Marblehead Posted February 19, 2014 My personal reason to resolve if the dao spoken of by Taoists was nothing or no-thing is connected with the big bang ... Yes, that is how I look at the question. Again I quote myself: Everything that is, is, always had been, and always will be. Things just ake different form over time. What was prior to the Big Bang? Singularity. Science has yet to define Singularity. I have concluded that Singurity is condensed "Everything". Total chaos - no things - pure energy (and maybe hydrogen?). And yes, I prefer the Big Crunch theory. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) D4rr3n, Ok on the quote you gave... but in your statement of: "where everything is destroyed, dissolved into the nothingness" (edit) does not apply to Brahman or the Self; your statement could also imply an end to the "cycles" since if all was gone into a blank, absolute nothingness then there would be no cycles forthcoming (or even starting in the first place) from such a blank or nul endpoint. There is Source and transformation (and truer meanings than destruction) and such transformation works both ways, as the Tao Teh Ching alludes to with words like, "goes far", "return" and also "standing still". Good fortune to you Edited February 20, 2014 by 3bob 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Mar-Vell Posted February 20, 2014 ... Big bang, big crunch. Breathe out, breathe in. ... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d4rr3n Posted February 20, 2014 We are all made from star dust, not just us but our planets too. Hydrogen gas first formed stars and through the fusion of hydrogen gas all the heavier elements were produced and given off as star dust. Clouds of this dust was attracted, pulled together by gravity and formed solid planets. Hydrogen then was the start of all matter but where did this hydrogen come from? Space is not empty, is filled with an energy called alternately vacuum energy, dark energy, quantum field fluctuations etc We know matter appears and disappears into this energy field all the time so it would seam this is the no-thing or if you prefer the all-thing since anything can be made from it. Was this all-thing created from the nothing? Perhaps but we can never become that, our maximum ability is one step removed from the nothing, the breath of the universe, the no-thing. Tao is often compared to water in ancient text and when you think about it the no-thing fits this description but how could the nothing fit that description, it cant in my view. Perhaps the cosmic day starts with the nothing giving birth to the no-thing/all-thing but I think the process by which this would occur is beyond our capability’s to understand. If we attempt it we start talking about paradoxes such as movement of nothing or patterns, shapes and forms in nothing. Maybe the no-thing and the nothing were both created at the same time from a third principle unknowable to us. Motion might ultimatly be the result of the interaction of the nothing with the no-thing....your brain in knots yet 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted February 20, 2014 Yeah, you have gone as far as I have been able to go with this. IMO, Prime Cause is unknowable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) mind in its duality will always be a step from Spirit for only Spirit knows Spirit or only the *Self knows the Self. (*Self as used in the Upanishads) Edited February 20, 2014 by 3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d4rr3n Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) The human brain consists of two hemispheres one hemisphere is commonly referred as masculine (left) whilst the other is feminine (right). We could replace masculine and feminine with yang and yin, therefore the human mind operates in a state of taichi. This brain is not capable of non dualistic thought since it is itself dualistic in nature however there is that central channel that yogis keep talking about which is beyond dualism and may allow us to directly experience things which are not dualistic. The no-thing (Dao) is beyond dualism and therefore our only hope of directly preserving it lies in the use of this central channel and the various chakras (which are also non dualistic) Edited February 20, 2014 by d4rr3n 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted February 20, 2014 The human brain consists of two hemispheres one hemisphere is commonly referred as masculine (left) whilst the other is feminine (right). We could replace masculine and feminine with yang and yin, therefore the human mind operates in a state of taichi. This brain is not capable of non dualistic thought since it is itself dualistic in nature however there is that central channel that yogis keep talking about which is beyond dualism and may allow us to directly experience things which are not dualistic. The no-thing is beyond dualism and therefore our only hope of directly preserving it lies in the use of this central channel and the various chakras (which are also non dualistic) Hi d4rr3n, Very interesting thread, thank you. If you don't mind, a question... Do you think that "all that you are" is only found in the mind of your human body? Best, Jeff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d4rr3n Posted February 20, 2014 Hi d4rr3n, Very interesting thread, thank you. If you don't mind, a question... Do you think that "all that you are" is only found in the mind of your human body? Best, Jeff The true you resides in your heart and leaves your body like a snake sheds its skin at death. These bodies are like puppets and our true self is the unseen puppet master. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Mar-Vell Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) ... edited, mysteriously ... Edited February 20, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted February 20, 2014 The true you resides in your heart and leaves your body like a snake sheds its skin at death. These bodies are like puppets and our true self is the unseen puppet master. Is it not possible for the "true you" to be realized while still staying in contact with the body? Regarding the "puppets"... Does that mean that you do not believe there is such thing as "free will" or the ability to act? Finally, is your "true self" the same as my "true self"? Thanks, Jeff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Mar-Vell Posted February 20, 2014 ... When you realise what it is to truly act, then you realise the "true you," in this lifetime, directly. Free will is paramount. Topmost peak. To act, not from conditioned habit response, which is self imposed blindness, but from an expanded awareness that neither clings nor rejects, but seeks only for universal benefit. This is one of the methods of the boddhisatvas. It has a magical effect if properly employed. I am not really sure if the above is correct or clear. I might edit. But I shall meditate on this: Finally, is your "true self" the same as my "true self"? ... