Does Zhuang Zi know about the Tao Te Ching?

[ChiDragon]

There was nothing written to indicate that Zhuang Zi had, actually, read the Tao Te Ching. However, we may find out from comments of the native scholars.

　庄周的思想，是以老子為依歸。但《老子》的中心，是闡述自然無為的政治哲學，《庄子》的中心，則是探求個人在沉重黑暗的社會中，如何實現自我解脫和自我保全的方法。在作者看來，最理想的社會是上古的混沌狀態，一切人為的制度和文化措施都違逆人的天性，因而是毫無價值的。

Translation:
The thinking of Zhuang Zhou(庄周) was referred back to Lao Zi(老子). The central part of Lao Zi Classic was based on the political philosophy of 自然無為(natural and wu wei). In the Zhuang Zi Classic was to explore and discover oneself within a deep dark society; and how to extricate oneself and self survival in an adverse environment. The author reckon that a primordial chaotic state is an ideal society. All the man made systems and cultural measures are violating the natural instinct of humans. Hence, it was meaningless and valueless.


Ref: http://www.people.com.cn/BIG5/14738/14760/21871/2936807.html

 

[Marblehead]

But ChiDragon,

 

Hehehe. I knew I would be here.

 

The comments you just presented would actually pit Chuang Tzu against Lao Tzu except to the concept of naturalness and wu wei.

 

Lao Tzu supported government. At least two-thirds of the TTC concerns itself with telling the rulers and would-be rulers how to rule the people.

 

Chuang Tzu, on the other hand, while admitting that government was needed, would have nothing to do with it.

 

And yes, Lao Tzu was a conformist while Chuang Tzu was an anarchist.

[ChiDragon]

But ChiDragon,

 

Hehehe. I knew I would be here.

 

The comments you just presented would actually pit Chuang Tzu against Lao Tzu except to the concept of naturalness and wu wei.

 

Lao Tzu supported government. At least two-thirds of the TTC concerns itself with telling the rulers and would-be rulers how to rule the people.

 

Chuang Tzu, on the other hand, while admitting that government was needed, would have nothing to do with it.

 

And yes, Lao Tzu was a conformist while Chuang Tzu was an anarchist.

 

Well, if you put it that way. Actually, both are trying to deal with the government one way or the other. Lao Zi wants to improve it while Zhuang Zi tried to run away from it all. Another words, Lao Zi want the government to take the initiative to give freedom to the people. However, Zhuang Zi wants to free himself from the government on his own. He is not against the government but just want to have nothing to do with it to save all the headaches.

[Marblehead]

Okay. Valid response, I think.

 

But still, from what you quoted, the comments were that Lao Tzu "... was based on political philosophy ..." whereas Chuang Tzu was "... to explore and discover oneself ..."

 

But then, I have to point out that "the uncarved block" and "wu wei" are central to both's philosophy.

[ChiDragon]

Okay. Valid response, I think.

 

But still, from what you quoted, the comments were that Lao Tzu "... was based on political philosophy ..." whereas Chuang Tzu was "... to explore and discover oneself ..."

 

But then, I have to point out that "the uncarved block" and "wu wei" are central to both's philosophy.

Exactly, they are just going in the opposite direction. It works for both. However, I have to give the credit to Lao Zi because he was born way before Zhuang Zi. Somehow, Zhuang Zi has to be stolen the idea from Lao Zi in order to apply the concept on himself.

Edited February 24, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

However, I have to give the credit to Lao Zi because he was born way before Zhuang Zi. Somehow, Zhuang Zi has to be stolen the idea from Lao Zi in order to apply the concept on himself.

Valid point.

 

But still, the first known written, partial document, right now, of the TTC is the Guodian. (I remain open here for correction.) The tomb they were found in was sealed in 168 BC. Chuang Tzu's life is from 369 BC to 286 BC. So the question would be, were there written versions of the TTC available during his lifetime?

[ChiDragon]

Valid point.

 

But still, the first known written, partial document, right now, of the TTC is the Guodian. (I remain open here for correction.) The tomb they were found in was sealed in 168 BC. Chuang Tzu's life is from 369 BC to 286 BC. So the question would be, were there written versions of the TTC available during his lifetime?

Yes, there were many codex of the Tao Te Ching with errors before the Guodian version. Some of the errors were corrected based from the unearth copies of Guodian and MWD. Even these versions have lots of errors by use phonetics to replace the actual characters at the time. Btw, the unearth copies were still not the original of the Tao Te Ching. They were codex just like the rest of the existing ones.

 

If they were not written, then it would be recitals passed on by the word of mouth. If people decided to write it down, some characters may be just phonetics which why we are seeing so many errors and the original meanings of some phrases were twisted.

Edited February 24, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I will accept that for the time being. I might change my mind though.

[Mark Saltveit]

Actually the Mawangdui silks were 168 BCE, Guodian goes back to 300 BCE.

 

An excellent source for the latest scholarly findings on these subjects is the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, which is free and online:

 

Zhuangzi: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/zhuangzi/

 

Laozi http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/laozi/

[ChiDragon]

Marblehead...
This one is not in Korean. Next time you do your own homework....!!!

Confucius meets Lao Zi

[dawei]

Lao Tzu supported government. At least two-thirds of the TTC concerns itself with telling the rulers and would-be rulers how to rule the people.

