Does Anyone Have Power?

[Nungali]

Cool, I keep my eyes out for it ... I edited above

[Marblehead]

Cool, I keep my eyes out for it ... I edited above

I changed the title of "Marble Gardens" to read "Marble Gardens and Fish Ponds" I couldn't find the thread where I talked about the fish.

[Charles Crawford III]

correct me if I am wrong but wasn't this with the aid of a negative ion generator?

Yes, I use a negative ion generator:

 

 

 

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/030/1/2/negative_ion_generator_1_by_charlescrawfordiii-d74fky3.jpg

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/030/6/5/negative_ion_generator_5_by_charlescrawfordiii-d74fjsi.jpg

 

 

Did Torus abandon his own post?

 

P.S. You got the right idea Thunder_Gooch. Keep posting those videos as evidence. I will try to get you more proof of real Qi users. In 10 years everyone will know Qi is real.

[Charles Crawford III]

You're new around here aren't you? We have FAR more than 15 pages discussing powers.... lol

I guess I am new around here. What other posts are just about powers, other than this one and this?: http://thetaobums.com/topic/31769-does-anyone-have-magical-mystical-abnormal-or-otherwise-powers/

[Marblehead]

In 10 years everyone will know Qi is real.

I already know it is.

[Ya Mu]

... I will try to get you more proof of real Qi users. In 10 years everyone will know Qi is real.

I am wondering your plans of accomplishing this 10 year period for everyone to know qi is real. Many people can see and feel direct evidence but still not think it real, so your work is cut out for you. I had hoped your statement would become true 30 years ago, then 20, then 10, then now; yet you still see people on a grand scale demonstrating ignorance of the Chinese Taoist & Buddhist arts. Especially where medical qigong wai qi liao fa is concerned as comparatively very few have actually studied it. Yes,for sure you certainly have a lot of work to do.

[Aeran]

P.S. You got the right idea Thunder_Gooch. Keep posting those videos as evidence. I will try to get you more proof of real Qi users. In 10 years everyone will know Qi is real.

 

People have been saying that since the 19th century

 

I was reading a book from the 1920's about bioenergy the other day, talking about how scientific acceptance is 'just around the corner!'

 

Honestly I think that short of some John Chang type volunteering to be a lab rat, nothing is going to bring about acceptance of the spiritual nature of reality except for the growth and maturation of humanity as a civilization. There's already a ton of objective, scientific evidence out there, and this stuff is easier than ever to personally experience thanks to the internet, if people don't believe in it, either they don't want to believe in it or they're incapable of shaking off the dogma of materialist reductionism long enough to consider it properly. Hell, I used to be one of those people, so I know what it's like, and for someone in that situation, the only way to change it is to forcefully shove it in their face until they can't deny it any longer - which might prove problematic with the entirety of the human species.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Aeran

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

 

There's already a ton of objective, scientific evidence out there, and this stuff is easier than ever to personally experience thanks to the internet, if people don't believe in it, either they don't want to believe in it or they're incapable of shaking off the dogma of materialist reductionism long enough to consider it properly.

 

You think I should shove it in their faces?

 

Like a cream pie.

 

But I ain't no guinea pig, I'm an ascended hamster.

...

Edited February 20, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[SonOfTheGods]

 

Honestly I think that short of some John Chang type volunteering to be a lab rat,

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/33714-what-would-you-ask-a-master/?p=523561

I WROTE:

 

Do you have any "financial backers"?

 

For instance, you want to "bridge the gap"- how?

 

Testing- what types?

 

Let's say- you found someone who has genuine "abilities"

 

To first prove to the (western) science world- that such "powers/siddhis" exist- precision testing needs to be approved/applicable"

 

What sort of testing do you recommend, per your tech. background--?

 

Do you have sponsors who would financially back you- to perform these tests?

 

If you answer yes, and do not want to be chasing your tail looking for a legit person who can demonstrate these abilities under intense scientific scrutiny- Private Message Me.

 

I got someone for you.

 

No money and/or time wasted.

 

Let's do this.

 

No bullshit

 

 

Lots of talk on forums about masters, teachers, etc..

 

No one ever steps up to the challenge

 

I HAVE.

