dzogchen contemplation is presence in the state beyond thoughts because the conceptual, thought-creating mind, which is accustomed to keeping the mind's attention by its continuous production of thoughts, is at rest. The conceptual, thought-creating mind pushes the practitioner away from the relaxed state of contemplation into tension. This makes it difficult to remain relaxed in the state of contemplation for any length of time.

 

Wonders of The Natural Mind - Tenzin Wngyal

[doc benway]

I should say common. Shyamatha is common to all various meditation systems. I do object to this method it's useless. I don't believe in every one with a title.

 

Are you saying that zhiné is useless, shamatha without an object is useless, or that shamatha is altogether useless?

Not everyone follows the same path, that doesn't mean the path is useless to another just because it didn't work for you.

For those of us who are not yet able to abide in the Nature of Mind every waking and sleeping moment, shamatha practices can be very useful, in my experience and opinion.

 

I don't believe in every one without a title, either.

Belief is unnecessary - better to know or know that one does not know.

[Paul]

Paul, when you say "realize" do you mean realizing the full measure of rigpa or do you merely mean the recognition of rigpa?

to recognize; full measure is sort of wordy and has no meaning

[Paul]

Are you saying that zhiné is useless, shamatha without an object is useless, or that shamatha is altogether useless?

Not everyone follows the same path, that doesn't mean the path is useless to another just because it didn't work for you.

For those of us who are not yet able to abide in the Nature of Mind every waking and sleeping moment, shamatha practices can be very useful, in my experience and opinion.

 

I don't believe in every one without a title, either.

Belief is unnecessary - better to know or know that one does not know.

I'm saying trying to grasp the space between thoughts is a useless shamatha practice. There are much better ones.

[idiot_stimpy]

Is space graspable?

[doc benway]

I'm saying trying to grasp the space between thoughts is a useless shamatha practice. There are much better ones.

I agree with that - no one suggested that we grasp the space between thoughts…

I used the word aiming at to imply the feeling of not being a captive of thought and the Zhangzhung Nyengyud used the words recognize and practice.

We are simply pointing at shamatha (zhiné).

If you don't like those words, that is your privilege.

I found them helpful in the beginning.

 

Until we develop skill at recognizing and stabilizing the mind, we are helplessly captives of thought.

In that condition, progress is hopeless.

It is important to recognize when we are not actively chasing the thoughts, that is an interval of presence, instantaneous awareness, knowledge, whatever you want to call it.

Aiming to develop recognition and stability in that space is valuable.

It is not a grasping, it is a letting go of the reins of thought and letting them run off into space without you.

 

 

Is space graspable?

Well said…

I do think that we can run into problems with grasping at desire but not space itself

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

The cognition is empty. That is what it means to recognize the nature of mind [sems nyid]. The clarity [cognition] of mind is recognized to be empty, which is sometimes parsed as the inseparability of clarity and emptiness, or nondual clarity

 

Hi Sun...

That statement seems backwards to me. It is not the clarity or cognizance of the mind that is empty, but that the mind is empty and cognizant (knowing). Is that what you were trying to say?

 

One is introduced to the empty quality. That which recognizes the empty quality is self-cognizant wakefulness. This uncontrived wakefulness is the knowing. Each individual has this potential. Your essence is empty and your nature is cognizant, in the same way that the nature of fire is hot. The essence of mind is empty, while its nature is capable of knowing; its nature is naturally cognizant. These two aspects are unified as empty cognizance. It is very important to comprehend this point. Otherwise we may think that the enlightened state is a thing we need to manufacture and achieve that maybe a teacher gives it to us, or perhaps we produce it through many years of practice. It is not like that. The heart of the matter is simply one of being either distracted or undistracted from knowing your present wakefulness. Distracted is a sentient being; undistracted is a buddha. Undistracted is recognizing the essence. There is no effort in the actual recognizing of the essence; it is effortless.

 

From As It Is, Volume II: 2 by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

 

I guess in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter, but another way to look at this is that the emptiness cognizes, not that cognitions are empty. See what I mean?

 

Edited March 21, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[asunthatneversets]

Hi Sun...

That statement seems backwards to me. It is not the clarity or cognizance of the mind that is empty, but that the mind is empty and cognizant (knowing). Is that what you were trying to say?

