freeform Posted July 16, 2007 It's kind of hard to put my question into words, but I'll try. Is it a worthy aim to merge with the void?... in the sense that the void is everything and nothing in one go and you merging with it would mean no you, no void, no one observing the void - what Paul and Aiwei generally seem to point to. My feeling is that this is not what I'm looking for. Not that I'm drawn to be separate from the void... more like being individuated, but of the void. words fail me, but might be interesting to explore... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pietro Posted July 16, 2007 It's kind of hard to put my question into words, but I'll try. Is it a worthy aim to merge with the void?... in the sense that the void is everything and nothing in one go and you merging with it would mean no you, no void, no one observing the void - what Paul and Aiwei generally seem to point to. My feeling is that this is not what I'm looking for. Not that I'm drawn to be separate from the void... more like being individuated, but of the void. words fail me, but might be interesting to explore... Sounds like it is too early to even ask the question. Many years ago a friend gave me the following tip: don't apply for a job for which you cannot understand the job description. I think I would put your question in that category for now ;-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ryan McCoole Posted July 16, 2007 Wow what a question.... Do you feel maybe that you won't be as effective or calm in your everyday life if your constantly using energy to merge with the Void? Is it an energy and time issue as well? For me, it's almost like the less I try the more the Dao comes to me. Surprise surprise! haha. But I know where your coming from, because there were times when I said, "Well hell, it'd be better for me if I did..such and such...instead of worrying about the Void constantly. Also to all the bums, isn't the Void the final goal in alchemy as well? Jing->Qi->Shen->Void? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zenbrook Posted July 16, 2007 Is it a worthy aim to merge with the void?... (Given the fact there's no-one else here.... I'll stick in my two penneth and await the drubbing!) It's an aim.... and a worthy, indeed absolutely necessary, one at that. Just don't see it as an end, only a beginning. And the beginning, as we all know, is where the end is at Peace, ZenB Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rex Posted July 16, 2007 How about the middle way beyond the extremes of samsara and nirvana? Non-abiding nirvana. 'You' merge with the 'Void' and spontaneously manifest qualities and activity in response to the needs of sentient beings. These qualities and activities are inseparable from the 'Void' and are not an addition to it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pero Posted July 16, 2007 Is emptiness the same as the "void"? If so, I would say no. Basically, the danger is that you could become a sort of deva in the formless realm. Living for thousands of years with no suffering perhaps, but it is no enlightenment. Realizing emptiness and merging with it are not the same thing IMO, but I could be wrong. But I`m not reallly sure if we are talking about the same thing. To me merging with emptiness means my body would enter (dissolve) into emptiness, and what that means is what I said above. It is the danger of the emptiness meditation. That and being reborn in the formless realm. Or so I hear. So I`m not sure if I agree with you Rex. I am a bit confused on this topic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zenbrook Posted July 16, 2007 How about the middle way beyond the extremes of samsara and nirvana? Non-abiding nirvana. 'You' merge with the 'Void' and spontaneously manifest qualities and activity in response to the needs of sentient beings. These qualities and activities are inseparable from the 'Void' and are not an addition to it. Great stuff..... but why run before we can walk? We need to taste the void (or emptiness, sunyata, whatever) in order to know what is not, in order to know what truly is. Then we can begin to appreciate the middle way and the Buddha's idle talk begins to make sense Great stuff, though........ Peace, ZenB Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThirstyTraveler Posted July 16, 2007 It's kind of hard to put my question into words, but I'll try. Is it a worthy aim to merge with the void?... in the sense that the void is everything and nothing in one go and you merging with it would mean no you, no void, no one observing the void - what Paul and Aiwei generally seem to point to. My feeling is that this is not what I'm looking for. Not that I'm drawn to be separate from the void... more like being individuated, but of the void. words fail me, but might be interesting to explore... Freeform, you might want to explore the Waking Down work. I read one of your past posts talking about a NLP teacher (JS) that you like. He woke up using the waking down transmission. It is a "both/and" awakening (you are still a limited human being while paradoxically being unlimited). You wake up to consciousness but remain your individuated self (no need to kill the ego or perfect yourself...although it starts to harmonize after you awaken which is said to be quite challenging). It is a totally embodied form of awakening (it makes for a challenging life to be a deeply open and feeling person unable to disassociate or buffer yourself from the inevitable suffering in the world). Many of the teachers previously had advaitic awakenings before finding themselves in this work and say this is deeper. I have not awakened using this method so I can't personally vouch for it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mYTHmAKER Posted July 16, 2007 It's kind of hard to put my question into words, but I'll try. Is it a worthy aim to merge with the void?... in the sense that the void is everything and nothing in one go and you merging with it would mean no you, no void, no one observing the void - what Paul and Aiwei generally seem to point to. My feeling is that this is not what I'm looking for. Not that I'm drawn to be separate from the void... more like being individuated, but of the void. words fail me, but might be interesting to explore... Maybe yin - yang. No mind - mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
