[Ish]

Well i suppose applying concentration of mind (shamatha) can make thoughts cease, which could be seen as an unnatural way to stop thoughts.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Ish

[GrandmasterP]

When one is well versed in the "natural state" do thoughts then naturally cease, or do they continue to arise and pass continuously?

 

I'd appreciate response from direct experience if possible

Thoughts continue.

Where else would they go?

However , over time; it becomes easier to observe those thoughts without becoming enmeshed in them and led astray from cultivation.

As someone else has posted on this excellent thread, that takes time.

Regular, disciplined cultivation is the key, sitting or cultivating at the same times for the same times each and every day.

Always and without ceasing.

There may indeed be sudden and blinding illumination, our Rinzai chums reckon that's the case.

But what happens the day or even the hour after that sudden illumination has happened?

Is one 'there' always and forever more?

I doubt it.

I'd say ( and they do) ' Continue cultivating'.

Suchness is what it is.

Edited May 4, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Jeff]

When one is well versed in the "natural state" do thoughts then naturally cease, or do they continue to arise and pass continuously?

 

I'd appreciate response from direct experience if possible

 

With "stabilization"bin the natural state, the mind is naturally quiet. Thoughts arise when there is something to do or a need to act, but it is all part of the flow.

 

Best wishes.

[Jeff]

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche:"The glimpse of recognizing mind-essence [sems nyid] that in the beginning lasted only for a few seconds gradually becomes half a minute, then a minute, then half an hour, then hours, until eventually it is uninterrupted throughout the whole day. You need that kind of training. I mention this because, if [you believe] the goal of the main training is to construct a state in which thoughts have subsided and which feels very clear and quiet, that is still a training in which a particular state is deliberately kept. Such a state is the outcome of a mental effort, a pursuit. Therefore it is neither the ultimate nor the original natural state. The naked essence of mind [sems nyid] is not known in śamatha, because the mind is occupied with abiding in stillness; it (mind essence) remains unseen. All one is doing is simply not following the movement of thought. But being deluded by thought movement is not the only delusion; one can also be deluded by abiding in quietude. The preoccupation with being clam blocks recognition of self-existing wakefulness and also blocks the knowing of the three kāyas of the awakened state. This calm is simply one of no thought, of the attention subsiding in itself while still not knowing itself."

 

Any "forced" calm is not the natural state. But, as one naturally "resides", issues and fears are dropped as they arise (spontaneously perfected) and the mind becomes naturally quiet. Residing in the present, there is no mind loop focus on the past or chasing of the future.

[doc benway]

When one is well versed in the "natural state" do thoughts then naturally cease, or do they continue to arise and pass continuously?

 

I'd appreciate response from direct experience if possible

 

I won't claim to be "well versed" in the natural state, although I do have a little experience and training.

 

Based on my (limited) experience, thoughts continue to arise and pass while resting in the Nature.

The difference is that as I become more stable resting in the Nature, the thoughts are seen to arise from nowhere, dwell in emptiness, and liberate spontaneously, without being a disturbance. Similarly, the "I" that is resting will periodically arise, dwell, and liberate, as do the other thoughts, while the clarity or knowing continues in that emptiness and spaciousness.

 

When not resting in the Nature, a thought comes and takes me with it. I become that thought and follow wherever it takes me for however long it has me in its grasp. Then as the thought lets me go, I return to 'myself' until the next takes me away.

 

When resting in the Nature, the thought arises, dwells for however long it will, then vanishes back to its essence and that essence is not felt to be any different from the 'me' that is abiding. Almost as if one feels that one is the ocean and the thoughts and feelings and impulses are simply waves and swells, manifestations certainly, but not other than the resting. And the clarity does not become focused, limited, or entangled by the thought.

 

Very tough to verbalize for me, and I hesitate to do so because I'm certainly not qualified to guide or teach anyone and dot want to mislead, but so far I can say that the thoughts continue to arise while I practice. All of my readings and instruction have also confirmed this to be the case with more advanced practitioners.

 

Please don't misunderstand my original post and subsequent comments and quotations. The Nature is NOT the gap between thoughts. The Nature is NOT the absence of thought (well it is, but that is only one manifestation). As CT points out, the Nature is that from/in which thought and non-thought, action and non-action manifest. It is not other and is never not the foundation.

