Dividing Dragons from the Snakes

[Unbound]

Hello Everyone!

 

I thought I'd introduce myself, give some background, and explain my goals for utilizing these forums. Hopefully someone might be able to point me in an appropriate direction after reading.

 

Soon I will be leaving on a sustainable agriculture initiative to work with some tribal peoples in South America. I will essentially be spending two years in a very remote place without running water or electricity with a decent amount of free time. This to me seems like the perfect opportunity to get some real work/practice done in qigong/yoga/neigong/neidan/weidan/etc and/or the other techniques discussed in these forums without the usual distractions of daily life.

 

So, I've been digging around in the forums for a few weeks, as I wanted to do my due diligence before posting. After hours reading through with seemingly hundreds of tabs open on my browser, I feel I haven't made much progress in finding truth. Threads tend to devolve into arguments and heresay. So I'm hoping those with a little more experience can help me discern the Dragons from the Snakes. Who is legitimate? Who are the frauds?

 

Wang Liping, Dr. Jiang Feng, and John Chang appear to be authentic in achieving a high level of mastery in their various lineages. David Verdesi is a controversial figure to say the least. Can anyone say with confidence who has real attainment and is worth pursuing as a teacher and mentor? I would love to hear your recommendations about where to start my journey. I hear one can injure themselves pretty severely if they train incorrectly. I'd like to eliminate that option from the get-go.

 

Here are the books I own so far:

-Opening the Dragon Gate - The Making of an Authentic Taoist Immortal trans by Thomas Cleary

-Ling Boa tong Zhi Neng Nei gong Shu - Wang Liping and Richard Liao

-Daoist Neigong - The Philosophical Art of Change by Damo Mitchell

-Both of Kostas Dervenis books The Magus of Java and Nei Kung: The Secret Teachings of the Warrior Sages

-2 of Bruce Frantzis' books on the water method of Meditation: Relaxing Into Your Being and The Great Stillness

 

I would certainly also appreciate your recommendations as far as resources and books. So far all of the complex metaphors and translation issues has been fairly confusing to me. Does anyone have a preference for a translation of the Dao De Ching?

 

I'm also beginning work with a yoga instructor so that hopefully I will be able to sit in Full lotus position by the time I leave for South America.

 

Lastly, I wanted to share my motivations for pursuing this path. Obviously they are multifactorial, but ultimately it boils down to simply a yearning to understand the nature of existence itself. Who and what am I? Why do I or any of us exist? How much potential do I have, and how can maximize my ability to make a positive impact on the world? Don't get me wrong, of course I'm psyched about the abilities that supposedly come along with that understanding, but to me those are just awesome side effects and great tools for helping people.

 

Anyway, I wish everyone the best and look forward to hopefully hearing from some of you soon!

[Chang]

Welcome to the Tao Bums and thank you for such a detailed introduction.

 

You will find no shortage of advice on the forum as regards which path to follow but ultimately you must make your own decision as to who are the Dragons and who the Snakes. Were I to advise you I would recommend that you keep things simple and that you sustain your practice throughout your time away. You may well suprise yourself as to how much progress can be gained with regular practice, even if the routine you follow is simple.

 

You will now be able to post freely on the forum but before getting started please take the time to read the two posts pinned at the top of the Lobby and take a look at the forum terms and rules http://thetaobums.com/topic/19575-forum-terms-rules/ This covers all that you need be aware of when getting started.

 

Good luck and best wishes,

 

Chang

[thelerner]

Welcome aboard. I admire your aspirations, my niece spent 2 weeks last summer in Mexico working with a Mayan village, she found it very worthwhile. I hadn't realized Mayans were still around.

 

You're opening up a kettle of worms with the question of who's dragon, who's snake. Like online reviews you tend to get many extremes either 4 star or 0. Personally I like Damo Mitchells work, I'm leery of Kostas's work, if no other reason the school of Mo Pai isn't teaching Westerners.