 

 

I guess in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter, but another way to look at this is that the emptiness cognizes, not that cognitions are empty. See what I mean?

 

 

Mind is clarity [cognizance] reified into a substantial reference point. The clarity aspect is the part that can be conditioned and as long as that conditioning is present then the illusion of an entity is present. In order to cut through that delusion, the emptiness of that substantiated reference point must be recognized, which is the non-arising [i.e. emptiness] of clarity. When that non-arising nature is directly recognized then the artificial reference point of mind collapses.

 

The mind is an illusion, so the mind cannot be empty and cognizant (knowing). The knowing [shes pa] and cognizance [gsal ba] are wrongly attributed to a 'mind'. However in truth there is no mind.

 

'Emptiness' is not a quality which can cognize or perform actions. Emptiness is simply the lack of inherency of that which is empty. So there is cognizance, and cognizance is empty. There is knowing, and knowing is empty. The trouble arises when these modalities are not recognized as empty, and are instead reified into substantial characteristics which belong to an established entity. Recognizing the emptiness of these faculties means it is realized that they are not truly existent modalities, they are nothing substantial, this knowledge is the doorway to liberation.

[Anderson]

The trouble arises when these modalities are not recognized as empty, and are instead reified into substantial characteristics which belong to an established entity. Recognizing the emptiness of these faculties means it is realized that they are not truly existent modalities, they are nothing substantial, this knowledge is the doorway to liberation.

 

 

The mere recognition that mind is non existent and the knowing is empty is not enough for eliciting liberation or conducive to liberation.

I myself have been toying with things that way by looking at the mind for years and seeing that there is nothing there , nothing to find and recognising that the thoughts and present experience is empty.But this only meant that i've contacted the empty side of my condition and not understood the total real meaning of my existence .Just seeing the emptiness of our mind and its content is after all a concept as explained to me by CNNR and one needs to go beyond any kind of concept of identifying this or that. This realisation can only come about when the total experience is realised as the potential of our condition which is not only the inseparability of emptiness and clarity but also continuous, uninterrupted.In fact understanding this continuity reveals the true meaning(the nature) and the totality of our vision as humans .

The nature of mind needs to be seen as continuity and not only the indivisibility of emptiness and clarity.

I consider this aspect of continuity or continuum very important

[asunthatneversets]

The mere recognition that mind is non existent and the knowing is empty is not enough for eliciting liberation or conducive to liberation.

I myself have been toying with things that way by looking at the mind for years and seeing that there is nothing there , nothing to find and recognising that the thoughts and present experience is empty.But this only meant that i've contacted the empty side of my condition and not understood the total real meaning of my existence .Just seeing the emptiness of our mind and its content is after all a concept as explained to me by CNNR and one needs to go beyond any kind of concept of identifying this or that. This realisation can only come about when the total experience is realised as the potential of our condition which is not only the inseparability of emptiness and clarity but also continuous, uninterrupted.In fact understanding this continuity reveals the true meaning(the nature) and the totality of our vision as humans .

The nature of mind needs to be seen as continuity and not only the indivisibility of emptiness and clarity.

I consider this aspect of continuity or continuum very important

 

The recognition that mind is non-arisen [sems nyid] is what reveals dharmatā, and resting in dharmatā is the path of liberation. So recognition of the nature of mind is precisely what elicits the process of liberation. The nature of mind is not something which is an inferential toying, you either recognize it or you don't, if you have recognized it then you know wisdom and familiarization with wisdom is the cause of liberation. If you have not recognized it, then avidyā is still in tact, and one must continue to practice any of the various methods which are provided to induce recognition.

 

Recognizing the nature of mind [sems nyid] is what separates ignorance from wisdom.

 

Padmasambhava states:

"If you are asked what the difference is between the mind of the truly perfected Buddha and the mind of sentient beings of the three realms, it is nothing other than the difference between realizing and not realizing the nature of mind. Since sentient beings fail to realize this nature, delusion occurs and from this ignorance the myriad types of sufferings come to pass. Thus beings roam through samsara. The basic material of buddhahood is in them, but they fail to recognize it."

