Rooting?

[gendao]

Rooting is a foundational skill in the Chinese energy arts. The ability to stand there and become an "immovable" object when pushed on. This is a good litmus test for your structural alignment and ability to energetically connect with the earth.

 

I've now felt this with 2 Taijiquan and a Yiquan player. One of the Taijiquan players having been largely self-taught for only 2 years..

 

And yet, I still can't figure it out yet! Their ability to withstand extreme force just standing there almost seems to defy physics...or at least common sense.

 

- Is it biomechanics? Perhaps some, but most appeared to hold a pretty casual, neutral posture without any noticeable contortions.

 

- Is it tendon strength? Maybe some, but again they often seemed fairly relaxed and not twisted up. I mean, I could feel some force being expended when they were holding "unbendable arms," but sometimes I was only pushing on their shoulders, not forearms.

 

- Is it qi? How much of this rooting is "simply" qi and yi?

 

Can anyone here really root? And I mean, actually possess the skill...not just move hot air about it? If so, could anyone post a vid demoing this?

I know this is not a "super high level" skill...but it is a significant and foundational one that I have nonetheless not seen very often and I am really trying to acquire. Help?!

[thelerner]

We did a lot of rooting work in Ki Aikido. There were 5 levels of pushing. Simple push, push w/ follow through, pushing up and over, etc.

 

I was okay at it, the brown belt ki ranking included standing on one leg w/ a hand held out as people pushed against it. The trick wasn't just resisting the push, it was keeping balance when the push stopped. We did the standard games, having many people push against you standing and sitting. There are tricks to those though. They may or may not show deep rooting. Being pushed by 2 is harder then 1, 3 is about the same as 2, as you add more it gets easier because they're unbalanced and uncoordinated. Holding against a dozen people is showmanship.

 

My instructor, John Eley 5th degree (then) really had IT. Instinctive deep rooting. Really phenomenal.

 

More to write but dinner being served.

 

 

Michael

[gendao]

standing on one leg w/ a hand held out as people pushed against it.

 

My instructor, John Eley 5th degree (then) really had IT. Instinctive deep rooting. Really phenomenal.

Holding your arm straight out in front is really just a physics trick that changes the applied force from an overturning force into more of a horizontal shear force (which is easier to resist). And sticking one foot in front actually helps by shifting your CG forward, adding to this effect. So, I don't consider this a good test for rooting.

 

A real test for rooting would be if you could stand with your feet together (or maybe one slightly back) and resist getting pushed from the front at your shoulders. I've felt this before and it is really weird - and does not seem to make much sense physics-wise.

 

Sounds like Eley had some real rooting. "IT..."

 

And IT is what I'm desperately trying to get!

Edited July 17, 2007 by vortex

[Cameron]

Rooting practice is fun. I have no idea what level I am. Sometimes I have coworkers or friends push me for fun. The people I know who are really strong in this it's literally like pushing against a tree or something.

 

I am guessing the secret then is to become as much like a tree as you can. Hence all the standing like a tree practice in IMA.

 

From what I here of people like Kenny Gong or O'Sensei if you tried to push or move them would be just like trying to move a wall.

[Wayfarer64]

The rooting aspect of the horse stance used as a basic of Hung Gar is well known... I have found it to be very useful and most folks who have studied any ShaoLin should have a "firm" stance to begin with. Isn't stance work, that includes a "rooting" aspect a prerequisit of most martial arts?

[gendao]

Sometimes I have coworkers or friends push me for fun. The people I know who are really strong in this it's literally like pushing against a tree or something.

Mind shooting and posting a demo vid? I'd like to see this..

 

Wayfarer64 - yes, it is a foundational skill. However, that doesn't mean that most martial artists possess it. In fact, most don't. And I'm talking about being able to hold a strong stance without having to hunker down. The ones I met could do it standing straight up or in a slight bow & arrow stance.

[dwai]

A real test for rooting would be if you could stand with your feet together (or maybe one slightly back) and resist getting pushed from the front at your shoulders. I've felt this before and it is really weird - and does not seem to make much sense physics-wise.

 

I've heard anecdotes of Master Liao doing rooting while sitting in a standard office chair (with rollers/wheels) and being pushed by different people. They were all unsuccessful in even budging the chair.

 

One question that comes up is this -- When we are Chi practitioners, why this aversion to accepting the phenomenon of Chi?