 

The usual advice is find a teacher your resonate with, take a close look at there students too. Not easy with a book or through the internet or if your traveling abroad. Being in a primitive setting will give you a great opportunity for practice, whichever ones you pick.

 

Ultimately, and particularly without a teacher, keep it simple. Foundational practices tend to be similar, ie work on breath, quiet the mind, develop the hara/dan tien. A standing practice and moving practice are ideal.

 

Post these questions in the general section when you can and do use the search function the site has to look at similar topics.

 

Personally I like Ajahn Brahms, his book Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond:A Meditator's Handbook, and you can find many good free audio dharma speeches of his online. I like Rawn Clark's Archaeous Series at Abardoncompanion.com a series of hermetic elemental practices that work very well with a standing practice.

[Unbound]

Thank you guys very much! I very much appreciate y'alls advice. Thelerner I will definitely check out those resources. I look forward to hopefully speaking more with y'all in the future!

 

Best wishes

[Neikung]

Who is legitimate? Who are the frauds?

 

Wang Liping, Dr. Jiang Feng, and John Chang appear to be authentic in achieving a high level of mastery in their various lineages. David Verdesi is a controversial figure to say the least. Can anyone say with confidence who has real attainment and is worth pursuing as a teacher and mentor? I would love to hear your recommendations about where to start my journey. I hear one can injure themselves pretty severely if they train incorrectly. I'd like to eliminate that option from the get-go.

Don't be so sure about Dr Jiang Feng or Zhai Jiang Feng. Since publication of one of his students in Taiwan Daily, which alleged that Zhai used Tesla Coil to fool the unsuspected victims, I haven't seen any information that would indicate otherwise. His lineage is a suspect, his hunger for big money is a big problem, his so called transfer of qi from bulls (for $) is yet another money grabbing scheme that you should be wary about. In China, there are many stories about so called "qigong" experts that demonstrate similar abilities (using clotted blood from patient's back as indicator of qi blockage, electric-like effects from hands). They have been exposed by authorities as wearing shoes with batteries.

 

 

[ridingtheox]

Yikes I am a dragon my wife of 47 years is a Snake what should i do??

[Truth Seeker]

Unbound, welcome. And congrats on your upcoming trip, it sounds like a very worthwhile endeavor. Since you will be without electricity (internet) and unable to travel to meet any teachers, it seems you're not really in a position to follow any particular teacher/school during your travels. My advice would be to not focus on following any path or dogma right now, or try to sort out who can do what, but rather take this time to focus inward. What's more true, that which you read about or that which you find within? Any genuine practice has the foundation of stilling the mind, seeing a new view of yourself and the world in that quieter, clearer state, and doing the work of removing from your mind/character that which is a hindrance or a veil. That alone can take a lifetime. If you do that for 2 years, you will be in a much better state then to consider a path or school. Sit comfortably, in half-lotus or full lotus if you can, relax deeply and still your mind. It may take many months before you can keep thoughts out of your head for more than 5 seconds. But the more you meditate and the longer your session is (half-hour is not bad, an hour or more is good) the better you become. Eventually you reach new states of awareness, I suspect it's a never-ending ascent. You'll know it when it happens, and that is the beginning of the work. It's not something someone can teach you, you can only reach it yourself.

 

In the meantime, there is much you can read to expose your mind to different schools of thought - not to follow them, but to consider them, their strengths and weaknesses. All the books you read were very recent. To explore classic works of brilliant thought in a few different directions, I'd recommend:

 

Vitality, Energy, Spirit, a Taoist Sourcebook by Thomas Cleary: great anthology of Taoist works

Kashf Al-Mahjub by Ali Ibn Usman (Hujwiri): brilliantly spiritual classic by a sufi master, with wisdom from many sufis

Great Swan by Len Hixon: an Indian perspective and reminder that the heart of spirituality is love

The World We Used to Live In by Vine Deloria: thought-provoking collection of first-hand accounts of amazing phenomena among Native Americans

Magic and Mystery in Tibet by Alexandra David-Neel: fascinating and insightful chronicle into Tibetan Buddhism in early 1900s

 

I'm sure there are brilliant Christian works out there too, I look forward to exploring that realm some day. Best wishes to you.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Truth Seeker

[Unbound]

Wow thanks for the advice! I will definitely have to check out those books. I have been meditating for a few weeks now and I am really enjoying the journey.

