about Zhuangzi

[GOOWDAY]

about Zhuangzi

When I studied Taoist thoughts,I researched some books of pre-qin and some lost articles of Zhuangzi ,Then I found that Zhuang zhou was working in the Chu 楚 state over 13 years,It's most likely from 346bc to 332bc,Zhuang zhou was working as a officer name Da Gong 大公 ,Which job is responsbility for collectting people's words and views in the states.

During that time two important wars was happened,One is Chu state vs Wei 魏 state in 343bc-340bc,The other one is Chu state vs Yue 越 state in 334bc-340bc,Both of them are Taoist style war,Two wars made a lot of effects to the waring states.

The war of Chu vs Wei involved with another taoist man Sun Bin whose honourable name is Sunzi of Qi.Normally this war doesn't look like a war,Because Chu state didn't send their army to fight with Wei state.But it did include all the elements of war,And it is the supreme art of the war, so call "the win without fighting",or " subdue the enemy without fighting" .

The anther war of Chu vs Yue was between 334bc-331bc,With "the use of useless",Zhuang zhou helped king wei of Chu 楚威王 defeaded the king of Yue and taken away most of land from Yue state .

The book of Zhuangzi recoded this two wars in an eerie way,Zhuang zhou involved both of this two wars.

I just finished writing a book about the war of Chu vs Wei in chinese and in taoist style, It's crazy.

What do you think about Zhuangzi?

[Marblehead]

It should be a given that I hold him (his writtings) in high regard. I have done a little research on the person but nothing serious.

 

He didn't say many nice things about government and I assume he likely took early retirement from government service.

[GOOWDAY]

Hi,Marblehead.

Yes,Though king Wei of Chu want him to be primer minister of the biggest state in ancient asia at that time,Zhuang zhou choiced to retire early.

On the basis of your intuitive understanding of the book of Zhuangzi,Which paragraph or section he might be talking about war?

It is no need to respond fast,Just think about it.hehe..

 

Edited February 22, 2014 by GOOWDAY

[Marblehead]

Ha! One story popped into my mind immediately. I will go now and find to present the story.

[Mark Saltveit]

I would love to hear more about what a Taoist sort of war is.

 

in my opinion, World War 2 was the most Taoist war for the United States. Because we were relucant to fight, pacifist even or at least isolationist, until the situation made clear that we had to fight. Then, we focused the entire nation on the war and overwhelmed our enemies.

The only problem is that afterwards, we did not return to our natural isolationist position, which you can see the American public is embracing today. The Soviet Union became the new enemy and the mobilization turned into the Military Industrial Complex, as war hero general and president Eisenhower said.

[Marblehead]

Section TWENTY-EIGHT - GIVING AWAY A THRONE (Burton Watson translation)

 

When King Chao of Ch'u was driven from his state, the sheep butcher Yueh fled at the same time and followed King Chao into exile. When King Chao regained control of the state, he set about rewarding his followers, but when it came the turn of the sheep butcher Yueh, Yueh said, "His Majesty lost control of the state, and I lost my job as sheep butcher. Now His Majesty has regained the state, and I have also gotten back my sheep-butchering job. So my `title and stipend' have already been restored to me. Why should there be any talk of a reward?"

 

"Force him to take it!" ordered the king.

 

But the sheep butcher Yueh said, "The fact that His Majesty lost the kingdom was no fault of mine - therefore I would not venture to accept any punishment for it. And the fact that His Majesty has regained the kingdom is no accomplishment of mine - therefore I would not venture to accept any reward for it."

 

"Bring him into my presence!" ordered the king.

 

But the sheep butcher Yueh said, "According to the laws of the state of Ch'u, a man must have received weighty awards and accomplished great deeds before he may be granted an audience with the ruler. Now I was not wise enough to save the state, nor brave enough to die in combat with the invaders. When the armies of Wu entered the city of Ying, I was afraid of the dangers ahead and so I ran away from the invaders. I did not purposely follow after His Majesty. Now His Majesty wishes to disregard the laws and break the precedents by granting me an audience. But, in view of the facts, that would not win me any kind of reputation in the world!"

 

The king said to Tzu-ch'i, his minister of war, "The sheep butcher Yueh is a man of mean and humble position, and yet his pronouncements on righteousness are lofty indeed! I want you to promote him to one of the `three banner' offices."

 

When told of this, the sheep butcher Yueh said, "I am fully aware that the `three banner' rank is a far more exalted place than a sheep butcher's stall, and that a stipend of ten thousand chung is more wealth than I will ever acquire slaughtering sheep. But how could I, merely out of greed for title and stipend, allow my ruler to gain a reputation for irresponsibly handing out such favors? I dare not accept. Please let me go back to my sheep butcher's stall." And in the end he refused to accept the position.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

There is another story I recalled upon searching for the above. It is in:

 

Section THIRTY - DISCOURSING ON SWORDS

 

This is the story of Chuang Tzu presenting himeslf as a swordsman.