 

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. I can feel a palpable energy while doing Tai Chi practice and have felt the Chi being projected by my teacher in a push-hands session. It felt like a very dense electric shock and the hand felt like it was a hugely dense object that simply absorbs all the force exerted -- it wasn't imagined -- it was very real sensation.

[gendao]

I've heard anecdotes of Master Liao doing rooting while sitting in a standard office chair (with rollers/wheels) and being pushed by different people. They were all unsuccessful in even budging the chair.

 

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Waysun Liao?

 

Well, that's just IT. Being able to root in a wheely chair would seem to rule out biomechanical factors...which would then strongly imply that something else (like qi) is the main force at play there.

 

And THAT is exactly the pudding I am after... Some real-world feedback and SOLID PROOF.

 

To me, this would be a concrete measure to myself that I have achieved something - and it's not just all in my head. Which I think is a very easy trap to fall into in the metaphysical arts. Just ask DarinHamel...

 

So, less talk, and more action please. Many of us here can talk about it, but how many of us can actually DO IT?

[dwai]

Waysun Liao?

 

Well, that's just IT. Being able to root in a wheely chair would seem to rule out biomechanical factors...which would then strongly imply that something else (like qi) is the main force at play there.

 

And THAT is exactly the pudding I am after... Some real-world feedback and SOLID PROOF.

 

To me, this would be a concrete measure to myself that I have achieved something - and it's not just all in my head. Which I think is a very easy trap to fall into in the metaphysical arts. Just ask DarinHamel...

 

So, less talk, and more action please. Many of us here can talk about it, but how many of us can actually DO IT?

 

The problem is paradoxical. If you don't believe it, can you ever get to stage where you can do it?

 

I guess it's a matter of patience -- in my limited practice I've seen if I dwell on phenomenological aspects of things, I lose them for days to come (don't dwell on the effects, just do the action).

 

I've been spending quite some time trying to understand the conflict (if any) between Science and the Esoteric practices such as Yoga and Tai Chi. Here's a little article I'd written --

 

The Battle between Science and Yoga

 

It deals with a related topic and the problem with Scientific Inquiry as we generally know it. Hard Science is too fixated with it's Materialist ideology, to the point of complete rigidity.

Edited July 18, 2007 by dwai

[Cameron]

Mind shooting and posting a demo vid? I'd like to see this..

 

Wayfarer64 - yes, it is a foundational skill. However, that doesn't mean that most martial artists possess it. In fact, most don't. And I'm talking about being able to hold a strong stance without having to hunker down. The ones I met could do it standing straight up or in a slight bow & arrow stance.

 

Maybe in the future some time

 

Actually I was just asking Yoda on the phone about uploading videos to Youtube..sounds pretty simple..I might do that in the future if I feel there are things worth filming.

[thelerner]

The unbendable arm is basically an example of relaxed extension, the sort of stuff all good dancers and gymnasts do. The brown belt test wasn't unbendable arm, the person was trying push you over while you were on one leg, pushing against your outstretched arm.

 

One thing that helped my fudoshin was cheating. Then cheating less and less. What I mean is- when pushed I'd follow the 'rules' of ki-aikido, being relaxed, good extension, feeling my center etc. When that wouldn't work I'd drop my center as they tested, ie bend my knees as they pushed. As time went by I'd bend them less and less until it was more of a mental thing.

 

Pretending I was touching the elbows of those who were pushing also helped. (Ofcourse not pretending and lightly touching a persons elbows disrupts the power of their push) Here's an interesting example of the use of pretending in unusual rooting. You stand regularly, someone comes to your side, grabs your arm w/ two hands and pulls you towards them and down. Its a very hard thing to resist. Everyone in class would fail it.

 

My sensei said, imagine the person grabbing your arm is falling off a cliff. Stay relaxed, bend at the elbow and save them. Suddenly most of us could do it, effortlessly.

 

One of the tricks of holding back several pushers is short circuiting the first one. If you take up slack on them as they make contact (move forward half an inch or so as they first touch) people tend to bounce off you. It takes good timing but it has an amazing effect.

 

For me these were tricks I'd do. The higher levels didn't use them or they were so ingrained that they just happened.

 

Vortex, if there's a Ki-Aikido (Shin shin toitsu ki aikido) club anywhere near you check it. Particularly the weekly ki-class. They're all about experimenting w/ rooting and extension. A first (try me) class should be free and hands on.

 

 

Michael

[Taomeow]

Last year I was at a party where the host, a high-level taiji player, got methodically and seriously drunk and invited everybody to push him over while he was standing on one leg sipping his brandy. Everybody tried, no one succeeded. He was like an unmovable mountain, even the brandy in his glass didn't move except down his gullet!