The motivation behind this thread and these quotations is that I once mentioned this idea of finding that space or gap between thoughts as a tool to help us (beginners) enter into meditation. I received much criticism for it (some quite harsh and disrespectful) and so as I have continued to see great masters using this same tool in their teachings, I've been compelled to start and add such quotations to this thread.

 

I should probably just let the topic go as I really don't have any interest in persuading others to follow a teaching that they disagree with. On the other hand, I did (and do) feel quite vindicated to have found so much support from great masters and teachers for what was originally a simple technique that came to me quite naturally. I do think this is a valid and useful tool and I think the topic has generated some quality discussion.

 

Thanks to all who have contributed!

[LAOLONG]

the practice mast penetrate daily life

in the beginning it is hard

when you do the dishes concentrate on what you are doing don't think.

when walking don't day dream just walk,

and so on.

[Jetsun]

The issue isn't that it is too hard, it is that it is too simple.

 

The mind the ego wants something to do then it can claim the result as its own, as a victory or an achievement. Yet if you just allow everything to be as it is then everything unravels and is revealed.

[doc benway]

When one is well versed in the "natural state" do thoughts then naturally cease, or do they continue to arise and pass continuously?

 

I'd appreciate response from direct experience if possible

 

 

Can a thought unnaturally cease?

 

I'm confused by the definition.

 

I think what was implied referred more to spontaneous liberation vs suppression or thoughts.

 

 

Well i suppose applying concentration of mind (shamatha) can make thoughts cease, which could be seen as an unnatural way to stop thoughts.

 

I wouldn't call shamatha unnatural at all but it does seem to be a form of suppression. The point to Dzogchen practice, however, is to become skillful in permitting spontaneous liberation of thought as opposed to suppression or repression.

[C T]

In Dzogchen context, both shamatha and vipassana are methods (skilful means) for stabilizing recognition, nothing more. On a foundational level, the practitioner meditates, alternating between resting in spacious, pervasive awareness, and active generation of bodhicitta, directing the mind (thoughts) to certain bodhisattvic ideals. Short spurts of focus, then rest, and repeat, that is what masters encourage. In between the two, there is a kind of natural looseness happening all on its own, and over a long period of following this approach, this unconstructed looseness should ideally expand and over-shadow any contrived methods, thus enabling the practitioner to arrive naturally at great perfection where all efforts will have been left behind by then. No more meditation, no more distraction, a simultaneous union effected, resulting in natural great liberation.

 

If the practitioner keeps looking for that looseness, it will never be found. The funny thing is, if its not looked for, it can not be found too... so, there is work involved, but not too much, and certainly, not lying about doing nothing as well

 

In other traditions these methods are also considered skilful means. I dont believe the primary aim of applying said methods are for suppressing thoughts, although it may appear to contain elements of that at the beginning, as part of the application process.

Edited May 5, 2014 by C T

[asunthatneversets]

It is not short spurts of focus then rest and repeat. The "short spurts" are flashes of prajñā, which have nothing to do with focusing. Equipoise is resting in the view, when that view comes forth due to collapse of mind, in most cases it simply happens spontaneously. Masters usually say that since the real meditation is the view, you may sit for over an hour and only end up meditating for five seconds. Why five seconds? Because that is as long as the instance of vidyā [rig pa] may last for a beginner. Those five seconds end up being equipoise, and then post equipoise is essentially anything other than the view. Since equipoise involves no focus or effort, post equipoise is where the focusing or effort generally occurs.

Edited May 5, 2014 by asunthatneversets

[asunthatneversets]

Rigpa, being the essence of the union of space and clarity, can never not be whatever state you are in right now. In fact, Rigpa manifests even clearer in the midst of great confusion!

This is nothing the system ever says. If rigpa was always whatever state you are in at anytime, then the teachings would be extraneous and unnecessary. Vimalamitra was actually very clear when he said samsara cannot come from vidyā [rig pa], ergo vidyā is not manifesting in the midst of confusion. The only thing which manifests in the midst of confusion is confusion itself i. e. mind.