[Marblehead]

I would love to hear more about what a Taoist sort of war is.

Hi Mark,

 

My first thought was, "Read "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu." But that would not have been a fair response to your post.

 

I wouldn't even consider WWII as a valid example because the British and American governments set the stage for getting us involved in that war. The American and British governments knew that the Japanese were headed for Pearl Harbor and the governments allowed it to happen so that we could be drawn into the war.

 

But let's see if Goowday wants to go to a discussion of how a Taoist would conduct a war.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Marblehead

[Mark Saltveit]

Thanks, Marbled One. it's a bit controversial to call Sun Tzu Daoist; I've seen highly respected people take both sides. Fair to say it comes out of the same cultural seedbed but isn't classically Daoist in the way that the DDJ and Zhuangzi are.Certainly the Daoist classics are yet more skeptical of battle than the Sun Tzu.

 

I think the most Daoist part of it is a quote I vaguely remember that "the best way to win a war is to convince your opponent that you're not enemies in the first place."

[GOOWDAY]

.

以道佐人主 不以兵强于天下 其事好还

师之所居 楚棘生之 善者果而已矣 不以取强焉

果而勿娇 果而勿矜 果而勿伐 果而不得已 居是 谓果而不强

物壮则老 谓之不道 不道蚤已

--- Taodejing

The Cold War in the end,It finished without pride,without hero,without fighting last,But it had to,It is taoist style.

Sun bin 孙膑 whose honourable name is Sunzi of Qi state 齐孙子,He is taoist.His book Sun Bin Military Method 孙膑兵法 include lot of taoist thoughts，There are taoist thoghts show in the battle he planed.At the Battle of Maling 马陵之战,after Killed large number enemy at very little

cost,Sun bin and his friend general Tian ji 田忌 were treated as not the heros but the traitors.

Marblehead,Wrong answer.hehe..

.

Edited February 24, 2014 by GOOWDAY

[Mark Saltveit]

Thanks! I hadn't thought of the Cold War as a Daoist war, but that makes a lot of sense. May I quote you on that?

[Marblehead]

Marblehead,Wrong answer.hehe...

Ha! Wrong answer for you maybe but not for me.

[ChiDragon]

I would love to hear more about what a Taoist sort of war is.

 

in my opinion, World War 2 was the most Taoist war for the United States. Because we were relucant to fight, pacifist even or at least isolationist, until the situation made clear that we had to fight. Then, we focused the entire nation on the war and overwhelmed our enemies.

 

The United States is no longer fighting a Taoist war since the atomic bomb was dropped.

 

BTW The art of war was written in accordance with the principles in the Tao Te Ching. The word "war" in the "art of war" may sound very offensive without a thorough study about its contents. Actually, the art of war is very defensive. If we make a comparison, we will see its principles are in parallel with the Tao Te Ching.

Edited November 4, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

BTW The art of war was written in accordance with the principles in to Tao Te Ching. The word "war" in the "art of war" may sound very offensive without a thorough study about its contents. Actually, the art of war is very defensive. If we make a comparison, we will see its principles are in parallel with the Tao Te Ching.

Agreed. And this, as well as other thoughts, is what caused me to hold to this warriors creed: I will help you if I can; I will kill you if I must.

 

Note that the killing is a last resort. The Three Treasures dictate the helping.

 

And I will also agree that "The Art of War" is a defensive strategy even though at times it can appear to be an offensive strategy. The offensive aspect of it is the result of having no other viable choice.

[ChiDragon]

The offensive aspect of it is the result of having no other viable choice.

Yes, a war is always inevitable, then the most defensive system is the most offensive. It all depends who make the first move which will be the aggressor.

[GOOWDAY]

Thanks! I hadn't thought of the Cold War as a Daoist war, but that makes a lot of sense. May I quote you on that?

 

Hi Mark,You are welcome.

 

 

Hi,ChiDragon Marblehead.

About the war,I like Zhuangzi's said:

Sage consider necessary as unnecessary,so there is not war;Most of people consider unnecessary as necessary ,so there are more wars.follows the idea of war, so most of actions will ask for war,Depends on the war will lead to die out.

（Zhuangzi Lie Yu-kou）

聖人以必不必，故無兵；眾人以不必必之，故多兵。順於兵，故行有求,兵，恃之則亡。

。

Edited February 23, 2014 by GOOWDAY

[Marblehead]

 

About the war,I like Zhuangzi's said:

Sage consider necessary as unnecessary,so there is not war;Most of people consider unnecessary as necessary ,so there are more wars.follows the idea of war, so most of actions will ask for war,Depends on the war will lead to die out.