 

I'm not talking lame videos of moving stuff with qi/whateverscamoftheweek

 

That proves nothing but who is better at faking stuff

 

I WANT REAL SCIENTIFIC TESTING

 

LET'S DO IT

Edited February 20, 2014 by SonOfTheGods

[adept]

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/33714-what-would-you-ask-a-master/?p=523561

I WROTE:

 

Lots of talk on forums about masters, teachers, etc..

 

No one ever steps up to the challenge

 

I HAVE.

 

I'm not talking lame videos of moving stuff with qi/whateverscamoftheweek

 

That proves nothing but who is better at faking stuff

 

I WANT REAL SCIENTIFIC TESTING

 

LET'S DO IT

Some things just aren't measurable by mainstream science and I, for one would like to keep it that way. Questions will remain unanswerable. It is this constant questioning of the unknown which keeps us flexible and pliable.

If we knew all the answers to life's great mysteries, the universe would be a very stale and stagnant place.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

I WANT REAL SCIENTIFIC TESTING

LET'S DO IT

 

With a purposeful grimace and a terrible sound,
He pulls the spitting high-tension wires down.

 

Go go Godzilla!

...

Edited February 20, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[Green Tiger]

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/33714-what-would-you-ask-a-master/?p=523561

I WROTE:

 

Lots of talk on forums about masters, teachers, etc..

 

No one ever steps up to the challenge

 

I HAVE.

 

I'm not talking lame videos of moving stuff with qi/whateverscamoftheweek

 

That proves nothing but who is better at faking stuff

 

I WANT REAL SCIENTIFIC TESTING

 

LET'S DO IT

 

What sort of test do you have in mind?

[SonOfTheGods]

What sort of test do you have in mind?

science has many various machines/monitors/detectors/meters that can monitor, detect, etc all types of energy

 

hell, they can tweak-supe up a sonogram for a tan tien

 

they can detect electromagnetic pulses from outside our universe

 

they did it for John Chang years ago

 

Let's do it again- with even more hi-tech devices

 

Here I am.

[SonOfTheGods]

science has many various machines/monitors/detectors/meters that can monitor, detect, etc all types of energy

 

hell, they can tweak-supe up a sonogram for a tan tien

 

they can detect electromagnetic pulses from outside our universe

 

they did it for John Chang years ago

 

Let's do it again- with even more hi-tech devices

 

Here I am.

 

Conversation, from me- continuing here:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/33829-what-i-have-learned-from-several-forums/?p=525500

 

Because calling everyone out, on a forum, might upset $ome people

[Charles Crawford III]

science has many various machines/monitors/detectors/meters that can monitor, detect, etc all types of energy

 

hell, they can tweak-supe up a sonogram for a tan tien

 

they can detect electromagnetic pulses from outside our universe

 

they did it for John Chang years ago

 

Let's do it again- with even more hi-tech devices

 

Here I am.

You provide the test subject, and I will provide the science equipment. What abilities can you demonstrate? How many times a day can you demonstrate them? Can you produce the same level of energy each time? Depending on what you can produce, I can get the desired testing equipment.

 

For instance, if you can move paper with Qi, I would search you for hidden devices, with a metal detector, and x-rays. Once everyone is satisfied you are not using any devices, then we would test the abilities. We could graph the power based off distance from the objects, and the weight of the objects. Pressure sensors could measure and compute the force being applied. We would try to measure the energy with electro-static receivers, magnetic field detectors, chemical sensors, temperature cameras, high speed cameras, sensitive sound recording devices and anything else we can think of.

 

John Chang's scientists only had a cheap multimeter, and a handheld metal detector. I am talking about oscilloscopes, and x-ray in a controlled lab, under scientific scrutiny.

 

After a few years of research we will be giving lectures at TED talks, and MIT, along with published articles of the experiments.

[SonOfTheGods]

You provide the test subject, and I will provide the science equipment. What abilities can you demonstrate? How many times a day can you demonstrate them? Can you produce the same level of energy each time? Depending on what you can produce, I can get the desired testing equipment.

