Sneeze all the time?

[Stosh]

IMO, Tao is nothing if not ironic. (Irony being the capacity to be seen as both appropriate and inappropriate at the same time.)

So your sense of insanity proves youre getting it right.

Im not a fan of phrases like TRUE and NATURE , however, How would I know if the nature I was seeing was true or not ? Id need another adjective , lets say , angry .. if I was angry , I know what that is and can distinguish it from not angry,, but my false 'nature' is also me and so what distinguishes it from true? because occasionally Im truly angry , given reason to be, naturally.

PS youre allowed to choose one as right , and the other as wrong , thats natural, it just isnt true.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Stosh

[Rara]

IMO, Tao is nothing if not ironic. (Irony being the capacity to be seen as both appropriate and inappropriate at the same time.)

So your sense of insanity proves youre getting it right.

Im not a fan of phrases like TRUE and NATURE , however, How would I know if the nature I was seeing was true or not ? Id need another adjective , lets say , angry .. if I was angry , I know what that is and can distinguish it from not angry,, but my false 'nature' is also me and so what distinguishes it from true? because occasionally Im truly angry , given reason to be, naturally.

PS youre allowed to choose one as right , and the other as wrong , thats natural, it just isnt true.

I got this impression from Zhuangzi. There are many spiritual therapies to rid one of anger, but few people tell you that it's ok because it exists as a natural thing.

 

A similar discussion is going on in that subforum too.

 

I notice these days that any conversation I have on TTB always seems to lead to the same place.

[Stosh]

I got this impression from Zhuangzi. There are many spiritual therapies to rid one of anger, but few people tell you that it's ok because it exists as a natural thing.

 

A similar discussion is going on in that subforum too.

 

I notice these days that any conversation I have on TTB always seems to lead to the same place.

Well I'll say it , anger is a natural emotion to human beings.

 

That being said ,

the reasons for it are pretty much due to sustaining illusions ( like , that you are an individual with rights ) the reason why we entertain this kind of mental construct , despite nature not giving a hoot at all about the "rights" we invent .... is because we LIKE them... we in fact LOVE them , and would be rather inhuman without them. Its just not true that every illusion people have is due to cupidity or weakness of some sort.

 

To understand this idea of illusion, ( ideas which are subjective and without objective vindication) doesnt bless anyone with magical powers , but it does leave a venue to escape from self destructive behaviors which would ordinarily be demanded or occasioned. Nationality , Race , private property , human rights , injustice , money, to name a few ... roots causes of many of the worlds ills .

The issue seems complicated, only because people DO want values and virtues to exist and regulate the social world. They want to feel good about themselves ,and feel that they literally ARE good, because they abide by the RULES.

But nature doesnt care about deaths or misery , it doesnt produce food particularly well in a drought stricken area out of sympathy for the starving babies etc . That kind of thing is done by people , the minds of which are anything BUT 'natural'- in the conventional sense.. but the compassionate expression of nature happens via the minds of people , social animals etc.

The closest nature gets to mercy is speedy death.

So Taoism isnt about emulating natural forces , rather it is understanding the circumstances in which we exist , and living the best life we can , given the facts of human nature such as it is. ... IMO

Edited February 24, 2014 by Stosh

[dawei]

Ah.. you pointed me over here and I choose you to respond to

 

Training to do a natural thing. exactly. Because the Tao (or at least part of the practice) is to return to the true nature.

 

You are going to return to your true nature regardless of practice

 

 

I mentioned Baopuzi in that other thread but in short: Practice is not natural. Practice is to achieve what is not natural for a man to achieve naturally...

[Rara]

Well I'll say it , anger is a natural emotion to human beings.

 

That being said ,

the reasons for it are pretty much due to sustaining illusions ( like , that you are an individual with rights ) the reason why we entertain this kind of mental construct , despite nature not giving a hoot at all about the "rights" we invent .... is because we LIKE them... we in fact LOVE them , and would be rather inhuman without them. Its just not true that every illusion people have is due to cupidity or weakness of some sort.

 

To understand this idea of illusion, ( ideas which are subjective and without objective vindication) doesnt bless anyone with magical powers , but it does leave a venue to escape from self destructive behaviors which would ordinarily be demanded or occasioned. Nationality , Race , private property , human rights , injustice , money, to name a few ... roots causes of many of the worlds ills .

The issue seems complicated, only because people DO want values and virtues to exist and regulate the social world. They want to feel good about themselves ,and feel that they literally ARE good, because they abide by the RULES.

But nature doesnt care about deaths or misery , it doesnt produce food particularly well in a drought stricken area out of sympathy for the starving babies etc . That kind of thing is done by people , the minds of which are anything BUT 'natural'- in the conventional sense.. but the compassionate expression of nature happens via the minds of people , social animals etc.

The closest nature gets to mercy is speedy death.

So Taoism isnt about emulating natural forces , rather it is understanding the circumstances in which we exist , and living the best life we can , given the facts of human nature such as it is. ... IMO

True, while at the same time, at least we have the ability to act upon what we "like". Unlike, say, plants. But things like money etc still can bring happiness even if they do bring along a lot of the worlds ills.

 

Surely it depends on how you use the hand you are dealt with?

[Rara]

Ah.. you pointed me over here and I choose you to respond to

 

 

You are going to return to your true nature regardless of practice

 

 

I mentioned Baopuzi in that other thread but in short: Practice is not natural. Practice is to achieve what is not natural for a man to achieve naturally...

Haha, yes. Which now makes me think how much value there is in "Taoist" practices. I guess Lao Tzu did warn us in the opening chapter of TTC!

[Stosh]

True, while at the same time, at least we have the ability to act upon what we "like". Unlike, say, plants. But things like money etc still can bring happiness even if they do bring along a lot of the worlds ills.

 

Surely it depends on how you use the hand you are dealt with?

Absolutely! and ,of course you are intended to 'cherry-pick'. This is why you weren't handed ten commandments and the threat of unprovable torture after death. There is no Right , no Wrong , No good , No evil , no nice , etc which is not a subjective assesment relative to ourselves.

Wandering around a city, could I correctly help you find your way, by telling you ,to only turn left ?

Id need to know where you wanted to get to. Where you are , and the various routes you might take.

If anyone knows , you would know, what you wanted out of life , and where you were in it ,,,

all thats available for me to help you with , is the layout of the roads , ( which are the same for anyone )

 

Is it easier if someone just says, Do X then Y then Z ? sure ! but thats me imposing my life role on you... and I just dont want the responsibility for doing that when in all likihood youre going to fu''K it up since its not your gig.