林愛偉 Posted July 17, 2007 The reason why there was ever a statement of "merging" with the void, was because of the endless thougts, mindless chatter and myriad afflictions living beings have. All of these things present the idea that there is something that is empty, and all encompassing, and that it must mean that if we are this empty thing, we will have peace. Therefore...merge. It is not true. THere is no merging. Only a lessening of that which is of the mind, and a transformation that is only a transformation because it is a losing of all attachments which allows the original mind to be uncovered. Void is still a state, and nothing to dance over.. though it is not easy to attain such a state, it is a state nonetheless. Just meditate, and where one gets to, one gets to. Then one can go or a longer meditation practice. Without patience and wisdom, any form of meditation will be a pain in the...legs. States that are reached are simply empty in and of themselves. Why cling to emptiness, when emptiness has nothing to cling to...? People do cling to emptiness. The void has no entrance and no exit. There is nothing that can be merged with it, for it is not a thing. It is only mind that can be transformed, or in other words, A mind that is of no personal attachments, a mind that is free to come and go as pleases. The void encompasses all, all is within the void.. the void is within all, all is encompassing the void. Because the two are of eachother, it is a state. BEcause the two are called two, it is a state. When the two are called one, it is still a state. When there is no viewing them as what conditions relay them to be, there is no void, no things within and without, for all things are no more and there is nothing that can take the mark of no more. Time for breakfast... noodles and tomatoes. Peace, Aiwei Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trunk Posted July 17, 2007 My feeling is that this is not what I'm looking for. Not that I'm drawn to be separate from the void... more like being individuated, but of the void. This is a genuine topic. As one learns to still the internal mundane activity, more vast, purified, fields of consciousness come to the fore. This goes deeper without end. Part of that is that the purification factor kicks in more powerfully: more mundane patterns of energy dissolve in the presence of significantly greater purity. As this gets stronger, an aspirant needs greater and greater methods of staying "put together", coherent, not just getting sucked up into eternity and not coming back. One comment I've heard mentioned from a teacher is that (paraphrased) it used to be fashionable to merge with eternity and not come back, and more recently it was seen that one could accomplish more - and be of deepening benefit - by staying. This same teacher poetically mentioned "a bowl strong enough to hold the Tiger's milk". (btw, I'm not suggesting that understand what MG was saying/teaching, this is just my current suspicion). Relavent topics (as far as I know) are: the bodhisattva vow (there are mahayana and vajrayana versions of the bodhisattva vow), heaven & earth integration through physical training (example: the Taoist internal martial arts), bindu teachings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cameron Posted July 17, 2007 From what I have experienced, Living in The Now resolves all these things. In the Now there is this flow and surrender and merging that happens beyond the ego(as ego is all in your mind to begin with). I don't know what to call it. It feels like love to me..actually the best explanation I could come up with is it feels like SPACE. Love..Awareness..Space..being free of the "little me". Are you saying you want to hold on to the little me and also get enlightenement? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cameron Posted July 17, 2007 From what I have experienced, Living in The Now resolves all these things. In the Now there is this flow and surrender and merging that happens beyond the ego(as ego is all in your mind to begin with). I don't know what to call it. It feels like love to me..actually the best explanation I could come up with is it feels like SPACE. Love..Awareness..Space..being free of the "little me". Are you saying you want to hold on to the little me and also get enlightenement? I don't see any problem with that either. Actually if you check out a thread I posted recently called "same shit new day" Genpo Roshi..an enlightened American Zen Master..goes into his approach which includes both non dual and dual. It's quite interesting stuff I might check out. Big Mind/Genpo Roshi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Todd Posted July 17, 2007 (edited) Is it a worthy aim to merge with the void?... in the sense that the void is everything and nothing in one go and you merging with it would mean no you, no void, no one observing the void What Zenbrook and Aiwei said (though I don't understand a lot of what Aiwei says without some mental gymnastics, which isn't a good sign somewhere-- mostly likely within me, since today I've felt pretty crappy and separate). But do you really want to know? Sometimes its convenient to bake up a question that we know cannot be answered to our satisfaction by another. It does expose hesitancy toward truth, though, if we want to look at that. It can also be confirmation that we don't need to look outside for truth (still hoping that maybe it can be given). You already know where aims lead us. Is there another question? Edited July 17, 2007 by Todd Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