 

The nature of mind is not a concept, it is the pacification of concepts. The collapse of ignorance and the afflictive structuring called 'mind'.

 

You are separating the 'empty side' of your condition from 'clarity' and 'continuity'... however this cannot be done. Your mind is already clarity, reified into a mind. You mistake your clarity as a substantiated reference point, this is why sentient beings are sentient beings, and this is the cause of suffering. Only when clarity is recognized to be empty i.e. non-arisen, is that reference point pacified.

 

In the context of the mind's nature, emptiness and clarity are non-dual, meaning; clarity is naturally unborn, unstructured, free of inherency, free of arising, abiding and cessation. The fact that clarity is primordially empty means that it never arose in the first place, and what has not arisen cannot cease, hence; the unceasing continuity of our unfabricated nature.

 

"Friends, I know of no other single thing, so quickly changing as this swift mind,

insofar as it is not easy to find just one other phenomena changing equally fast.

Shining bright, friends, is this mind, yet it is obstructed by external defilements.

Luminous absolutely, is that pure mind, when it is safely released and freed from

these alien impurities. Naturally Radiant is this mind, though it is soiled by these

accumulated foreign obscurations. This, the ordinary unlearned persons cannot

understand as it really is! I tell you, that is why uneducated ordinary persons

neither meditate nor develop mentally. Luminous is that mind, friends, when it is

purified & released from these fermented pollutions. This does the learned Noble

Disciple fully understand as it really is. I tell you, that is why that educated Noble

Disciple develops & improve mentally by training meditation..."

- Buddha Śākyamuni

 

('developing mentally' in this context is referencing integration with dharmatā)

Edited March 27, 2014 by asunthatneversets

[doc benway]

The mere recognition that mind is non existent and the knowing is empty is not enough for eliciting liberation or conducive to liberation.

I myself have been toying with things that way by looking at the mind for years and seeing that there is nothing there , nothing to find and recognising that the thoughts and present experience is empty.But this only meant that i've contacted the empty side of my condition and not understood the total real meaning of my existence .Just seeing the emptiness of our mind and its content is after all a concept as explained to me by CNNR and one needs to go beyond any kind of concept of identifying this or that. This realisation can only come about when the total experience is realised as the potential of our condition which is not only the inseparability of emptiness and clarity but also continuous, uninterrupted.In fact understanding this continuity reveals the true meaning(the nature) and the totality of our vision as humans .

The nature of mind needs to be seen as continuity and not only the indivisibility of emptiness and clarity.

I consider this aspect of continuity or continuum very important

[

And this is yet another concept...

 

The answer is not to be found in or by the mind.

 

The nature of mind simply needs to be left alone, as it is.

There is nothing to be done to it, or by it, it is nothing to be seen, or apprehended.

I do understand what you are saying about the value of recognizing, or more importantly, experiencing continuity through practice but that simply points to another relative characteristic, doesn't it?

[joeblast]

most random thought is habituated noise resultant from neural firings resonating through the many logical loop networks in the brain.

 

tame down the neural firings, directly quiet the mind.

 

how to tame neural firings, streamline breath, be quiet, etc, etc, all of the physical things that cause the cranial nerves to excite, stimulate.

 

12 thieves. show them how not to thieve and the water becomes placid.

[Tibetan_Ice]

[

And this is yet another concept...

 

The answer is not to be found in or by the mind.

 

The nature of mind simply needs to be left alone, as it is.

There is nothing to be done to it, or by it, it is nothing to be seen, or apprehended.

I do understand what you are saying about the value of recognizing, or more importantly, experiencing continuity through practice but that simply points to another relative characteristic, doesn't it?

Hi Steve

 

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche has an interesting perspective and teaching. He maintains that many short periods of recognizing the empty cognizant mind will eventually lead to enlightenment. short periods like two seconds long. And he says that continuity in that state is the key...