 

2 quick questions:

- Any recommended materials on flexibility? I am have a lot of trouble getting into a position to meditate where I am not in serious pain after a while. Unfortunately i'm no where close to full lotus.

- What are y'alls thoughts on psychodelics/entheogens?

 

Sorry for the long delay in reply. Thanks again!

[thelerner]

From the teacher Glenn Morris and from others I was told learn a good variation of the yoga Sun Salutation; for the time spent its the best investment. Its taught at almost all yoga places and there lots of youtubes on it. That's different then exercise's for full lotus. Check google there are some good specific exercises for it. We had some good suggestions on a thread a year or two back by Pythagoreanfullotus.

 

Psychedelics, only advice I have is be careful. There are traps from overdose, poison, freakin out, doing dangerous things while not in your right mind. That's not to say no, just be careful, do it in safe place with people you trust who can take care of you.

 

I was also thinking you may want to investigate mystic practices done in South America. Don't know what they are, and often such things are mis-interpreted in our culture, but if find some things that resonate, you can practice here and now then, fate willing, find a teacher there who'll deepen the practice.

[Unbound]

I would be incredibly excited to get into South American practices. i am desperately hoping the opportunity arises while I am down there. I hear amazing things about ayahuasca and psilocybin. I'm hoping to read Carlos Castaneda's stuff, but I've already gone way over on my book budget for the month haha!

 

Any other must have books? Preferably ones that can be read on an e-reader like a Kindle? I won't be able to take many books with me on my trip.

 

Thanks again!

[Truth Seeker]

There's no shortcut to flexibility, just stretch every day. It took me a year of stretching to get into full lotus.

 

Drugs are a fantasy, not insight. They're pleasant obviously, that's why people take them, and they can cause dramatic visions, but in my opinion it is a lot of randomness and a small amount of internal symbolism, but not real knowledge. If the "truth" does not persist when you are sober, then it's not really truth.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Truth Seeker

[Truth Seeker]

This woman has a number of videos on stretching in regards to lotus:

 

We all have to work with the limits of our body while increasing those limits over time. Half-lotus is good, and switch positions when your knees (especially) or your hips hurt. As the hips open, it will take pressure off the knees.

[Andrei]

You don't need to do any stretching, all you need is just a couple of pillows or a big pillow, if you meditate outside it can be a rock or a log as seen here, the meditation position is not too strenuous:

 

 

Also if you want I can give you a lot of books in .pdf format, you can read them on ipad in ibooks, just PM me what interests you. I have 8 out of 10 Castaneda's books.

[Truth Seeker]

You don't need to do any stretching, all you need is just a couple of pillows or a big pillow...

That statement implies that this modified posture will yield the same results as half or full lotus, which isn't entirely accurate. The balance and structure are different, therefore the results must necessarily be different. I used that modified method myself when starting out and found it helpful to take my mind off my inflexible body, which allowed me to relax. But with stretching over time, I could do regular half and then full lotus, and preferred the results I got with them, and so dropped the modified posture. It all depends on what type of meditation you want to do - many people simply sit in a chair to meditate, or even lay down. But if the goal is "flexibility" as OP stated, and doing true half or full lotus, then stretching is necessary.