（Zhuangzi Lie Yu-kou）

Yes. I recall that (from a translation).

 

The easiest way to get rid of someone you think wants to kill you is to kill them first. Most animals on the planet go into a defensive mode and then run away when they get the chance. Other, humans included, feel it is better to go on the offensive and remove the threat.

 

But there have been times when disagreements have been settled with discussion. This proves it can be done and that wars are not really necessary. But if we cannot discuss and make concessions then there will be wars.

[ChiDragon]

聖人以必不必，故無兵；
眾人以不必必之，故多兵。
順於兵，故行有求.
兵，恃之則亡。

Sage consider a necessity as unnecessary, thus no military action.
The majority consider the inessential as essential, therefore, there will be more abusive military action.
One who misuse of military power, then there are demands need to be met.
Military action, who insist upon it will lead to self destruction.

Edited February 24, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

 

Then I found that Zhuang zhou was working in the Chu 楚 state over 13 years,It's most likely from 346bc to 332bc,

Maybe another thread... but how do you see ZZ knowledge of Laozi (from Chu)? It would seem he could not know of him.

 

During that time two important wars was happened,One is Chu state vs Wei 魏 state in 343bc-340bc,The other one is Chu state vs Yue 越 state in 334bc-340bc,Both of them are Taoist style war,Two wars made a lot of effects to the waring states.

The war of Chu vs Wei involved with another taoist man Sun Bin whose honourable name is Sunzi of Qi.Normally this war doesn't look like a war,Because Chu state didn't send their army to fight with Wei state.But it did include all the elements of war,And it is the supreme art of the war, so call "the win without fighting",or " subdue the enemy without fighting" .

The anther war of Chu vs Yue was between 334bc-331bc,With "the use of useless",Zhuang zhou helped king wei of Chu 楚威王 defeaded the king of Yue and taken away most of land from Yue state .

Interesting... I read up a lot on warring state period in the past... I want to go back and read up on this. thanks.

[GOOWDAY]

to ChiDragon, There is another versions,you might be interest in.

聖人以必不必，故無兵；眾人以不必必之，故多兵。慎於兵，故行有求,兵，恃之則亡。

Sage consider necessary as unnecessary,so there is not war;Most of people consider unnecessary as necessary ,so there are more wars.Be cautious of the war, then the action will have prerequisites,the war,depends on it will lead to die out.

to Dawei,

Yes,ZZ knowledge of Laozi is big topic,What made you think he could not know of Laozi?

[ChiDragon]

 

to ChiDragon, There is another versions,you might be interest in.

聖人以必不必，故無兵；眾人以不必必之，故多兵。慎於兵，故行有求,兵，恃之則亡。

Sage consider necessary as unnecessary,so there is not war;Most of people consider unnecessary as necessary ,so there are more wars.Be cautious of the war, then the action will have prerequisites,the war,depends on it will lead to die out.

 

Yes, I had read it in the post above.

Edited February 24, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Rara]

I saw a documentary where Sun Tzu was hired to fight a war, but was asked by the king to prove his ability first. He was to train the king's daughters to fight, as they had never known anything other than a life of luxury and the king realised it would be an impossible task.

 

Sun Tzu began giving instructions and the girls just giggled. So, understanding that if he didn't get results first time, there must be something wrong with his instructions, he sliced one of their heads clean off with a sword. Now they took him seriously and trained.

 

Seems quite brutal...not very Taoist. But pretty smart and he had to do his job. So very Taoist. But why would a Taoist become a war strategist in the first place? Maybe this is just a myth, I'm not sure...

 

As for Zhuangzi, I really like the book. So elaborate, entertaining and very thought provoking. It confused me a lot because at first, I wasn't sure if he was being self-contradicting or not in places or not. Maybe he was...as to make the point that he has all the answers. And there are many...especially the ones he hadn't spoken about!

Edited February 24, 2014 by Rara

[ChiDragon]

Rara....
I know you have locked in your head that a Taoist do not kill. Why do they learn martial arts and practice with the swords and sabre?

There are situations where they can apply the Taoist principles in major cases; and sometimes can't. Nothing is perfect you know?

Edited February 24, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Maybe he was...as to make the point that he has all the answers. And there are many...especially the ones he hadn't spoken about!

I think it is important, the places where he did not offer an answer. Perhaps a technique to cause us to think for ourselves?

[dawei]

 

to Dawei,

Yes,ZZ knowledge of Laozi is big topic,What made you think he could not know of Laozi?

 

Once in a while I hear people say as such... Marblehead said it in another thread recently.

 

I find it hard to accept that ZZ did not know of LZ.

 

have you written on their relationship?