[asunthatneversets]

To see both confusion and calmness with equal taste, without chasing or rejecting one or the other, is dharmata itself. Those who think rigpa comes and goes, and seek to practice in the direction of stabilizing its presence, has work to do yet. Truth is, problem arises when 'you' think its no longer present.

If you are integrating with confusion then rigpa is not present.

 

Rigpa does come and go. That is the meaning of the path. The path is divided into equipoise and post-equipoise precisely due to fluctuation between mind and wisdom.

 

"Vidyā [rig pa] as it is explained on the path is still accompanied by impure influences of subtle energy and mind, leading to the distorted states of ordinary mind [sems] and mental events. Because one's recognition of vidyā is thus contaminated and burdened, one can truly rest in vidyā only from time to time."

- Jigme Lingpa

[C T]

It is not short spurts of focus then rest and repeat. The "short spurts" are flashes of prajñā, which have nothing to do with focusing. Equipoise is resting in the view, when that view comes forth due to collapse of mind, in most cases it simply happens spontaneously. Masters usually say that since the real meditation is the view, you may sit for over an hour and only end up meditating for five seconds. Why five seconds? Because that is as long as the instance of vidyā [rig pa] may last for a beginner. Those five seconds end up being equipoise, and then post equipoise is essentially anything other than the view. Since equipoise involves no focus or effort, post equipoise is where the focusing or effort generally occurs.

Sogyal Rinpoche, whom i trained under, never ascribed flashes of prajna as anything other than what they are.

 

The 'spurts' i mentioned are contrived visualizations used in the generation stage, to bring about stability. It has nothing to do with flashes of wisdom dawning as clarity.

 

Maybe you were thinking of something else altogether.

 

Not sure where you got that 5-second span from. Certainly, from my experience, it is not uniform like that.

[C T]

If you are integrating with confusion then rigpa is not present.

 

Rigpa does come and go. That is the meaning of the path. The path is divided into equipoise and post-equipoise precisely due to fluctuation between mind and wisdom.

 

"Vidyā [rig pa] as it is explained on the path is still accompanied by impure influences of subtle energy and mind, leading to the distorted states of ordinary mind [sems] and mental events. Because one's recognition of vidyā is thus contaminated and burdened, one can truly rest in vidyā only from time to time."

- Jigme Lingpa

Its a good thing my view differs somewhat. Imagine if everyone arrived at the same conclusion all the time in applying the teachings, that would make puppets of us all.

[Simple_Jack]

Its a good thing my view differs somewhat. Imagine if everyone arrived at the same conclusion all the time in applying the teachings, that would make puppets of us all.

 

Or that would mean the instructions for practice have reproducible outcomes that have been passed down and duplicated through the generations.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[C T]

Or that would mean the instructions for practice have reproducible outcomes that have been passed down and duplicated through the generations.

Does 'reproducible outcomes' imply rigid, facsimile and constantly imitative experiences all the time, every time? I would hope not, for the sake of progress.

[joeblast]

Does 'reproducible outcomes' imply rigid, facsimile and constantly imitative experiences all the time, every time? I would hope not, for the sake of progress.

made me think of taomeow's statement about how a musical performance can never be a forgery, because it is performance in action. how many snowflakes are the same, though they have the same prescription for manifestation?

[asunthatneversets]

Sogyal Rinpoche, whom i trained under, never ascribed flashes of prajna as anything other than what they are.

 

The 'spurts' i mentioned are contrived visualizations used in the generation stage, to bring about stability. It has nothing to do with flashes of wisdom dawning as clarity.

 

Maybe you were thinking of something else altogether.

 

Not sure where you got that 5-second span from. Certainly, from my experience, it is not uniform like that.

Ah I didn't realize you were describing mahāyoga practices.

 

Five seconds is an approximate example, could be one second, could be twenty, or it may not appear at all during a practice session. It may flash forth later in the day during other activities. It is anything but uniform.

[asunthatneversets]

 

Its a good thing my view differs somewhat. Imagine if everyone arrived at the same conclusion all the time in applying the teachings, that would make puppets of us all.