 

For instance, if you can move paper with Qi, I would search you for hidden devices, with a metal detector, and x-rays. Once everyone is satisfied you are not using any devices, then we would test the abilities. We could graph the power based off distance from the objects, and the weight of the objects. Pressure sensors could measure and compute the force being applied. We would try to measure the energy with electro-static receivers, magnetic field detectors, chemical sensors, temperature cameras, high speed cameras, sensitive sound recording devices and anything else we can think of.

 

John Chang's scientists only had a cheap multimeter, and a handheld metal detector. I am talking about oscilloscopes, and x-ray in a controlled lab, under scientific scrutiny.

 

After a few years of research we will be giving lectures at TED talks, and MIT, along with published articles of the experiments.

 

 

Posted Today, 01:37 PM

Charles Crawford III, on 20 Feb 2014 - 11:57, said:

I am posting this again, here:

 

You provide the test subject, and I will provide the science equipment. What abilities can you demonstrate? How many times a day can you demonstrate them? Can you produce the same level of energy each time? Depending on what you can produce, I can get the desired testing equipment.

 

 

 

Telekinesis- I can move something that is locked under a glass globe- where wind or movement will not affect it.

 

Also EMI

 

I can also move someone while I stand a reasonable distance away from them- however, to prove that one in a lab would be difficult unless it was a robot lol because science would call in the "emotional/mental" variable. Samething with Qi Transmission/Shaktipat

 

I can produce large amount of Qi, constantly

 

Even Orgasm, only makes it stronger- zero down time-- that's why I avoid Mo Pai

 

The 3 day downtime after sex is something I disagree with- unless that is only for Mo Pai beginners.

 

(I could *ask*)

[SonOfTheGods]

 

Posted Today, 01:46 PM

Charles Crawford III, on 20 Feb 2014 - 11:57, said:

For instance, if you can move paper with Qi, I would search you for hidden devices, with a metal detector, and x-rays. Once everyone is satisfied you are not using any devices, then we would test the abilities. We could graph the power based off distance from the objects, and the weight of the objects. Pressure sensors could measure and compute the force being applied. We would try to measure the energy with electro-static receivers, magnetic field detectors, chemical sensors, temperature cameras, high speed cameras, sensitive sound recording devices and anything else we can think of.

 

John Chang's scientists only had a cheap multimeter, and a handheld metal detector. I am talking about oscilloscopes, and x-ray in a controlled lab, under scientific scrutiny.

 

After a few years of research we will be giving lectures at TED talks, and MIT, along with published articles of the experiments.

 

 

I want to prove that Qi is real

 

How to "do it" is different.

 

I do not want to "give the techniques away" too easily, because the abilities I possess, is not for everyone.

 

Just mind control alone- is bad for the general public.

 

What I do want readily available for the public is information showing that- practicing Qi energy work is very useful and the long practice time is productive for future endeavors

 

But you have to work for it- This isn't fast food chi kung

 

Governments world wide have worked with Remote Viewing, Psychotronics, Telekinesis, Free Energy etc-- all in hopes of improved warfare tech abilities

 

_

 

I don't want to do cheesey youtube videos

 

too much room is allowed for fakery

 

I want to be scientifically monitored

 

I would rather heal a child of brain cancer than perform a magic trick making fire in a stack of newspaper

Edited February 21, 2014 by SonOfTheGods

[Nungali]

People have been saying that since the 19th century

 

I was reading a book from the 1920's about bioenergy the other day, talking about how scientific acceptance is 'just around the corner!'

 

Honestly I think that short of some John Chang type volunteering to be a lab rat, nothing is going to bring about acceptance of the spiritual nature of reality except for the growth and maturation of humanity as a civilization. There's already a ton of objective, scientific evidence out there, and this stuff is easier than ever to personally experience thanks to the internet, if people don't believe in it, either they don't want to believe in it or they're incapable of shaking off the dogma of materialist reductionism long enough to consider it properly. Hell, I used to be one of those people, so I know what it's like, and for someone in that situation, the only way to change it is to forcefully shove it in their face until they can't deny it any longer - which might prove problematic with the entirety of the human species.

 

 

yeah but once they prove and anal ise it in the lab they will claim it and say it is not the spiritual nature of reality it is a newly discovered scientific principle.

[Taomeow]

Y'all will probably agree that love is a great power.

 

How do you test is "scientifically?"

