about Zhuangzi

[Marblehead]

Dawei,

 

I "liked" your post for your effort to gain further understanding of any possible relationship between the two. This could be very interesting if we get those with the ability to read the ancient texts to participate in a discussion of the suggestion.

[dawei]

Another interesting issue I once read was the belief that LZ is actually from Wei, not Chu...

 

And concerning the Guodian bamboo findings (Confucian and Daoist texts)... the research committee who first looked at these thought these might possibly be the "sayings" mentioned by ZZ...

 

But I have not looked into either one.

[Mark Saltveit]

ZZ and LZ lived so long ago that we can't be sure either was an actual person (though there's historical record of a person named Chang Chou who is widely considered to be ZZ). More to the point, there are a lot of reasons to believe that both books are collections of sayings accumulated over years, perhaps an oral tradition, later compiled into a book.

 

The Guodian Laozi fits this theory pretty well, looking a lot like either an embryonic kernel of the book, or a loose collection of some of the raw pieces that were later put together. The Mawangdui silk texts and Beida version are a lot closer to the 250 CE received version, but also look like two examples of a variant that died out, like Neanderthal man, with the De section coming before the Dao, etc.

 

There are quotes from Laozi in the Zhuangzi (but not vice versa). Nonetheless, many thing ZZ might be older, in its "original: kernel, the Inner Chapters, which are widely believed to have been written by Zhuangzi, with the rest added later by devotees. In part because they quote Zhuangzi.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Mark Saltveit

[Rara]

Rara....

I know you have locked in your head that a Taoist do not kill. Why do they learn martial arts and practice with the swords and sabre?

 

There are situations where they can apply the Taoist principles in major cases; and sometimes can't. Nothing is perfect you know?

Yes And I practice wing chun and have been softened through my journey looking at Religious Taoism and Buddhism. As you might have seen from my other thread, I'm slowly reverting back to a more natural me. I'm a nice dude anyway...but will fight (and kill) if need be. I doubt I will ever need to anyway haha

[ChiDragon]

I saw a documentary where Sun Tzu was hired to fight a war, but was asked by the king to prove his ability first. He was to train the king's daughters to fight, as they had never known anything other than a life of luxury and the king realised it would be an impossible task.

 

Sun Tzu began giving instructions and the girls just giggled. So, understanding that if he didn't get results first time, there must be something wrong with his instructions, he sliced one of their heads clean off with a sword. Now they took him seriously and trained.

 

Seems quite brutal...not very Taoist. But pretty smart and he had to do his job. So very Taoist. But why would a Taoist become a war strategist in the first place? Maybe this is just a myth, I'm not sure...

 

As for Zhuangzi, I really like the book. So elaborate, entertaining and very thought provoking. It confused me a lot because at first, I wasn't sure if he was being self-contradicting or not in places or not. Maybe he was...as to make the point that he has all the answers. And there are many...especially the ones he hadn't spoken about!

 

FYI:

Sun Zi was demonstrating to the ruler that the art of war can be applied to train women too. The concubines of the ruler were used for the training. Two of the ruler's favorite concubines were assigned as troop leaders. They were executed in front of the ruler for being disobedient.

 

Edited February 24, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

ZZ and LZ lived so long ago that we can't be sure either was an actual person (though there's historical record of a person named Chang Chou who is widely considered to be ZZ). More to the point, there are a lot of reasons to believe that both books are collections of sayings accumulated over years, perhaps an oral tradition, later compiled into a book.

 

FYI...

Chang Chou or Zhuang Zhou is ZZ's real name. The character 子(Zi) was added the surname of each scholar to indicate as a philosopher of some kind. Hence, we have Lao Zi, Zhuang Zi and Sun Zi.

[Marblehead]

The were executed in front of the ruler for being disobedient.

 

 

That was pretty harsh but it did get the point across, didn't it?

[ChiDragon]

That was pretty harsh but it did get the point across, didn't it?

Yes, that proves the point that a military order is a serious matter under any situation.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

note that there are conversations between Lao Tzu and Confucius in chapters 13 and 14 of Chuang Tzu

[Marblehead]

note that there are conversations between Lao Tzu and Confucius in chapters 13 and 14 of Chuang Tzu

But aren't we here assuming that Lao Tan is Lao Tzu? This might be a stretch.

[ChiDragon]

note that there are conversations between Lao Tzu and Confucius in chapters 13 and 14 of Chuang Tzu

Bull's eye. You did it. Thanks H.E.

 

But aren't we here assuming that Lao Tan is Lao Tzu? This might be a stretch.

That was no assumption, Lao Tan(老聃) is Lzo Tzu(老子) himself. Now, we may come to a conclusion that Zhuang Zi did read the Tao Te Ching after all.

Edited February 24, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Bull's eye. You did it. Thanks H.E.

 

That was no assumption, Lao Tan(老聃) is Lzo Tzu(老子) himself. Now, we may come to a conclusion that Zhuang Zi did read the Tao Te Ching after all.

Don''t you be running into conclusions. Hehehe. With what document are we assuming that Lao Tzu is Lao Tan? (No, that Derek Lin stated such is not proper documentation. Hehehe.)

[ChiDragon]

Don''t you be running into conclusions. Hehehe. With what document are we assuming that Lao Tzu is Lao Tan? (No, that Derek Lin stated such is not proper documentation. Hehehe.)

It was known the Lao Tzu is Lao Tan for century. Why the hell you bring Derek Lin into this? What the hell he knows? IMO He mistranslated chapter one so bad as a Native speaking Chinese. I can cite you more than one Chinese source in saying that Lao Tzu is Lao Tan.

Edited February 24, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

But aren't we here assuming that Lao Tan is Lao Tzu? This might be a stretch.