[Andrei]

I agree with you, this is also my experience. I found out that in whatever posture you are capable to sit relaxed is better than stretching. In my opinion some people are more tensed because of their energy, they have the tendons stiffer and muscles tensed even when they are relaxed. This is a Yin state of their energy. If you relax and circulate the Qi the muscles and tendons heat themselves and relax and you can stretch them easier. In time the muscles and tendons will adapt and sit in the posture without problems. People with more Yang energy in tendons are more flexible. This is why Bikram Yoga is so succesfull because it is performed at 30 deg C and the muscles relax and the whole body energy becomes Yang. Also if you do full lotus or half lotus in sauna is easier than in cold weather. So yes, it is a combination of stretching with relaxation but I prefer relaxation. The best stretching is when you fully relax and someone else is pushing you. When you push yourself you still need to tense the antagonist muscles, you need to tense your hands or your column muscles, so still you are not complete relaxed. One example of complete relaxation is a lady nun from Thailand or Cambodia that is floating in a pool of water in full lotus, you can find the video on youtube. I tried myself to do that in a hot jacuzzi at spa and is easier than outside at room temperature. Also massage after getting out of posture is compulsory, rubbing of the knees, the ankles the soles, the hip, the sacrum, the kidneys, the big vertebrae, the head, the scalp, the ears, the eye, the nose, the whole face is helping circulate the energy.

[thelerner]

I'm hoping to read Carlos Castaneda's stuff, but I've already gone way over on my book budget for the month haha!

 

Any other must have books? Preferably ones that can be read on an e-reader like a Kindle? I won't be able to take many books with me on my trip.

 

Thanks again!

While Castaneda's books are a kick, I'd find more authentic material to learn South American mystic practices. Don't know what those might be, but I do know Castaneda's probably won't be amongst them.

[Unbound]

Wow thanks everyone for all of the input! I very much appreciate it. Anyone have any thoughts/resources on South American mystic traditions?

[Unbound]

Truth Seeker, would you mind clarifying/expounding upon this statement? I'm not sure I fully understand.

 

If the "truth" does persist when you are sober, then it's not really truth.

 

Thanks!

[Truth Seeker]

That was a typo, should have been "does not." Thanks for catching it, I've edited it. Can't recall which famous figure it was from the '60s who grew discouraged with psychedelic drugs and quit, saying to the effect that drugs allowed him to see reality better, but then sobriety showed that it was just a convincing illusion.

[forestofclarity]

Depending on the person, energy work can be difficult if you don't have enough relaxation, concentration and sensitivity. Based on what I've seen online, this is the downfall of many students. Also, energy methods are extremely different and different people react to them differently.

 

Although not strictly Taoist, concentrating on the breath and developing general mindfulness can be extremely helpful and is the safest method I know:

 

Mindfulness in Plain English

 

Breath of Love

 

As far as self inquiry goes, Sri Sadhu Om and Michael James explain it very well:

 

The Path of Sri Ramana Part 1

 

I have also learned quite a bit from the Direct Path, being Francis Lucille, Greg Goode, and Rupert Spira, they can be easily googled.

 

Finally, I would say keep and open mind and an open heart. I have found that with sincere practice, the cosmos itself will begin to guide you.

[GrandmasterP]

Excellent links, many thanks FoE.

[Unbound]

Yes Thank you both! For anyone who is interested I decided to eat some "mushrooms" and meditate, and I thought I would talk about my experience for the record:

 

I did not experience any visions or anything that seemed different from my experience of reality as normal. It seemed simply to sharpen my senses significantly, and put me in a profound state of relaxation. Colors seemed more vivid, sounds easier to hear, and things that I normally would overlook (like tiny animals and birds in the trees, dust flowing through the air, ants crawling around me) seem glaringly obvious and impossible to miss.

 

I was actually kind of disappointed because I was hoping for some more obvious guidance or direction. I did fall asleep and dream about a group of mesoamericans trying to talk to me in a language I did not understand (didn't appear to be spanish). They seemed amused that I was there and eventually gave up, laughed to each other and left. I was not lucid enough to ask them if they were connected to mushrooms and did not make that connection until later.

 

My meditation went well, although nothing particularly exciting occurred. I feel like it simply put me in a state of meditation and relaxation automatically that experienced meditators probably can reach fairly easily. I'd love to hear your thoughts!

Edited May 8, 2014 by Unbound

[deci belle]

Divining dragons from snakes is ok too!

[MooNiNite]

oh man. this journey. welcome to it. good luck. wear a seatbelt. and uh..good luck.