 

We usually get tied up in the web of past thought, future thought, thought of the present. Let go of those three. This is the vivid present wakefulness. Vivid here means transparent, wide-open, unobscuredlike crystal. To yearn for some extra superior state than this present wakefulness is simply fooling yourself. This uncorrected or unfabricated present wakefulness is the true Buddha Samantabhadra, which has never been apart from yourself for a single instant. While recognizing, rest naturally. If you recognize it, you are buddha; if not, you are a sentient being. Its very simple, very clear, like the dividing line between light and shadow. You cannot separate a lit area and a shaded area from each other, they are so close. It is like the front and back of your own hand. Buddhas and sentient beings are only that far from each other. (Rinpoche shows his hand). This is what it is in actuality: this is the front, this is the back. They may seem to be apart from each other, but actually they are very close. The way to be sure in this is to recognize. There is no thing to see whatsoever, is there? Recognizing mind essence is not to see anything other than that. Once you get to where you are not distracted from that throughout day and night, you have earned the name Buddha. If you can remain undistracted for one hour, you are already an arhat. If you are stable in that state there is nothing to fear about dying, because the bardo is only a continuity of this state.

...

 

In the moment of recognizing, you already see it. It is not that there is something extra there that needs to be recognized on top of seeing mind essence. It is as I said: when you point towards space, you touch space from the first instant. You dont have to extend your finger further in order to touch space. As beginners, we do forget mind essence. The way to remember again is by noticing that you have forgotten, by noticing distraction. Then you can remember to be undistracted. The teacher has explained the difference between distraction and nondistraction, right? Our job now is to notice when we are distracted.

 

...

 

The way to not lose the continuity is, in the moment of recognizing, not to do anything to it.

 

...

 

Uncontrived ordinary mind is the highway of the victorious ones.

 

...

 

If you have trained sufficiently to reach the complete recognition of rigpa and have some degree of stabilitysay, for twenty or thirty consecutive minutes, you will be successful in the bardo. There is no doubt about this, even though you havent attained the complete enlightenment of having fully exhausted delusion throughout day and night.

 

 

But you probably knew that already.

 

That quote is from his book called "As It Is vol 1".

 

He also says:

Try to imagine what its like when this moment of empty cognizance suffused with awareness starts to last for a full hour, unbroken. The very first moment of empty cognizance already has the potential for full omniscience, as well as the potential for compassion and loving kindnessthe potential ability to protect and help other beings, as well as to manifest the activity that functions for the welfare of all. All these qualities are present, but not fully manifest. The longer this duration lasts, the more the qualities become visible, actualized.

 

 

So, continuity is part of the equation.

 

TI

Edited March 28, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[asunthatneversets]

Hi Steve

 

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche has an interesting perspective and teaching. He maintains that many short periods of recognizing the empty cognizant mind will eventually lead to enlightenment. short periods like two seconds long. And he says that continuity in that state is the key...

 

But you probably knew that already.

 

That quote is from his book called "As It Is vol 1".

 

He also says:

So, continuity is part of the equation.

 

TI

You two are using continuity in two completely different ways.

 

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche is discussing resting in the continuity of dharmatā when flashes of prajñā shine forth. Short moments, many times, which is just about all the average practitioner is capable of anyway.

 

Anderson was talking about the compassion aspect of our nature, which is the dynamic and energetic continuity implied by the inseparability [dbyer med] of clarity and emptiness.

[Anderson]

 

The recognition that mind is non-arisen [sems nyid] is what reveals dharmatā, and resting in dharmatā is the path of liberation. So recognition of the nature of mind is precisely what elicits the process of liberation.

 

 

I am usually not for controversial statements but in this case i would say that there is no need for recognition.If i am not mistaken TUR has said once that there is no basis for non-recognition which in my opinion means that the real state always makes itself evident via clarity or the nature of this real state is none other than clarity.People in general are very distressed (as i was for a while) about not getting the meaning of recognition.I like CNNr's way of explaining it as discovery which in my opinion is subtly different from recognition. Discovery happens once we follow the instructions and after a continuous familiarization with the place of actual condition .This place of actual condition(dharmata) is arrived at in a similar way one arrives from A to B following a map.In our case if one follows the instructions of one's teacher one is led to that place even though one is not familiar at all with the goal of his journey.If one does exactly as one'e guide has instructed one definitely will arrive at the place indicated.He may not understand what presents itself in the place indicated but familiarity with it will elicit the meaning of it.Trust and RELIANCE on one's teacher instructions are of paramount importance.