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d4rr3n Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) Is it not possible for the "true you" to be realized while still staying in contact with the body? Regarding the "puppets"... Does that mean that you do not believe there is such thing as "free will" or the ability to act? Finally, is your "true self" the same as my "true self"? Thanks, Jeff Your body is like a car and you (not me) is the driver so yes you have free will, you are not a physical thing in reality. No my higher self is not your higher self, we are only one at the level of dao Yes the true you is realised by using your body as a tool, by turning inwards Edited February 20, 2014 by d4rr3n 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted February 20, 2014 "Yes the true you is realized by using your body as a tool, by turning inwards" d4rr3n Sounds like a formula towards solving the question in your first post, btw. what branches of Hinduism have you studied? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d4rr3n Posted February 20, 2014 "Yes the true you is realized by using your body as a tool, by turning inwards" d4rr3n Sounds like a formula towards solving the question in your first post, btw. what branches of Hinduism have you studied? Ultimately I am only interested in gaining knowledge if it can be put to some practical use so yes all my thoughts around this subject has been to make a map with directions, to know where I am and to know where I’m going (and obviously how to get there). From a young age I have studied esoteric, occult, mystical traditions including some of this has touched on Indian traditions. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted February 21, 2014 Ultimately I am only interested in gaining knowledge if it can be put to some practical use so yes all my thoughts around this subject has been to make a map with directions, to know where I am and to know where I’m going (and obviously how to get there). From a young age I have studied esoteric, occult, mystical traditions including some of this has touched on Indian traditions. Yep, the right question is half the answer, or something like that... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted February 21, 2014 ...and one kind of map says to back-track your tracks, and if so where would you then be going to? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted February 21, 2014 Maps are good because you can point to where you are not after you have gotten lost. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted February 21, 2014 Maps are good because you can point to where you are not after you have gotten lost. yep, the right map is half the location, or something like that... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted February 21, 2014 yep, the right map is half the location, or something like that... That sounds like it came from a different saying but I can't recall. I had to use maps a lot during Army duty. Mostly I had to know where to point my antenna for radio communications. I think we have gone off topic. Hehehe. Nothing new for me. Or is that no-thing? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted February 22, 2014 a side note: some maps are marked with unknown or uncharted territory... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wu Ming Jen Posted February 22, 2014 The Tao being no thing should leave the mind peaceful and tranquil, just pure open awareness. Tao being something that needs to be understood will lead one way of the mark, full of contrivance and pre conceived thoughts. The center of the map, keeping to the center, all directions become clear. If you shoot an arrow you pull back in the opposite direction and hold, build up resistance and then release. store the energy of rejection, failure, you cant do it and so on, store and release in the direction you want your life to develop. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted February 22, 2014 The observable universe is only 4% of its totality. That 4% is Tao manifested. And yes, we can know the manifested Tao. The other 96%? Well, I think the 4% will still keep us busy for a while. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beyonder Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) When people talk about wanting to reach this nothing I naturally thought to myself why would anyone want to do that! to destroy themselves by passing their spirit into the void, to be dissolved into nothingness. I then thought to myself no this cant be what the Taoists are talking about, they must be talking about uniting their spirit with the no-thing which is ultimately the spirit of the universe (basically uniting the spirit of the macrocosm with the spirit of the microcosm). If possible a human would then attain a state of cosmic consciousness or enlightenment. Obviously I would rather set my ultimate goal as reaching a state of cosmic consciousness and not dissolution and destruction into nothingness In the Grand Beginning (of all things) there was nothing in all the vacancy of space; there was nothing that could be named. It was in this state that there arose the first existence - the first existence, but still without bodily shape. From this things could then be produced, (receiving) what we call their proper character. That which had no bodily shape was divided; and then without intermission there was what we call the process of conferring. (The two processes) continuing in operation, things were produced. As things were completed, there were produced the distinguishing lines of each, which we call the bodily shape. That shape was the body preserving in it the spirit, and each had its peculiar manifestation, which we call its Nature. When the Nature has been cultivated, it returns to its proper character; and when that has been fully reached, there is the same condition as at the Beginning. That sameness is pure vacancy, and the vacancy is great. It is like the closing of the beak and silencing the singing (of a bird). That closing and silencing is like the union of heaven and earth (at the beginning). The union, effected, as it is, might seem to indicate stupidity or darkness, but it is what we call the 'mysterious quality' (existing at the beginning); it is the same as the Grand Submission (to the Natural Course). -Zhuangzi, Outer Chapters, Heaven and Earth, 8 http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/heaven-and-earth Or, in even clearer terms: In emptiness, there is good but no evil. Wisdom exists, logic exists, the Way exists, mind is empty. - Miyamoto Musashi, Book of five rings, Scroll of Emptiness. Edited March 2, 2014 by beyonder Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) In the Grand Beginning (of all things) there was nothing in all the vacancy of space; there was nothing that could be named. In emptiness, there is good but no evil. Wisdom exists, logic exists, the Way exists, mind is empty. The invisible Tao was existed before the vacancy of space. Heaven and Earth are the manifestation of Tao. In emptiness, there is no good nor evil. Edited March 1, 2014 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
