The Spirit of a Martial Art

[Nungali]

My Master (7^th Dan Black Belt in Traditional Taekwon-do, Certified Muay Thai Professional Trainer-Kru, Brown Belt in Brazilian Jujitsu, MMA Instructor, and original student under Choi Hong Hi – founder of Traditional TKD, and one of the few legitimate Martial Arts Masters) makes a sharp distinction. He will unapologeticly say before a group of mixed students that a MMA fighter is a Technical Brawler (his choice of words), while a Taekwon-do student is a Martial Artist.

 

I agree . When one is fighting ... for real, especially outside the ring, in a self-defence situation, and more especially when ones home /family is threatened ... 'arts' go out the window.

 

This is evident in arts like Karate on a small scale. In competition, kata is performed as an art, when it gets into kumite, technique is not performed as an art and can be executed totally different (but who cares .... you got a win for the club! )

 

To be really popular 'with the club' ... score with an unrealistic, but in perfectly executed form, technique. I saw a guy get a standing ovation from this ... and it was just an evasion .... but you dont get a point for that

 

Many moons ago (many) , in one of the old style mainstream clubs, I won a kumite comp by precise execution of technique ... my opponent wasn't being scored on his techniques as they were not being executed to standard ( even so and I am glad non-connected - regardless of imprecision ... I probably would have been knocked out ). Okay, thats all fine ... it was a Martial ART ... the problem is, its also marketed as self defence .... oh dear !

 

MSSR is a self-defence style ... some people I have trained with dont like it as they say it is 'too violent' and we 'fight dirty'.

[Seph]

There are dojo's and you can watch matches. Its particularly interesting to watch black belt and higher testing done, and in my experience, those movies are not what higher level people do when sparring or fighting. You won't see it in the MMA which needs to be streamlined and effective and you don't see sequences like those in real Kung Fu dojo's unless they're actively choreographed. imo

Yes, you are bang on correct.

I hold a black belt in Taekwon-do and have competed (judged and refereed) tournaments.

You don't see those super-awesome choreographed moves.

"Live" sparring simply doesn't work like that.

 

 

Another interesting point many people miss (like some of these movie sample videos).

Every try fighting/sparring for 4-5 minutes? Most people won't/can't last. It's exhausting.

Edited February 16, 2014 by Seph

[Seph]

I agree . When one is fighting ... for real, especially outside the ring, in a self-defence situation, and more especially when ones home /family is threatened ... 'arts' go out the window.

 

This is evident in arts like Karate on a small scale. In competition, kata is performed as an art, when it gets into kumite, technique is not performed as an art and can be executed totally different (but who cares .... you got a win for the club! )

 

To be really popular 'with the club' ... score with an unrealistic, but in perfectly executed form, technique. I saw a guy get a standing ovation from this ... and it was just an evasion .... but you dont get a point for that

 

Many moons ago (many) , in one of the old style mainstream clubs, I won a kumite comp by precise execution of technique ... my opponent wasn't being scored on his techniques as they were not being executed to standard ( even so and I am glad non-connected - regardless of imprecision ... I probably would have been knocked out ). Okay, thats all fine ... it was a Martial ART ... the problem is, its also marketed as self defence .... oh dear !

 

MSSR is a self-defence style ... some people I have trained with dont like it as they say it is 'too violent' and we 'fight dirty'.

We tend to thing of the more violent or action based Martial Arts.

What about T'ai Chi (yes, yes, I know. It also has a move violent self-defense/combat aspects of it too) and Qigong?

 

Overall, I am still not convinced Martial Arts were originally created for war exclusively.

[chegg]

HUH! ? Why ?

 

Anyway .... a couple of questions about your post (although I cant for the life of me 'get it' or how it relates to what I wrote - or why what I wrote reminds you of the 'baddest fight scene ever' )

 

1. Do they always use the same guys voice for that 'evil laugh' ... I have been practicing it and thinking of using it at training next week.