 

Shri Singha asked once his teacher Manjushrimitra:

How should one practice according to the system of Dzogchen," he asked the Master.

Sri Manjusrimitra answered, "Without making the least effort, just be. That in itself is the optimal method for the Yogi who has grasped the View of Absolute-Totality.

 

This to me means that once the practitioner has understood intellectually the instructions of the teacher one follows them to the letter and when arrived at the place indicated one abandons any effort and just stays there .Staying there fulfils the scope of the view although initially one may not discern properly and entirely the implication and the full meaning of "just be".

 

 

The nature of mind is not something which is an inferential toying, you either recognize it or you don't, if you have recognized it then you know wisdom and familiar

zation with wisdom is the cause of liberation. If you have not recognized it, then avidyā is still in tact, and one must continue to practice any of the various methods which are provided to induce recognition.

Recognizing the nature of mind [sems nyid] is what separates ignorance from wisdom.

 

The nature of mind is not a concept, it is the pacification of concepts. The collapse of ignorance and the afflictive structuring called 'mind'.

 

 

What i wanted to point out was the fact of seeing "space" or "empty" is a concept.

 

 

You are separating the 'empty side' of your condition from 'clarity' and 'continuity'... however this cannot be done. Your mind is already clarity, reified into a mind. You mistake your clarity as a substantiated reference point, this is why sentient beings are sentient beings, and this is the cause of suffering. Only when clarity is recognized to be empty i.e. non-arisen, is that reference point pacified.

 

 

 

Separating cannot be done i agree but there is a continuity or something which continues , which is uninterrupted, the continuum of the base which is none other than the nature of the base which has the attributes of being empty and clear continuity which presents itself in the form of the energy of the base.The fact that there is something which continues is explained very well in "An introduction to contemplation".

 

Bellow rinpoche explains how continuous arising is the aspect of the basis called "nature":

 

And by way of an example, this voidness is said to be like the

fundamental purity and clarity of a mirror. A master may show the

disciple a mirror and explain how the mirror itself does not judge the

reflections arising in it to be either beautiful or ugly: the mirror is not

changed by whatever kind of reflection may arise, nor is its capacity to

reflect impaired. It is then explained that the void nature of the mind is

like.the nature of the mirror, pure, clear, and limpid, and that no matter

what arises, the void essence of the mind can never be lost, damaged, or

tarnished.

Although voidness in the sense explained above is the essential

underlying condition of all phenomena, phenomena-whether mental

events or `real' objects experienced as something external-continue to

manifest. Just as reflections, even though they are empty, keep appearing

in a mirror, things continue to exist and thoughts keep arising. This

continuous arising is the aspect of the Base that is called `Nature'. The

Nature of the Base is to manifest, and in order to illustrate this nature it is

compared to the capacity of a mirror to reflect all that is put in front of it.

The master may use a physical mirror in order to show that, no matter

whether what is reflected is good or bad, beautiful or ugly, the capacity

to reflect inherent to the mirror functions as soon as an object is put in

front of it. Then he will explain that the same happens with what is

termed `nature of mind', which is discovered in nondual contemplation.

Any thought or event may arise, but the nature of mind will not be

conditioned by it and will not enter into judgment: it will simply reflect

what arises, just as a mirror does, according to its own nature.

So the Zhi, the Base, the fundamental condition of the individual and

of existence, is in essence void, and yet its Nature is nevertheless to

manifest. How it manifests is as Energy, and by way of example, this

Energy is compared to the reflections that arise in a mirror. The master

may once again show a mirror to the disciple and explain how the

reflections that arise in it are the energy of the mirror's own inherent

nature manifesting visibly.

 

In the context of the mind's nature, emptiness and clarity are non-dual, meaning; clarity is naturally unborn, unstructured, free of inherency, free of arising, abiding and cessation. The fact that clarity is primordially empty means that it never arose in the first place, and what has not arisen cannot cease, hence; the unceasing continuity of our unfabricated nature.

 

Although everyone speaks of mind itself being unborn

and everyone embraces the idea that it is ineffable by nature

no one realizes that it is unborn.

Therefore, do not engage in any effort:

merely understand this transmission of the all creating monarch and

Abide without distraction in its meaning.

