about Zhuangzi

[Marblehead]

It is generally accepted that Chuang Tzu himself wrote the "Inner" chapter, that his friends and followers wrote the "Outer" chapters and that the "Miscellaneous" chapters were a collection from various people. Likely the "Conversations with Confucius" were written by others as well.

[Rara]

It is generally accepted that Chuang Tzu himself wrote the "Inner" chapter, that his friends and followers wrote the "Outer" chapters and that the "Miscellaneous" chapters were a collection from various people. Likely the "Conversations with Confucius" were written by others as well.

Yeah, so I wouldn't rule out that if ZZ hasn't mentioned LZ, he and his followers probably heard of the legend either way. Or maybe just the followers had via ZZ, hence their decision to mention him

 

Or maybe ZZ just chose not to mention him in the inner chapters. Why should he refer to another man if he is writing his own Taoist book? TTC could have been his competition

Edited February 25, 2014 by Rara

[GOOWDAY]

Hi,all.So sorry,my english isn't good enough to reply soon.

Lao Dan 老聃 is real in the history,Confucius met him and learned from him.It is easy to get proofs form 《Chuang Tzu》/《 Liu's Commentaries of History 》（Lu Shi Chun Qiu）/《the book of rites》.Lao Dan 老聃 whose honourable name is Lao Tzu.

There is lots of contents of DaoDeJing were mentioned in the 《Chuang Tzu》,and some sentences same as DaoDeJing are found in 《Chuang Tzu》,they are clearly Lao Dan's said .

Some thoughts of Chuang Tzu are different from Lao Tzu/Lie tzu.

[Stosh]

Perhaps he was also the guy who travelled to Xizang , and was called Sun Tan !

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

Hi,all.So sorry,my english isn't good enough to reply soon.

Lao Dan 老聃 is real in the history,Confucius met him and learned from him.It is easy to get proofs form 《Chuang Tzu》/《 Liu's Commentaries of History 》（Lu Shi Chun Qiu）/《the book of rites》.Lao Dan 老聃 whose honourable name is Lao Tzu.

There is lots of contents of DaoDeJing were mentioned in the 《Chuang Tzu》,and some sentences same as DaoDeJing are found in 《Chuang Tzu》,they are clearly Lao Dan's said .

Some thoughts of Chuang Tzu are different from Lao Tzu/Lie tzu.

 

Exactly. There is an obvious symmetry of thoughts between Chuang Tzu and Lao Tzu. When I read the Chuang Tzu, many parts appear as extrapolations of key verses from the Tao Te Ching. That, to me, is all the proof necessary.

[ChiDragon]

 

Hi,all.So sorry,my english isn't good enough to reply soon.

Goowday...

Don't worry about the English. The hell with it. Let me give a sense of confidence just to get your point across. Some of the members speak good English but putting out garbage. Sometimes, one will attack the English rather than pay close attention to the contents. Sorry, people, I just need to spit it out of my system.

Edited February 25, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Goowday...

Don't worry about the English. The hell with it. Let me give a sense of confidence just to get your point across. Some of the members speak good English but putting out garbage. Sometimes, one will attack the English rather than pay close attention to the contents. Sorry, people, I just need to spit it out of my system.

Well, if I have ever said anything negative about your English (except regarding your translations of the TTC which you invited me to critique) I will confess to being a hypocrite.

 

I agree with ChiDragon. Goowday, please don't let your command of English bother you. Say what you have to say and if we don't understand we can always ask for clarification. I think your input in these threads would be of great value.

[Stosh]

 

Hi,all.So sorry,my english isn't good enough to reply soon.

Lao Dan 老聃 is real in the history,Confucius met him and learned from him.It is easy to get proofs form 《Chuang Tzu》/《 Liu's Commentaries of History 》（Lu Shi Chun Qiu）/《the book of rites》.Lao Dan 老聃 whose honourable name is Lao Tzu.

There is lots of contents of DaoDeJing were mentioned in the 《Chuang Tzu》,and some sentences same as DaoDeJing are found in 《Chuang Tzu》,they are clearly Lao Dan's said .