 

2. Where do I get those stick on eyebrows and beard (they must be popular because so many people use them).

 

It doesn't really relate to what you wrote but I had a lot of fun watching that old film clip Too much spiritual energy in the left hand and all that.

 

ps. I let my kids watch it now they think they can burn me by stabbing their fingers into my chest.

 

 

......

Edited February 16, 2014 by chegg

[Nungali]

Just on the level of karate , here are some stages and processes , that impinged on its 'spit'. (I am talking about Karate ... not Japanese 'Martial Arts' ... (note , also of interest, the concept 'Art of War'. )

 

1. It was a specific system that was in Okinawa.

 

2. It first was introduced into Japan as a physical education system for primary school students (so modifications; no ripping out testicles, eye or throat attacks , etc, etc.)

 

3. Okinawa virtually devastated at the end of WWII - aside from many masters being killed, the main stream of 'arts' survival was via US soldiers learning the 'arts' (I dont think it takes much imagination to figure what would have been taught to the guys that wiped out Okinawans country and relatives and then asked to be taught their secret fighting techniques - in many cases it was get money from teaching or have a starving family - but still, can you imagine these people teaching the Americans anything but basics and impressive show?

 

4. It then became further modified towards an art or 'peaceful spiritual practice' to appease the new political masters. A classic example of this is the attitude and focus of pre-war Aikido and post-war Aikido ... VERY different concepts (including the new 'translation' of terms ... after the war, the purpose of Aikido became 'love' ... it certainly WASNT when they thought they were going to win!

 

5. It was then turned into a sport ... with all sorts of restrictions that changed things ( eg. no kicking the nuts ... really? Okay then, I am going to come in with an insane unsafe roundhouse kick to the head as I dont even have to worry about protecting my undercarriage - plus the gym floor is nice and flat and uneven ( I have had guys want to move 'to a flat bit' for outside training / )

 

So, with Karate, I feel THAT particular martial art, has had a wide range of things which changed its 'spirit'.

[Nungali]

no ppl dont learn martial arts to learn to kill! at least i hope not! what im saying is why martial arts was created in the first place. in our society we dont need to kill to defend ourselves as they did in old times. because you dont have to be a good person to be good at martial arts, refinement of charachter dosent matter. some powerfull fighers were evil men who definantly abused their power and killed people mercilessly.

 

Yes! " Everything we do is 'sword play' ... there is no more 'sword fighting' and it will remain play ... until people start walking around with real swords and fighting to the death again." - fencing instructor's answer when asked why he referred to what we were learning as 'sword play'.

[Taomeow]

The ability to maim and kill comes rather early in the acquisition of a martial art. Control over your ability is a more refined skill. When I used to do TKD, I heard from several practitioners how they hurt an opponent (in RL fights) more than they intended to, and in one case, had to face legal complications on top of remorse, even though that unfortunate knee was smashed in self-defense.

 

Taijiquan taught correctly, i.e. with a very strong fighting focus (the way my teacher teaches it unless the students explicitly don't want to know how a gracious move can be used lethally -- in which case they will never have full control, since lethality is an aspect of the move's full range, and control of its full range implies knowing this part... you can't control what you are not aware of) -- so, TJQ emphasizes this control to the greatest extent, to the depth of your marrow, to the core of your values. YOU decide how you will use it. A master will use it to exactly match the situation, not more, not less. A time to heal and a time to kill, so to speak.

 

Interestingly, I used to know a taoist nun who stopped healing people after she healed someone's broken leg and, a couple of months later, witnessed him kick a homeless person with that very leg. So, there's no absolutes, healing can hurt and killing can heal, mastery is in discerning the imperatives of the moment and having full control over one's full range of faculties.

 

In this regard, I don't see how a form will fly out the window in a real-life situation -- I think it's the opposite, it will shine when tested against the very circumstances it was created to control and handle to begin with... provided the form itself is real and perfect to begin with. You can't improve on perfection. If you can't use your MA in real life and need to invent something else on the go, look for a different teacher...

[Nungali]

Yes, you are bang on correct.