Do not train the mind with corrective measure

Do not fixate on objects.

Do not try to concentrate.

That in itself is the ultimate point, however things occur.

So engage in the ultimate meaning of me , the all creating -one.

K.G.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Anderson

[asunthatneversets]

 

I am usually not for controversial statements but in this case i would say that there is no need for recognition.If i am not mistaken TUR has said once that there is no basis for non-recognition which in my opinion means that the real state always makes itself evident via clarity or the nature of this real state is none other than clarity.People in general are very distressed (as i was for a while) about not getting the meaning of recognition.I like CNNr's way of explaining it as discovery which in my opinion is subtly different from recognition. Discovery happens once we follow the instructions and after a continuous familiarization with the place of actual condition .This place of actual condition(dharmata) is arrived at in a similar way one arrives from A to B following a map.In our case if one follows the instructions of one's teacher one is led to that place even though one is not familiar at all with the goal of his journey.If one does exactly as one'e guide has instructed one definitely will arrive at the place indicated.He may not understand what presents itself in the place indicated but familiarity with it will elicit the meaning of it.Trust and RELIANCE on one's teacher instructions are of paramount importance.

 

Shri Singha asked once his teacher Manjushrimitra:

How should one practice according to the system of Dzogchen," he asked the Master.

Sri Manjusrimitra answered, "Without making the least effort, just be. That in itself is the optimal method for the Yogi who has grasped the View of Absolute-Totality.

 

This to me means that once the practitioner has understood intellectually the instructions of the teacher one follows them to the letter and when arrived at the place indicated one abandons any effort and just stays there .Staying there fulfils the scope of the view although initially one may not discern properly and entirely the implication and the full meaning of "just be".

 

 

 

 

 

Separating cannot be done i agree but there is a continuity or something which continues , which is uninterrupted, the continuum of the base which is none other than the nature of the base which has the attributes of being empty and clear continuity which presents itself in the form of the energy of the base.The fact that there is something which continues is explained very well in "An introduction to contemplation".

 

Bellow rinpoche explains how continuous arising is the aspect of the basis called "nature":

 

And by way of an example, this voidness is said to be like the

fundamental purity and clarity of a mirror. A master may show the

disciple a mirror and explain how the mirror itself does not judge the

reflections arising in it to be either beautiful or ugly: the mirror is not

changed by whatever kind of reflection may arise, nor is its capacity to

reflect impaired. It is then explained that the void nature of the mind is

like.the nature of the mirror, pure, clear, and limpid, and that no matter

what arises, the void essence of the mind can never be lost, damaged, or

tarnished.

Although voidness in the sense explained above is the essential

underlying condition of all phenomena, phenomena-whether mental

events or `real' objects experienced as something external-continue to

manifest. Just as reflections, even though they are empty, keep appearing

in a mirror, things continue to exist and thoughts keep arising. This

continuous arising is the aspect of the Base that is called `Nature'. The

Nature of the Base is to manifest, and in order to illustrate this nature it is

compared to the capacity of a mirror to reflect all that is put in front of it.

The master may use a physical mirror in order to show that, no matter

whether what is reflected is good or bad, beautiful or ugly, the capacity

to reflect inherent to the mirror functions as soon as an object is put in

front of it. Then he will explain that the same happens with what is

termed `nature of mind', which is discovered in nondual contemplation.

Any thought or event may arise, but the nature of mind will not be

conditioned by it and will not enter into judgment: it will simply reflect

what arises, just as a mirror does, according to its own nature.

So the Zhi, the Base, the fundamental condition of the individual and

of existence, is in essence void, and yet its Nature is nevertheless to

manifest. How it manifests is as Energy, and by way of example, this

Energy is compared to the reflections that arise in a mirror. The master

may once again show a mirror to the disciple and explain how the

reflections that arise in it are the energy of the mirror's own inherent

nature manifesting visibly.

 

 

Although everyone speaks of mind itself being unborn

and everyone embraces the idea that it is ineffable by nature

no one realizes that it is unborn.

Therefore, do not engage in any effort:

merely understand this transmission of the all creating monarch and

Abide without distraction in its meaning.

Do not train the mind with corrective measure

Do not fixate on objects.

Do not try to concentrate.