Some thoughts of Chuang Tzu are different from Lao Tzu/Lie tzu.

Chi Dragon is quite correct ,,

Racial heritage, and mother tongue should have no significant influence, the content of ones understanding should be paramount.

[dawei]

 

During that time two important wars was happened,One is Chu state vs Wei 魏 state in 343bc-340bc,

 

The war of Chu vs Wei involved with another taoist man Sun Bin whose honourable name is Sunzi of Qi.Normally this war doesn't look like a war,Because Chu state didn't send their army to fight with Wei state.But it did include all the elements of war,And it is the supreme art of the war, so call "the win without fighting",or " subdue the enemy without fighting" .

Ok, I looked back at the history and the best I can piece together is as follows:

In 354 BC, Wei started a large-scale attack on Zhao. By 353 BC, Zhao was losing and its capital, Handan, was under siege. The State of Qi intervened. The Qi decided to attack the Wei capital while the Wei army was tied up besieging Zhao. The strategy was a success; the Wei army hastily moved south to protect its capital, was caught on the road and decisively defeated at the Battle of Guiling. The battle is remembered in the second of the Thirty-Six Stratagems, "besiege Wei, save Zhao" meaning to attack a vulnerable spot to relieve pressure at another point.

 

In 341 BC, Wei attacked Han. Qi allowed Han to be nearly defeated and then intervened. In the following year Qin attacked the weakened Wei.

 

Finally, in 340, the threat to Wei became so severe that one of its great enemies, Chu, actually had to rush to its aid in order to avoid the destruction of Wei by Qi, which would have upset the balance of power disastrously.

 

---

 

Is this the Chu involvement to help save Wei, not actually fight them?

[Mark Saltveit]

ChiDragon:

 

Mark.....

Boy, aren't you confused and please don't confuse others.

 

Uh... what? I can't tell if you're joking or not.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, "the old master" could have been anyone. But when names are used we know that someones specific was being spoken of.

It should be a given that Lao Tzu, Lao Tan (Dan), Li Er, and even Boyang are the same one person.

 

ChiDragon:

Uh... what? I can't tell if you're joking or not.

 

Let me clarify something here.

Li Er(李耳) was Lao Zi's real name; 耳 means ear

 

Lao Dan(老聃) was his nickname; 聃means hang.

 

 

• 

Please notice his ears are so big and hanged. So, people gave him a nickname by calling him Lao Dan(老聃).

 

In modern time, 老(lao) was added in front of the surname to address someone as Lao Li for Lao Zi. For John Chang, it would be Lao Chang but would never call him Lao John.

 

Edited February 26, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Yep. And here I am called Marblehead. (Has nothing to do with my birth name.)

[Rara]

Yep. And here I am called Marblehead. (Has nothing to do with my birth name.)

Do have a shiny bald head? I always wondered!

[Marblehead]

Do have a shiny bald head? I always wondered!

Hehehe. No, I don't keep it bald or shiney. I do, however, when I shave my face (when the hairs start bothering me) I shave my head as well. So about once a month I am clean-shaven and a skinhead.

[Apech]

My version of Zhuangzi has Lao Tzu too and he is varified in footnotes.

 

As I said though, who wrote these chapters in comparisson to the first 7?

 

I doubt any of these met...just they are used as characters to argue the point of ZZ. Like "The Vinegar Tasters" painting. It isn't likely that Buddha, Lao Tzu and Confucious were all hanging out discussing their views!

 

 

I like to think they met up for a drink now and then.

[Rara]

Hehehe. No, I don't keep it bald or shiney. I do, however, when I shave my face (when the hairs start bothering me) I shave my head as well. So about once a month I am clean-shaven and a skinhead.

Sounds like clever maintenence. Leave it be, then when it annoys you, lose it!

 

Anyway, back to Zhuangzi!

[dawei]

 

Let me clarify something here.