I hold a black belt in Taekwon-do and have competed (judged and refereed) tournaments.

You don't see those super-awesome choreographed moves.

"Live" sparring simply doesn't work like that.

 

 

Another interesting point many people miss (like some of these movie sample videos).

Every try fighting/sparring for 4-5 minutes? Most people won't/can't last. It's exhausting.

 

yes .... people! Its a movie!

 

The idea is to make it soo 'good' you forget its a movie

 

[Watching some type of 'How I survived being stranded in the wilderness' type of show. Friend who is watching it with me ; " Wow! It must be so hard doing what that guy is doing out there alone and so isolated.'

 

Me: "Yeah ... just him and film crew."

 

I have worked on (not in ) movies including one's with martial arts scenes ... when you get to see it from that side .... all the ropes, pulleys, support crews , stunties, cut and re-take over and over and over and over again ...

[Nungali]

It doesn't really relate to what you wrote but I had a lot of fun watching that old film clip Too much spiritual energy in the left hand and all that.

 

ps. I let my kids watch it now they think they can burn me by stabbing their fingers into my chest.

 

 

......

Okay then

 

tell the kids it wont work unless accompanied by that evil laugh

[ChiDragon]

some of the most powerfull warlords were the most ruthless! Ghengis khan, shaka zulu, Emperor Qin, alexander the great! all warlords and conquerors that understood battle,fighting,war and what it was all about! now philosophy is somthing else entirely!

 

Yeah! All of them were tried to rule the world by brutal force but didn't last too long. It was because they didn't know the philosophy behind the Art of War.

Edited February 16, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Nungali]

The ability to maim and kill comes rather early in the acquisition of a martial art. Control over your ability is a more refined skill. When I used to do TKD, I heard from several practitioners how they hurt an opponent (in RL fights) more than they intended to, and in one case, had to face legal complications on top of remorse, even though that unfortunate knee was smashed in self-defense.

 

Taijiquan taught correctly, i.e. with a very strong fighting focus (the way my teacher teaches it unless the students explicitly don't want to know how a gracious move can be used lethally -- in which case they will never have full control, since lethality is an aspect of the move's full range, and control of its full range implies knowing this part... you can't control what you are not aware of) -- so, TJQ emphasizes this control to the greatest extent, to the depth of your marrow, to the core of your values. YOU decide how you will use it. A master will use it to exactly match the situation, not more, not less. A time to heal and a time to kill, so to speak.

 

Interestingly, I used to know a taoist nun who stopped healing people after she healed someone's broken leg and, a couple of months later, witnessed him kick a homeless person with that very leg. So, there's no absolutes, healing can hurt and killing can heal, mastery is in discerning the imperatives of the moment and having full control over one's full range of faculties.

 

In this regard, I don't see how a form will fly out the window in a real-life situation -- I think it's the opposite, it will shine when tested against the very circumstances it was created to control and handle to begin with... provided the form itself is real and perfect to begin with. You can't improve on perfection. If you can't use your MA in real life and need to invent something else on the go, look for a different teacher...

 

Yes, that is a good point .... points . Thing is .... I'm no expert. Although I was surprised how much control one CAN develop ... even with a lummox like me .

 

One particular fencing instructor admonished me for my lack of focus ( my bokkan blade touched his arm ! - which was acceptable in my other style ... just a little tap to the body ... or drawing the 'blade' across the body, touching it, instead of a slash ). He asked me to attack and executed the same technique back on me ... we both froze at point of contact ... his sword was touching the hairs on my arm , but not the skin .. another time during a rolling tumble and 'ground squabble' my training partner went through the whole unrehearsed , play it out as it happened, situation with the point of a tanto (wooden) at my throat ... it never touched me during the whole movement, but could have any moment ... very impressive IMO.

 

Perhaps the whole spirit of martial arts is control ?

[MERCELESS ONE]

Do you know why we practice board-breaking in Martial Arts?

Because only (approx.) 50% power is to be used in sparring.