That in itself is the ultimate point, however things occur.

So engage in the ultimate meaning of me , the all creating -one.

K.G.

 

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche's statement that there is no basis for non-recognition, if that is something he said, does not contradict the necessity of recognition. The entire praxis of Dzogchen, Mahamudra, etc., is predicated on recognition.

 

"But the difference between samsara and nirvana is simply a matter of of either recognizing or not recognizing. The very moment you recognize, there is nothing simpler than that. In the moment of seeing mind-essence [sems nyid], it is already recognized; there is nothing more that needs to be done. At that very moment it is not necessary to meditate even a speck. Shamatha needs to be meditated, cultivated. This emptiness does not posses an atom of anything to meditate on.

 

After recognizing, of course, we lose the continuity. We get distracted. Losing the continuity, becoming distracted, is itself the state of delusion. Meditating on buddha nature as if it were an object is the work of conceptual mind. This conceptual mind is exactly what keeps us spinning through samsara."

- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

 

"We need to recognize this, train in it and attain stability in the recognition. Recognizing is like the example of an infant who grows up into a twenty-five year old man. From infancy, the training is to recognize and continue recognizing until full mastery... The paths and levels toward enlightenment describe degrees of stability in recognition. We need to recognize empty cognizance - what this present moment of unmade wakefulness really is. Allow that to simply be as it is; let be in naturalness. That is the whole teaching in a nutshell. Having recognized this, train in it through uncontrived naturalness. Finally attain stability."

- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

 

"Mind [sems] and its essence [sems nyid] are not separate, just like the sun and its rays are not separate. Coemergent wisdom and coemergent ignorance are also as inseparable as fire and smoke. We have never been separate from this essence for even a moment. Our true nature is Samantabhadra - the nature pervading both samsara and nirvana. Even though it's always been present, this alone doesn't help, because it hasn't been recognized. We need to recognize it."

- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

 

So, as you can see Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche gives much credence to recognition, as he should.

 

Yes the nature [rang bzhin] of that state is naturally perfected clarity [lhun grub gsal ba], however the essence [ngo bo] is emptiness [stong pa nyid], and if you only have the clarity without the recognition of emptiness, then you simply have a mind [sems] with no insight into the nature of that mind [sems nyid].

 

As Tsoknyi Rinpoche states:

"Sometimes I say emptiness in the clarity and sometimes emptiness in the appearance. These mean exactly the same thing because emptiness is emptiness in each case and because the clarity part and the appearance part come down to the same meaning. Clarity is the knower and appearances are what it knows.

 

Now, when we do not know this emptiness and appearance we stay in duality and staying in duality we are confused. The definition of confusion is: 'Not directly seeing the actuality of things'."

 

Discovery and recognition are synonymous. You are recognizing the natural and uncontrived dharmatā which is your nature. Or you are discovering the actuality of mind and phenomena, their dharmatā. Same either way.

 

Also, the fact that recognition is first and foremost means that in the wake of that recognition, there is no doubt as to what one is seeking to revisit and familiarize with. That is why recognition is the first step.

 

"Meditation is not foremost, realization is foremost; If realization is not entered with confidence, the meditator is merely meditating on a conceptual state, the seeker is seeking with an afflicted clinging."

- kun tu bzang po che ba la rang gnas pa

 

"Just be" is a very dangerous notion to throw around which can easily be misinterpreted. It is true that in the instance of recognition you simply rest and allow the continuity of that insight to be natural. However that does not mean that one has arrived at the place indicated and can abandon effort. It simply means one has recognized mind-essence, and now the praxis is to integrate with that insight.

 

You also seem to be fixating on the nature [rang bzhin lhun grub] of the basis [gzhi], however again, the nature alone is not the basis. The basis is essence, nature and compassion. The aspect of continuity, or continuum, is the non-dual essence and nature. The nature alone is insufficient, and truly, the essence [ngo bo ka dag] is held to be the only definitive aspect of the basis according to the Dzogchen tantras.

 

The last excerpt from the kun byed rgyal po that you cite is referencing the view from the standpoint of dharmatā. If you interpret that statement as applying to your relative condition then you will be shooting yourself in the foot.

Edited March 30, 2014 by asunthatneversets