 

The same guy, a year later, lost a battle to a picture on the wall. He was expecting an important, and disturbing in its nature, phone call. The phone rang; it was a cordless which he usually keeps downstairs while the base sits upstairs in the bedroom, but this time, for some reason, as it kept ringing, the guy couldn't find it downstairs, started rushing, and eventually rushed upstairs in great hurry thinking it's there, on the base. As he was running up the stairs, the phone stopped ringing. He turned around in great frustration and, being a big guy, smashed his shoulder into a glass-framed picture on the wall over the staircase. The picture started falling; he threw himself after it to grab it and prevent from breaking, and momentarily forgot all about his feet, one of which missed a stair. He tumbled down the stairs and landed on that unfortunate foot with all his weight, clutching the intact, and now deeply hated, picture in his hands. The whole episode is interesting in that the root appears to be largely non-physical, and the worry over that disturbing phone call "uprooted" a physically formidable person enough to temporarily cancel his skill.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Taomeow

[Christoph]

its all biomechanics IMO...let me walk up and put my hip against your hip,not my hand on your shoulder,...you WILL move

[Spectrum]

its all biomechanics IMO...let me walk up and put my hip against your hip,not my hand on your shoulder,...you WILL move

 

Depends on the angle friend. First off would the hip push be linear? Or would you approach from along an arc?

 

If someone yeilds to your will to move them you may end up on your.... Imposing your will on someones peaceful sphere can be a dangerous affair.

 

So what kinda video do we want? Someone redirecting linear force from pushes without any major external postural adjustments?

 

I'll look through my notebook for exercises that Sei Gung gave us to practice for rooting... interesting thread.

 

Looking,

 

Spectrum

 

PS -

 

The trick wasn't just resisting the push, it was keeping balance when the push stopped.

 

I remember this one:

 

From WuJi have someone push from the front slowly from soft to hard. Sink, root and redirect the energy. Have your partner SUDDENLY release, you should not fall forward.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Spectrum

[gendao]

Last year I was at a party where the host, a high-level taiji player, got methodically and seriously drunk and invited everybody to push him over while he was standing on one leg sipping his brandy. Everybody tried, no one succeeded. He was like an unmovable mountain, even the brandy in his glass didn't move except down his gullet!

Yes, see this would seem to not be biomechanical. I mean, how much biomechanical leverage can you have standing on just one leg without moving around much?

 

Joel "Chihand" (known in JKD circles) told me it's mostly about using your hip structure by tilting your tailbone forward and mental focus.

 

Fong Ha (Yiquan) said it's about maintaining your equilibrium.

 

Yet still, I can't get it...

So what kinda video do we want? Someone redirecting linear force from pushes without any major external postural adjustments?

Yes, I don't want to see someone "redirecting" the force in a push-hands demo. While that is a great skill in its own right - I want to see pure rooting skill here - not sensitivity and redirection.

 

I'm talking about assuming a posture with as little biomechanical advantage as possible (like wuji) and having someone push on you using as much biomechanical advantage as they can muster (deep bow & arrow stance or whatever). And preferably being pushed directly on the body instead of through extended arms. Then taking that full force head-on - without moving.

 

Let's take a step away from all the over-intellectualism and get down to brass tacks, people! Maybe this should be some type of challenge for us. Sort of like the Tsung Hwa Memorial DANTIAN CHALLENGE (btw, can anyone do this?).

[Neijia]

We practice developing root in a stance very similiar to an extremely narrow San-Ti, though we go through all of our Bagua and Taiji testing each stance.

 

The energy redistribution only really comes about with complete relaxation, ie., rounding of the back, creating the bows, pinching of the gua , and resting on the balls of the feet.

 

Strangest thing at first.

You're not really rooted if you're leaning... suddenly changing the force should have no impact (leaning would create a stagger/lurch).

 

It's quite a bit like how proper fa jin is really about sensitivity and relaxation, not force. As a side note, it's amazing to me in the way that they are so closely related. Anyway, with rooting, any muscular tension becomes the fulcrum by which your ass will be uprooted.

Edited July 21, 2007 by Neijia

[Spectrum]

I want to see pure rooting skill here - not sensitivity and redirection.

 

Rooting skill that isn't sensitivity and redirection?