 

All true power is like that, and interestingly, hitting the wall every time you try to measure true power "scientifically" tells you something about what passes for "science" these days. Power over trapped, imprisoned, enslaved, or dead matter.

 

Freedom is a great power. How do you measure the amount of freedom I have "scientifically?"

 

Beauty is a great power. How do you measure it "scientifically?"

 

Does its reality depend on whether you can measure it scientifically?

 

Let's move on to more esoteric powers. I say I can move objects with my eyes when no one is watching. And I say there's a greater Self that knows if there's a hidden camera too, which the lesser self does not know anything about, and this greater Self won't teleport in front of it. It has its reasons. It knows that every power harnessed gets militarized. It does not want to give them this weapon. It won't show what it can do, ever, to anyone. Does it mean I am lying about the power?.. Or does the state in which this is possible require non-interference from prying eyes, for reasons their owners may not begin to fathom?..

 

And if you (the generic you) reckon nothing can exist that can't be measured or proved, how do you like the machine you've locked yourself in to live your measurable, mechanical, robotic life in?..

 

Nothing at all can be measured by methods of reductionist science except for things reduced to mechanical bodies stripped of souls.

 

I say I can command the hurricane. Prove or disprove it. How do you measure what I did or didn't do to the hurricane, and what I did or didn't do it for? How do you measure love, or rage, or self-sacrificing altruism if you don't know what to look for?

 

Karl Popper the great philosopher of science: "scientific" means "falsifiable." If you can't falsify it, it's not scientific. No one can prove anything scientifically that can't be falsified. Think about it...

 

It's meaningless to go external to prove or disprove the existence or nonexistence of esoteric powers -- ANYTHING can be falsified that you approach from the outside looking in.

 

Instead of wasting time on proving or disproving the falsifiable, spend it on developing the powers you fancy. This is the only way to prove -- to yourself, it begins and stops there -- that you are more, or less, than the common denominator. Stop trying to impress mommy and daddy and the world as a stand-off for mommy and daddy, see the kind of power this awakens. Get to a state where you don't give a rat's ass whether anyone knows what kind of power you have or don't have... Power begins there.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

edited

...

Edited February 22, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[Ya Mu]

I want to prove that Qi is real

...

 

I would rather heal a child of brain cancer than perform a magic trick making fire in a stack of newspaper

How can you be so misinformed? EVERYONE here knows that making fire (due to matches no longer being made, I guess) is much more powerful and important than any medical application of qi. What are you thinking?

 

Seriously,

Good of you to step up to the plate.

However, just to warn you of what you face, I have offered for 30 years free services of qi projection to anyone wishing to do medical qigong study and no one has ever taken me up on it. One of the problems is these studies take bundles of money to accomplish. Renting an acoustics lab, for instance, is far from "having access to an oscilloscope".

We did one trial study of standing electromagnetic waves from qi projection where the data was not released due to a "calibration contamination"; or really due, I think, to the PhD not wanting to share and keeping it for their as yet unpublished book. But it was really interesting to see that every time I projected the standing magnetic waves occurred (as witnessed by an MD observing the instrumentation). Also interesting was the fact that it took them quite a while (around 15 to 20 minutes) to dampen down after I quit projecting. But really, what the hell does this mean, practically? Not a damn thing unless something practical is accomplished. Which it was.

Also, bear in mind that even though we can measure infrasonic up to gigahertz, IMO the complexity of qi projection has components and component frequencies that are far beyond what we are able to measure. Perhaps in another 10 years or so the equipment will be nearly there. Still, how can one measure "intent"? As in, when qi projection occurs it takes both energy and intent. It cannot be measured and probably never will be.

Devices like the "qi machines" which output infrasonic frequency as measured from qi projection in an acoustic lab, are only one small component of Qi. IMO we will never see machines capable of output of the entire spectrum of energetics. Although I am hoping for better understanding of what qi is in the future.

[SonOfTheGods]

How can you be so misinformed? EVERYONE here knows that making fire (due to matches no longer being made, I guess) is much more powerful and important than any medical application of qi. What are you thinking?

 

Seriously,

Good of you to step up to the plate.