Yes mahāyoga (generation stage) does differ from what is considered atiyoga proper. Both are good and neither is better than the other, it is whatever works for the practitioner. Edited May 5, 2014 by asunthatneversets

[Simple_Jack]

Does 'reproducible outcomes' imply rigid, facsimile and constantly imitative experiences all the time, every time? I would hope not, for the sake of progress.

 

Define 'progress'.

[Simple_Jack]

Does 'reproducible outcomes' imply rigid, facsimile and constantly imitative experiences all the time, every time? I would hope not, for the sake of progress.

 

No, but it would be preposterous for the average Dzogchenpa to consider distinguishing confusion and wisdom as extraneous.

 

To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided. ~ Longchenpa

[C T]

No, but it would be preposterous for the average Dzogchenpa to consider distinguishing confusion and wisdom as extraneous.

 

To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided. ~ Longchenpa

Well, that is the problem... the average Dzogchenpa often gets caught by being unable to taste the sameness of both, seeing past the fleeting displays and possible subtle traps to arrive at evenness.

[C T]

Define 'progress'.

Simply put... ungraspable, yet ever-present potential.

[asunthatneversets]

Well, that is the problem... the average Dzogchenpa often gets caught by being unable to taste the sameness of both, seeing past the fleeting displays and possible subtle traps to arrive at evenness.

There is no sameness of confusion and wisdom. As Samantabhadra states, paraphrased; though my paths are countless in number, they can be summed up into two: vidyā and avidyā. What that statement is conveying is that there is a single basis and two paths. If you are ignorant of the basis, which is simply your nature, then you wander in samsara as a sentient being. If on the other hand you recognize your nature, then that is the path of liberation and wisdom.

 

Confusion and wisdom are never the same though. It may be true that from the perspective of vidyā, confusion dawns as wisdom, but that does not mean confusion is wisdom. It simply means vidyā is able to accurately cognize appearances which were once cognized afflictively.

 

"The essence of mind is an obscuration to be given up. The essence of vidyā is a wisdom to be attained."

-- Longchenpa

Edited May 5, 2014 by asunthatneversets

[C T]

There is no sameness of confusion and wisdom. As Samantabhadra states, paraphrased; though my paths are countless in number, they can be summed up into two: vidyā and avidyā. What that statement is conveying is that there is a single basis and two paths. If you are ignorant of the basis, which is simply your nature, then you wander in samsara as a sentient being. If on the other hand you recognize your nature, then that is the path of liberation and wisdom.

 

Confusion and wisdom are never the same though. It may be true that from the perspective of vidyā, confusion dawns as wisdom, but that does not mean confusion is wisdom. It simply means vidyā is able to accurately cognize appearances which were once cognized afflictively.

 

"The essence of mind is an obscuration to be given up. The essence of vidyā is a wisdom to be attained."

-- Longchenpa

Due to the ripening of karma, we cannot know or distinguish when confusion can suddenly dawn as wisdom, and vice versa.

 

This process, a continuum, will persist until full realization that there is fundamentally no such thing as Bodhi. As Buddha himself said, enlightenment comes into existence hand in hand with samsaric ignorance, and will persist no longer than the existence of same.

 

With the cessation of ignorance, both wisdom and mind extinguish simultaneously ~ at that point, the conceptual self and its associated dualistic tendencies evaporate like dew in the morning sun. Analogous to this, we can ask ourselves, With the next evening's appearance of dew... can we say its a different kind of dew to that formed previously? Can we say its the same? We cannot. So, in the same way, we are not to discern with certainty the presence or absence of one or the other, except while engaged in establishing contrived equipoise (with the aim of attaining uncontrived equipoise eventually).

 

Therefore, in essence, they (wisdom and ignorance) are neither the same nor different, since both vidya and avidya do not inherently exist in the context of there being a static, inherently existing human form to experience one or the other. Yet, at the same time, vidya/avidya cannot not exist, ultimately, on the basis of the transiency and ephemeral nature of both existence and non-existence occurring simultaneously. On this note, we are going to be caught if we are to form notions, on an ultimate level, about any distinguishing facets that can be pointed out as vidya or avidya. Conventionally, yes, but ultimately, no. It is not possible to distinguish vidya without also pointing out avidya. The aim of Great Perfection is to go beyond both.