To know and to practice 100% power is board-breaking.

Not on a fellow human-being.

my martial up bringing was different from the traditional! i started off hitting wood, so breaking it and bones were easy for me. my sifu wrapped a log with leather for our punching bag. at the height of my practice before i joined the military i could lay into a tree or light pole full force with flurries of punches for a full practice session. i have always been taught to restrain from using full force while sparring. most of my opponents i couldnt go full force with even if i wanted to.

[Nungali]

I have always wondered how a 'full contact' competition works ???

[MERCELESS ONE]

Who could perform like that? Anyone I guess. Its a movie, its choreographed. Probably any professional dancer, male, female, child could get those moves down and act it out. Real fights don't look like those. That was good action choreography for a film, but those moves shouldn't be taken seriously. The whole I'll run up wall, spin, get behind sequence is best left to the Jedi. As is taking dozens of hard punches to the head, shrugging them off and not breathing hard or slowing down.

 

There are dojo's and you can watch matches. Its particularly interesting to watch black belt and higher testing done, and in my experience, those movies are not what higher level people do when sparring or fighting. You won't see it in the MMA which needs to be streamlined and effective and you don't see sequences like those in real Kung Fu dojo's unless they're actively choreographed. imo

lol i know those arent real fight scenes ive been fighting half my life and they never go like that at all. ive been on the mat and in the ring enough to know. my point is to show the brutality in which the true essence of martial arts is deployed in battle, but i know thats not completly accurate. its just not many know what martial arts is truly meant to be used for.

[Nungali]

How much has it changed in the ring since the 50's ;

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVheNCVfUfE

[Nungali]

Oh dear!

 

[MERCELESS ONE]

How much has it changed in the ring since the 50's ;

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVheNCVfUfE

LMFAO!! i showed this to my sifu and he laughed and said they couldnt be real masters, he refused to believe that they were called masters LOL

[ChiDragon]

Here is a better video quality.

This fight was not legal in Hong Kong. Therefore, it has to be arranged to fight in Macau. The fight starts at 4:4o Edited February 16, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Nungali]

LMFAO!! i showed this to my sifu and he laughed and said they couldnt be real masters, he refused to believe that they were called masters LOL

They were in the 'pop culture' of that time ... as far as I remember, from a doco I saw about that fight. The reason it was illegal in Hong Kong was all the hype that was built up before it ... a very publicly aware event of 'two masters' fighting and sorting out the 'kung fu / tai chi debate' .

 

When I first saw this years ago I was mystified ... WTF ... at some of the 'techniques' ( @ 5:22 - 'kick the fleeing arse' ).

 

There is a lot of references to this being 'a real fight' ... and of course LOTS of related comments

 

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=1953+kung+fu+tai+chi+fight+at+Maccau&oq=1953+kung+fu+tai+chi+fight+at+Maccau&aqs=chrome..69i57.16461j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

 

But cant find any definitive articles about it now ... its supposed to be " Ng Style Tai Chi Master Ng Gong Yee and White Crane Ryu Kung Fu Master Chun Huck Fu "

Edited February 16, 2014 by Nungali

[Taomeow]

Yes, that is a good point .... points . Thing is .... I'm no expert. Although I was surprised how much control one CAN develop ... even with a lummox like me .

 

One particular fencing instructor admonished me for my lack of focus ( my bokkan blade touched his arm ! - which was acceptable in my other style ... just a little tap to the body ... or drawing the 'blade' across the body, touching it, instead of a slash ). He asked me to attack and executed the same technique back on me ... we both froze at point of contact ... his sword was touching the hairs on my arm , but not the skin .. another time during a rolling tumble and 'ground squabble' my training partner went through the whole unrehearsed , play it out as it happened, situation with the point of a tanto (wooden) at my throat ... it never touched me during the whole movement, but could have any moment ... very impressive IMO.

 

Perhaps the whole spirit of martial arts is control ?

 

In any event this is the word I hear from my teacher every week.