Li Er(李耳) was Lao Zi's real name; 耳 means ear

 

Lao Dan(老聃) was his nickname; 聃means hang.

 

 

• 

Please notice his ears are so big and hanged. So, people gave him a nickname by calling him Lao Dan(老聃).

 

In modern time, 老(lao) was added in front of the surname to address someone as Lao Li for Lao Zi. For John Chang, it would be Lao Chang but would never call him Lao John.

 

 

Mark is pointing out a scholarly debate which reflects the idea that Lao Zi and Lao Dan are possibly two different people. If your unaware of such research then I can see why your trying to suggest he is confused... but I think he is stating an academic debated issue.

 

It has been established that ZZ and even Confucius refers to someone named as Lao Dan... and at times others refer to someone named as Lao Zi. There is much debate if in fact there are two people or not.

 

At least one source for those interested to read:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/laozi/

[ChiDragon]

Do have a shiny bald head? I always wondered!

 

No, only a HARD head........

[Marblehead]

 

No, only a HARD head........

And I must admit being proud of it. Hehehe.

[GOOWDAY]

.

 

 

I made a simple introduce to the situation of early warring states,Do you guys ask for clarification ?

403bc,At the beginning of warring states,The Three Jins( Wei Han Zhao 魏 韩 赵）usually fighting together,They took away many land from (Qin Chu Song Qi 秦 楚 宋 齐）,Wei state is the leader of three Jins.Yue state was in alliance with three Jins,This traditional relationship was kept to 334bc,The first target of the alliance is Chu state.

Wei states took many lands away from Qin and Chu, and became more powerful.

354bc-352bc,Wei was in allince with Han,They fighted with four states (Zhao Qin Chu Qi) in the same time,and still made the suceess.after that,Zhao was under controlled by Wei.

346bc,Wei was in allince with Han ,attacked Chu,the shangcai (上蔡) city and another city of Chu were took away by Wei.at the same time,according to lost article of Chuang Tzu, Chu was also under attacked by Yue.Chu was in very bad situation ,and couldn't fight back.

344bc,Wei state became the strongest state,King of Wei crowned himself as King of Xia kingdom（夏王），which mean the son of heaven.Wei state was in allince with Yue state, Yue state is second largest state at that time.

343bc-340bc, Chu state didin't send any army to attack Wei state,but Wei state became weak after a series of attack by other states,

334bc,Chu state fighted with Qi state.

333bc,Chu state was under attack by Yue state.

331bc,Chu state almost swallowed down Yue state.

.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, it took a lot of effort to finally consolidate the Chinese peoples into one nation. Not much different from most other nations. Every Lord wanted to be king of the world.

 

At one time in my life I had more interest in the historical development of nations but that interest is pretty much dead.

 

In reading The Chuang Tzu, it is sometimes difficult to tell if the stories used to present his concepts were historical events or just things he made up.

 

His stories, as with myths, surely contain some elements of truth.

[dawei]

I made a simple introduce to the situation of early warring states,Do you guys ask for clarification ?

 

I asked you a question here:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/33848-about-zhuangzi/?p=527117

[ChiDragon]

I asked you a question here:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/33848-about-zhuangzi/?p=527117

Yeah, the story about 圍魏救趙, attack Wei to save Zhao, which is one of the military strategies from the Art Of War.

Edited February 27, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Yeah, the story about 攻魏救趙, attack Wei to save Zhao, which is one of the military strategies from the Art Of War.

 

The OP mentioned Chu state vs Wei 魏 state in 343bc-340bc.

 

I included the Qi intervenes the Wei / Zhao issue as it is similar

 

but I am trying to confirm whether his comment on Chu-Wei is what I found:

 

Chu intervenes the Qi- Wei issue.

 

This might be said: "attack Qi to save Wei".

 

Maintaining a balance of power was a very useful strategy.

[ChiDragon]

Actually, 圍魏救趙 was something learned from the situation and added to the Art of War as a military strategy. During the period of the Warring States, it was a matter of survival, by using military strategy, rather than a balance of power.