He's referred to as both Lao Dan and Lao Tzu, example

 

孔子謂老聃曰

"Confucius, speaking to Lao Dan said...."

 

老子曰

"Lao Tzu replied...."

 

Confucius describes Lao Dan in Chapter 14 as such:

 

When Confucius returned from his visit with Lao Tan, he did not speak for three days. His disciples said, "Master, you've seen Lao Tan - what estimation would you make of him?"

Confucius said, "At last I may say that I have seen a dragon - a dragon that coils to show his body at its best, that sprawls out to display his patterns at their best, riding on the breath of the clouds, feeding on the yin and yang. My mouth fell open and I couldn't close it; my tongue flew up and I couldn't even stammer. How could I possibly make any estimation of Lao Tan!"

Tzu-kung said, "Then is it true that the Perfect Man can command corpse-like stillness and dragon vision, the voice of thunder and the silence of deep pools; that he breaks forth into movement like Heaven and earth? If only I too could get to see him!"

In the end he went with an introduction from Confucius and called on Lao Tan. Lao Tan was about to sit down in the hall and stretch out his legs. In a small voice he said, "I've lived to see a great many years come and go. What advice is it you have for me?"

 

There's interesting references to the straw dogs in the chapter as well.

Also a beautiful part of the Yellow Emperor describing Music.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Marblehead]

Good. Burton Watson does use "Lao Tzu" a number of times. And I think it is possible that "Lao Tzu" and "Lao Tan" might be two different people.

 

However, I am still not convinced that Confucius ever saw Lao Tzu. Their ages would have been very different - what?, fifty years?

[Marblehead]

So anyhow, you guys almost have me convinced.

 

I wonder, is there anything written by Confucius that indicates he saw Lao Tzu?

[ChiDragon]

 

I wonder, is there anything written by Confucius that indicates he saw Lao Tzu?

So far, no!

[Marblehead]

So far, no!

So we could easily assume that Chuang Tzu made all that stuff up for the purpose of presenting his concepts.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Not just Watson, but the original text uses Lao Dan and Lao Tzu interchangeably, as seen in the second and third last paragraphs of Chapter 14 here: http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/revolution-of-heaven

 

You'll notice "Confucius said to Lao Dan" is followed by "Lao Tzu replied"

 

 

As to the age difference, if they were 50 years apart in age, Confucius could have been in his early 40s while Lao Tzu in his early 90s. Given his wisdom and harmonious and loving nature, Lao Tzu was certainly a model of someone who lives unusually long. Also, being close to the aristocracy he would have had excellent medical treatment if ever it was needed.

 

Further, it may be that they didn't meet, but the question for now is whether Chuang Tzu knew of Lao Tzu and the Tao Te Ching.

 

As to whether Chuang Tzu knew of the Dao De Jing, I don't know of any reference to it right now (same for Confucius referencing Lao Tzu/Lao Dan. There is another interesting excerpt from ch. 14 though, where a saying which is referred to in a number of the early chapters of the Dao De Jing (especially chapter 14) is attributed to the lord of Yen, though this only goes to show, imo, what is already known, ie, that this wisdom has been passed down and cultivated throughout ancient Chinese history, and the Classics are essentially landmarks of this journey.

 

When the Heavenly mechanism is not put into action and yet the five vital organs are all complete this may be called the music of Heaven. Wordless, it delights the mind. Therefore the lord of Yen sang its praises thus: `Listen - you do not hear its sound; look - you do not see its form. It fills all Heaven and earth, enwraps all the six directions.'

[ChiDragon]

According to the ancient historian 司馬遷, his record had indicated that Confucius did meet Lao Zi three times in his life time before 521 BCE. Also, we have records of their dialogue.


Ref: http://tw.knowledge.yahoo.com/question/question?qid=1509110203787

[Marblehead]

Hey ChiDragon,

 

That link really helped me out. Hehehe. Might as well have been in Korean.

 

You guys are firming up your case though.

 

And I will admit that there are a few times where Chuang Tzu mentions an old saying and it is a qoute almost exactly, of something that is written in the TTC.

 

Anyhow, this has been enjoyable for me. I think I will remain silent for a while now concerning Chuang Tzu and allow others to make comment and ask their questions.

[Mark Saltveit]

Tzu/Zi is an honorific that simply means Master -- Laozi, Zhuangzi, Sunzi (art of war), etc.

Lao Tzu is the man (traditionally) considered to be Lao Dan, but but no one is sure there was such a person. Lao Tzu can also mean "the Old Master" or "the Old Masters", Classical Chinese was a very flexible language.

 

When I was in China, it was very common to refer to old/wise/honored people as Lao Marblehead, or whatever. Similarly, young people were often called "Xiao Luigi" or whatever, where xiao means young or little. As the British might say "Young Master Downton."

 

Tangentially, the word for timid/cowardly was literally "small heart," or "small gallbladder" 胆小

[ChiDragon]

Mark.....

Boy, aren't you confused and please don't confuse others.

Edited February 24, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

However, although I am remaining silent for a while doesn't mean that others need be silent as well.

 

Yes, "the old master" could have been anyone. But when names are used we know that someones specific was being spoken of.

 

It should be a given that Lao Tzu, Lao Tan (Dan), Li Er, and even Boyang are the same one person.

[Rara]

My version of Zhuangzi has Lao Tzu too and he is varified in footnotes.

 

As I said though, who wrote these chapters in comparisson to the first 7?

 

I doubt any of these met...just they are used as characters to argue the point of ZZ. Like "The Vinegar Tasters" painting. It isn't likely that Buddha, Lao Tzu and Confucious were all hanging out discussing their views!