 

I'm talking about assuming a posture with as little biomechanical advantage as possible (like wuji) and having someone push on you using as much biomechanical advantage as they can muster (deep bow & arrow stance or whatever). And preferably being pushed directly on the body instead of through extended arms. Then taking that full force head-on - without moving.

 

It might not seem like it but whoever can do this moves, even if internally. It's easy to let a lingual understanding of reality obstruct what we believe we can do physically.

[gendao]

The energy redistribution only really comes about with complete relaxation, ie., rounding of the back, creating the bows, pinching of the gua , and resting on the balls of the feet.

 

Strangest thing at first.

You're not really rooted if you're leaning... suddenly changing the force should have no impact (leaning would create a stagger/lurch).

 

It's quite a bit like how proper fa jin is really about sensitivity and relaxation, not force. As a side note, it's amazing to me in the way that they are so closely related. Anyway, with rooting, any muscular tension becomes the fulcrum by which your ass will be uprooted.

Interesting, what exactly do you mean by pinching of the gua?

 

And yes, Fong Ha says to never lean...

 

Also, so you rest on the balls of your feet, eh? Like in Aikido? I guess cuz that gives you more room to absorb force (as opposed to backed up on your heels)?

 

I agree that tensing up anywhere creates a "handle" or fulcrum that can be used to move you. Whereas relaxing would make you more like a water balloon - and harder to move. In theory at least...as I still can't do this in practice. When I relax, I just end up getting pushed back as well...

 

Spectrum - agreed that my underlying assumptions here may be wrong. Again, I don't know and am trying to figure it out still! But, let's say you are in a static standing posture and some guy is pushing on your shoulders. Many rooted people can still resist that push, even without obviously "moving" (unless it's micromovements inside).

 

Again, this is probably best explainned in person via feeling, and next with video...and only lastly through text. Which is why I am looking for actual video demos of this. It's easy to talk about, but far harder to DO.

Edited July 21, 2007 by vortex

[Taomeow]

There's marked leaning in Wu style, coupled with the deepest root of them all.

 

There's no ball-of-foot stance in Chen style, we use the whole foot.

 

So it isn't that...

 

What "pinching the gua" means I don't know, it's a term I've never heard. I know how to "open" and "close" it, and this is indeed crucial.

 

Personally, I work on rooting via the use of Wuxing and bagua -- you're dealing with thirteen phases of qi altogether and need to know them intimately so as to master them. You learn to discern the inherent, proprietary direction and quality of each incoming force, i.e. the phase of its qi. Earth rotates, Water flows down, Fire ascends, Metal contracts, Wood expands. Throw in the bagua directions and you have your Northeast Fire ascending force, e.g, which you counteract with Water from Southwest...

[Spectrum]

Probably a reference to opening the kua and then pulling the lower bow in and up w/ intention. Some rooting exercises have practitioners push the feet in all 8 combinations / directions.

[Neijia]

Could have explained that better - pinching not being a technical term.

Essentially, closing the kua and pinching the hips in to allow force to circulate down, relieving any acculumating tension/force in the lower back.

[Mike Rambling]

Rooting practice is fun.

 

Ahem. Best not to say that to an Aussie. It means something quite different down under.

[thelerner]

From my perspective which is mostly Aikido, when you're rooting well the harder a person pushes the more stable you get. By properly relaxing and with proper alignment the force of the push settles down and it feels like it forms a natural wedge, no leaning required.

 

I think good rooting is mostly biomechanical. Not a use of mystical power. But it is amazing how imagination and extension trigger the proper mechanics. Take something as simple as the unbendable arm, ie arm out someone uses two arms to bend it. For beginners without imagining the outflow of water from their fingers or trying to grab something just out of reach, it doesn't work well.

 

Until you've spent years on the mat I find that true of the harder stunts as well. If I'm on a wheel chair and someone pushes me, no amount of imagining forces without and within would keep me from being pushed. I don't think it works that way. But, I could meet the pushers hands redirect his push right, left or down. I could be trickier and roll on my spinal axis just before he made contact. Then one hands receives 50 or 60 #'s of force the other an unexpected give. That sets up the 'missed stair' syndrome that a dynamic imbalance.

 

 

Michael

[Trunk]

- Is it biomechanics? ..

 

- Is it tendon strength? ..

Heaven & earth integration through the spectrum of connective tissue (fascia, tendon, ligament, marrow).

[rain]

Heaven & earth integration through the spectrum of connective tissue (fascia, tendon, ligament, marrow).

 

 

This sounds right.

Can you describe how you came to this realisation?