However, just to warn you of what you face, I have offered for 30 years free services of qi projection to anyone wishing to do medical qigong study and no one has ever taken me up on it. One of the problems is these studies take bundles of money to accomplish. Renting an acoustics lab, for instance, is far from "having access to an oscilloscope".

We did one trial study of standing electromagnetic waves from qi projection where the data was not released due to a "calibration contamination"; or really due, I think, to the PhD not wanting to share and keeping it for their as yet unpublished book. But it was really interesting to see that every time I projected the standing magnetic waves occurred (as witnessed by an MD observing the instrumentation). Also interesting was the fact that it took them quite a while (around 15 to 20 minutes) to dampen down after I quit projecting. But really, what the hell does this mean, practically? Not a damn thing unless something practical is accomplished. Which it was.

Also, bear in mind that even though we can measure infrasonic up to gigahertz, IMO the complexity of qi projection has components and component frequencies that are far beyond what we are able to measure. Perhaps in another 10 years or so the equipment will be nearly there. Still, how can one measure "intent"? As in, when qi projection occurs it takes both energy and intent. It cannot be measured and probably never will be.

Devices like the "qi machines" which output infrasonic frequency as measured from qi projection in an acoustic lab, are only one small component of Qi. IMO we will never see machines capable of output of the entire spectrum of energetics. Although I am hoping for better understanding of what qi is in the future.

 

Thank you- and an excellent reply too.

 

This attempt made by myself, is a display of effort, being made readily available, to anyone who is visiting this forum.

 

if science is lacking in proper understanding of Qi- it is not due to Qi Practitioners.

 

In other words, it is not because there are only a couple of "Masters" left in the world- rather, it is the lack of those interested in testing.

 

It is not on our end.

 

Some may feel that there are very few, valid systems in the world, still able to produce magnificent results.

 

It would appear if only 2 or 3 people were tested and showed awesome power, then no one else has such great abilities.

 

But maybe, only 2 or 3 were fortunate enough to be tested and had their results revealed to a large general public.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

The military are likely way ahead of any of us here.

 

Or maybe not.

 

On edit: Perhaps it rests on the following question;

 

(Are) Power vs(/and) Enlightenment 2 very different things?

...

Edited February 22, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[NotVoid]

If someone believes they can at least potentially produce unusual physical measurable effects of some sort or other using qi manipulation or external qi projection, and they are truly interested in having them self scientifically tested, then I think there are a few things that should be considered.

 

From what I have seen, there is in this current time a fairly strong stigma associated with scientists getting involved in formal research related to the 'paranormal' and 'psi research' and that sort of thing. It is all very much still associated with gypsy fortune tellers and Madame X mediums and telephone call-in psychics and that sort of thing in many people's minds. This stigma I think is due to a large part to the efforts of fundamentalist skeptic movements such as the 'James Randi Educational Foundation' (JREF) and similar sorts of groups. The JREF people have invested huge amounts of time and effort in branding all people who claim to have such abilities as nothing more than frauds or delusional people, and branding the scientists who actually take the time to try investigate such things as nothing more than kooks or extremely gullible people. Because of this many scientists are not so interested at all in risking damaging their careers by undertaking any serious scientific research into anything of this nature. This I believe is the reality of the situation. People like the JREF have done some good in showing that there are a lot of frauds and deluded people associated with the whole paranormal scene, but by painting the whole field with the same brush of all being just the domain of frauds and kooks and very gullible people, I think they have to a large extent put the kibosh on serious scientific research into this area. However, if a person really looks into it, I think you can still find some serious scientists or organizations willing to at least take a look at this sort of thing.

 

Given the above, I think a person would have to be very committed to wanting to see qi scientifically investigated and possess strong altruistic motivation however to undertake trying to get them self scientifically tested. You may well encounter a lot of closed doors, and may have to put a fair bit of effort into searching for scientists who might be interested, and be willing and able to put up with some possibly very rude or dismissive responses and attitudes sometimes without allowing it to get to you, etc. Also, a person may need to put a lot of time and effort into providing demonstrations with possibly not much coming of it, and also very possibly spending a fair bit of their own money on travel expenses and that sort of thing. Any scientists that are willing to do this sort of research may not be very well funded at all. Also, a person should understand that even if they spend a lot of their time being tested scientifically, that it is very likely that nothing much might ever come of it other than maybe a scientific paper or two getting published in some scientific journal. The stigma in the scientific community being what it is, such papers tend to get ignored, or they are just quickly dismissed as faulty research and that sort of thing with other scientists not really even giving fair consideration to the scientific data. This has been my impression at least about such things.