林愛偉 Posted July 17, 2007 (edited) What Zenbrook and Aiwei said (though I don't understand a lot of what Aiwei says without some mental gymnastics, which isn't a good sign somewhere-- mostly likely within me, since today I've felt pretty crappy and separate). But do you really want to know? Sometimes its convenient to bake up a question that we know cannot be answered to our satisfaction by another. It does expose hesitancy toward truth, though, if we want to look at that. It can also be confirmation that we don't need to look outside for truth (still hoping that maybe it can be given). You already know where aims lead us. Is there another question? If one doesn't know where the void is, how will one merge with it...? Can anyone point to its direction? peace, Aiwei Edited July 17, 2007 by 林愛偉 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cameron Posted July 17, 2007 If one doesn't know where the void is, how will one merge with it...? Can anyone point to its direction? peace, Aiwei Nope! But this feels like the right direction Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
林愛偉 Posted July 17, 2007 (edited) Nope! But this feels like the right direction hahaha what humor we have! Keep in mind though, feeling may point the direction, but along the path, let go of the view of feeling. The Void...It is not what is felt but it is what is without the view of that which is felt. Peace, Aiwei Edited July 17, 2007 by 林愛偉 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cameron Posted July 17, 2007 hahaha what humor we have! Keep in mind though, feeling may point the direction, but along the path, let go of the view of feeling. It is not what is felt but it is what is without the view of that which is felt. Time for more noodles and tomatoes! Peace, Aiwei Yeah...Ime going out into nature for a few days this week to explore that I don't exist thing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
林愛偉 Posted July 17, 2007 Yeah...Ime going out into nature for a few days this week to explore that I don't exist thing You are fast! haha Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rex Posted July 17, 2007 Is emptiness the same as the "void"? If so, I would say no. ... Realizing emptiness and merging with it are not the same thing IMO, but I could be wrong. So I`m not sure if I agree with you Rex. I am a bit confused on this topic. Me too Peter. It depends on how the 'Void' is seen and used to inform practice. From a vajrayana perspective, the clear light nature of mind is inseparable from emptiness, qualities (like compassion), and activity. So emptiness, in this context, being one quality of the goal, is not the goal, but path. Great stuff..... but why run before we can walk? Exactly ZenB. Non-abiding nirvana refers to the state of a buddha. Nice if one can get there using a non-gradual approach though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
三江源 Posted July 17, 2007 freeform, I also aim for individuation. My pov is that the void isnt just "the void'. It's contains (is) every vibration there ever was or will be. For us to experience any of 'it' it has to be filtered through the vibration of our being, that's the only way we can experience it, and the more individuated we are, the more we have to contribute and receive. The more individuated we are, the more clear we can be as vessels to receive the bliss and wisdom and cleansing of 'the void' and have a sense about what is authentic and what is ego/mind games. The trickster is always there presenting false voids, in the psyche of a naive seeker.To be UNindividuated in this complex world, is not the same as being an uncarved block of wood, in a simple world. Sometimes I think this whole thing is like a series of Dr Who, and we are all from different planets, attempting to communicate with one another, but with different aimd and outcomes inevitably built in to who we are. If we must refine our chi, then we must for the same sort of reasons refine our psyche's and awarenesses of self, imo. There are so many myths and stories about people gazing at a reflection of the moon in a pond, and thinking it's the moon. I believe it's easy to gaze at what you think is the void, when really it's the wall in front of you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zenbrook Posted July 17, 2007 I believe it's easy to gaze at what you think is the void, when really it's the wall in front of you. And maybe there are those who gaze at what they think is the wall, when really it's the void in front of them Peace, ZenB Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
林愛偉 Posted July 17, 2007 And maybe there are those who gaze at what they think is the wall, when really it's the void in front of them Peace, ZenB hahahahahahahahaha you are killing me.. wait.. no me..nothing to kill.. its just a laugh.. who hears??? hhahaha Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Posted July 17, 2007 Is it a worthy aim to merge with the void? I don't think it matters, because I think you can't do it by aiming to. And I think it's sort of self-regulating, because if you have unfinished business, you will by definition finish it before you merge with anything. Does that make sense? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fatherpaul Posted July 17, 2007 It's kind of hard to put my question into words, but I'll try. Is it a worthy aim to merge with the void?... in the sense that the void is everything and nothing in one go and you merging with it would mean no you, no void, no one observing the void - what Paul and Aiwei generally seem to point to. My feeling is that this is not what I'm looking for. Not that I'm drawn to be separate from the void... more like being individuated, but of the void. words fail me, but might be interesting to explore... one has never been seperate from the void, thus it is immpossible to merge with it. it is ignorance that causes the apperance of seperation and the need to merge. the concept of being an "individual" is ignorance, the ending of ignorance is the "ending" of the individual. the only litmus tests i use are: if your not having fun, your doing it wrong. and if you dont know what to do, do nothing. ( doing nothing, ahh!) peace paul Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