 

[ChiDragon]

Quan Yu was classified as a Lord of Martial Art and also a scholar and a gentleman. Please note that his attire, the sleeve at the right hand side indicates that he is a martial artist and the left indicates that he is scholar. He does not kill someone ruthlessly. He only kill those who are evil. That is why people worship him and place his statue in the living room by the door to keep the evil spirits away.

[Seph]

I have always wondered how a 'full contact' competition works ???

Seriously?

 

It is exactly as it's called. Full contact.

Not 50% power, but 100% power. (MMA basically, or Pro-Taekwon-do).

Although there is a points-system, Knock-outs and TKO's are in and sure-fire ways to win.

 

With Traditional TKD tournament rules, there is only 50% power, where a knock-out, TKO, or even drawing blood is an instant disqualification. It is absolutely a point-based system. (Skill and technique count. Brute strength, not so much). The ref. is in a position where, should he feel the need, penalties can be called for excessive force.

 

 

~~

 

Next important question:

What is 100% power?

 

Power is not how strong you are.

I would argue that "power" is composed of 5 elements. Only together to they form one's "power"

1. physical strength
2. accuracy.
3. technique
4. speed
5. belief.

I don't believe any one of these elements are more important than any other. If I was forced to pick one, it would have to be the last one: belief.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Seph

[Taomeow]

I have always wondered how a 'full contact' competition works ???

 

In training it's pretty traumatic, that's how it works.

 

My exposure to the realities of hard MA was thank god limited to a near-fractured knuckle since my TKD stint was brief. For full contact people wore protective gear. It didn't protect the emotions though, so this one young woman, who was perhaps the most talented student in no-contact situations, would break down and start crying when she was hit, not from physical pain as she explained, but from... well, she would resume crying at this point so I never learned why. As for me, I figured that my best bet is evasive maneuvers, not hurting the opponent, not getting hurt myself. The teacher used to pitch me against a 300 lb Korean guy, who could just swat me if he ever managed to lay a punch or a kick on me. He never did, I was at least twice as fast, and used that. From the spontaneous idea of "not hurting the opponent, not getting hurt myself," the shortcut to switching to taiji was, well, short.

[Nungali]

Seriously?

 

It is exactly as it's called. Full contact.

Not 50% power, but 100% power. (MMA basically, or Pro-Taekwon-do).

 

Yeah, seriously .... as I never went in one ... nor would I ... I had enough injuries from 'no contact'. I have seen some MMA where someone is on top of someone and just viciously pounds into their head ... and a few times when a standing punch has been delivered full power for a knockout, karate 'full-contact' comp - but no head attacks allowed .

 

I mean, surely there is a restriction on techniques ... ? Or is it just go in full steam with anything and if the other is permanently creamed or dies .... shrug ? I guess there MUST be restrictictions on techniques and the ones allowed can be full contact ?

[Seph]

In training it's pretty traumatic, that's how it works.

 

My exposure to the realities of hard MA was thank god limited to a near-fractured knuckle since my TKD stint was brief. For full contact people wore protective gear. It didn't protect the emotions though, so this one young woman, who was perhaps the most talented student in no-contact situations, would break down and start crying when she was hit, not from physical pain as she explained, but from... well, she would resume crying at this point so I never learned why. As for me, I figured that my best bet is evasive maneuvers, not hurting the opponent, not getting hurt myself. The teacher used to pitch me against a 300 lb Korean guy, who could just swat me if he ever managed to lay a punch or a kick on me. He never did, I was at least twice as fast, and used that. From the spontaneous idea of "not hurting the opponent, not getting hurt myself," the shortcut to switching to taiji was, well, short.

I've had times when a MMA class was going on next to our class. On occasion they were odd numbers.

There was a few times I had to spar with a 300 lbs. MMA (ex-football player). It was a hoot!

Although he couldn't hit me, there was little I could do to him. The only way I could delivery a hit hard enough to catch his attention was some sort of spinning kick, spinning back-hand strike, etc. And even then...!!

He'd just absorb it.

Ouch!