 

However, there are some more likely places to start out with if a person would like to get tested without going through too much effort and struggle. There are some parapsychology departments or related in some universities that might well be interested in doing some scientific testing without too much fuss.

 

There is also the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research program (Pear) at Princeton University which has carried out statistical analysis research on psi phenomena with ordinary subjects for years. They state they have completed this research project, but if they are not interested in doing new research on an individual who can potentially demonstrate unusual measurable phenomena at will, they might at least be able to provide contact info for people who may be interested in doing such research.

http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/

 

There is also the Rhine Research Center located in Durham, NC, which does scientific research into exactly this sort of thing, and I have posted a little info about them here before. One experiment they do is to test bioenergy/qi healers ability to emit higher levels than normal of photons from their body, using very sensitive and stable lab grade measuring equipment. The Rhine Research Center might be a good place to start as they seem to be quite willing to undertake such experiments (that is what they are there for), although again a person should understand that such experimentation may not ever have a whole lot of impact on the scientific community as a whole, but given enough time you just never know. Maybe a person just has to be prepared to start out with really small steps and be patient enough to see where it eventually leads to.

http://www.rhine.org

Rhine Bioenergy Lab:

http://www.rhine.org/what-we-do/current-research/235-a-study-of-human-biofields-by-bill-joines-ph-d.html

 

Here is a video of one such experiment conducted on a qigong practitioner by the Rhine Research Center:

Edited February 22, 2014 by NotVoid

[NotVoid]

Posted on the Rhine Research Center, Bioenergy Lab web page:

 

"Press release from March 2012:

Researchers at the Rhine Research Center have found that experienced meditators, healers and martial artists who claim to manipulate "chi" or healing energies are actually able to produce energy at a far higher rate than average people under strictly controlled laboratory conditions. "Chi" is a thus far unproven form of energy, which is believed by many in Eastern societies to be a kind of "life" or "health" force.

 

Over the last 30 years, Rhine researchers have put these claims to the test, putting meditators, healers and martial artists who claim to control these energies into a light proof room designed to eliminate any interference from electrical equipment or any light sources. Using a multiphasic ultra-violet light detector which is designed to measure individual photons produced per half second, Rhine researchers were able to measure dramatic increases in the number of photons in the light-proof room when certain people were meditating, performing healings, or claiming to manipulate Chi. Since photons represent energy in physics, the increase in photons represents an increase in energy that ranges from 500% to 10,000% above the baseline measure of energy in the room.

 

Funded by the Bial Foundation and private donations to the Rhine, these experiments are designed to assist researchers and health professionals to understand the types of energies produced by the human body and to discover the limits for controlling these energies. Meditators, energetic healers, and martial artists claim the ability to focus their attention and manipulate these energies, and these experiments appear to verify that some people are able to control these invisible energies of the body."

 

You can sign up as a research participant at the Rhine Research Center here:

http://www.rhine.org/what-we-do/current-research/232-are-you-interested-in-participating-in-research-at-the-rhine-center.html

 

 

P.S. Just wanted to mention one other thing. In the bio-photon emission measurement experiment which they do at Rhine, They stated they are measuring photon levels in the ultraviolet range, which of course is just a small range of frequencies within the full electromagnetic spectrum, but, from what I have read elsewhere, apparently the light range of frequencies is the range of frequencies in the EM frequency spectrum which contains the highest level of photon emission by the average person's body. They want to try to avoid the infrared frequency range because photon emission in that frequency range can be accounted for by ordinary body heat emission. Because EM energy emission in the ultraviolet spectrum range is only just a small portion of the EM frequency range, and because photon emission is just one form of measurable energy emission, it is quite possible if not probable that what we call qi actually encompasses much, much more than what they are capable of physically measuring in these types of experiments, but that they can measure a very notable increase in photon emission at all in the UV light range is still quite significant from the scientific perspective. In other words, it appears at least to be a good start.

Edited February 22, 2014 by NotVoid