 

From the Introduction to

 

The Old Master: A Syncretic Reading of the Laozi from the Mawangdui Text A

by Hongkyung Kim

 

For example, I assert that Laozi should be recognized as a syncretic text before being labeled as a Daoist one, that it must have been completed sometime between 286 bce and the time when Text A was written, and that Laozi was compiled in the Qin, which many have viewed as typical of Legalist states. Also, I see Laozi as basically a political text, fitting to answer the prevailing question among intellectuals when it was completed, “How does one rule?”

Robert Henricks has summarized the philosophical tendency among all the passages in the Guodian documents: the frequently discussed concepts in the Guodian documents are no-action, no-commitment, simplicity (“uncarved wood”), and self-sufficiency; only one of nine chapters appears that discuss the metaphysics of the Way; all sentences related to the metaphysical concept “One” are omitted; only one of six chapters appears that discuss the Way of heaven; chapters after chapter 66 do not appear; passages articulating the symbolism of infants and babies are missing; and passages uttering the symbolism of water and female rarely occur.51 In short, the Guodian documents lack a metaphysical perspective because core concepts in its metaphysics of the Way, such as the Way, One, and the Way of heaven, are not present. This aspect may need to be highlighted because I primarily view Laozi as a political text.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=9EW5rwv5FQoC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=guodian+laozi+is+generally+missing+political+chapters&source=bl&ots=N-2dCjbYhm&sig=7CcMMTBvk3MTuN0VLadVFfuIqqI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LQYMU9WACKKRygHgkYH4Cw&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=guodian%20laozi%20is%20generally%20missing%20political%20chapters&f=false

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Marblehead...

This one is not in Korean. Next time you do your own homework....!!!

 

Confucius meets Lao Zi

 

note that the intro states this is a compilation from the Sima Quan and Chuang Tzu..

[Harmonious Emptiness]

[...]

 

Lao Tzu supported government. At least two-thirds of the TTC concerns itself with telling the rulers and would-be rulers how to rule the people.

 

Chuang Tzu, on the other hand, while admitting that government was needed, would have nothing to do with it.

 

And yes, Lao Tzu was a conformist while Chuang Tzu was an anarchist.

 

Lao Tzu also counseled against holding high ranks. See chapter 13 for one example:

 

Favor and disgrace are things that startle;

High rank is, like one's body, a source of great trouble.

 

What is meant by saying favor and disgrace are things that startle?

Favor when it is bestowed on a subject serves to startle as much as when it is withdrawn.

This is what is meant by saying that favor and disgrace are things that startle.

What is meant by saying that high rank is, like one's body, a source of great trouble?

The reason I have great trouble is that I have a body.

When I no longer have a body, what trouble have I?

....

 

 

 

Being in a position to counsel the powerful, it would only be the sagely thing to do to give them counsel and try to pad it with the wisdom that they really needed: the Dao.

 

 

As for being a conformist:

 

The multitude are joyous

As if partaking of the offering

Or going up to a terrace in spring.

I alone am inactive and reveal no signs,

And wax without having reached the limit.

Like a baby that has not yet learned to smile,

Listless as though with no home to go back to.

The multitude all have more than enough.

I alone seem to be in want.

My mind is that of a fool - how blank!

Vulgar people are clear.

I alone am drowsy.

Vulgar people are alert.

I alone am muddled.

Calm like the sea;

Like a high wind that never ceases.

The multitude all have a purpose.

I alone am foolish and uncouth.

I alone am different from others

And value being fed by the mother.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I'm a big jerk, aren't I..

 

[Marblehead]

note that the intro states this is a compilation from the Sima Quan and Chuang Tzu..

Hehehe. I was just messing with that. I knew it was Chinese but I still couldn't read it.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

Anarchy versus the inevitability of the state is something I have been meditating upon for years.

...

[Marblehead]

I'm a big jerk, aren't I..

 

Hehehe. You go ahead on. You are actually supporting my true understanding. Many of the questions and comments I have made in this and the other thread have been to inspire research and discussion by others.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

This also have I meditated upon;

 

Render unto the King what is the King's.

 

The state is there.

 

To work within or without is a good question.

...

[Marblehead]

...

Anarchy versus the inevitability of the state is something I have been meditating upon for years.

...

There will always be governments. Anarchy can never exist except at the individual and small village level. As societies grow the number of members who need to be told how to behave grow as well. Those who dictate how one should behave will be either religion or government (same thing really).

 

That is why Chuang Tzu admitted to the need for government but yet for himself refused to become part of it in order to maintain his individual anarchic philosophy.

 

And yes, what Harmonious Emptiness pointed out above is valid. If we are given honors by others this also means that those same others can take back the honors they have given. By allowing others to judge us takes away our independence.

[Marblehead]

...

This also have I meditated upon;

 

Render unto the King what is the King's.

 

The state is there.

 

To work within or without is a good question.

...

You sure are full of thoughts this morning. Hehehe.

 

Yes, even the anarchist must render to the King what the society has allowed for the King to have. Else we must leave the society or pay for our crime.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

You sure are full of thoughts this morning.

 

Blame BKA.

 

It's really just one thought.

 

How best to be of service.

 

I loved reading Chuang Tzu.

 

Maybe my ultimate favourite...

 

The funny thing is, I haven't really rendered to Caeser for years.

 

I lived on the wife's (govt employee) earnings for years, and now I'm on welfare benefits.

 

I gotta get a job.

...

Edited February 25, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[Marblehead]

Well, Here's a special song for you:

 

 

 

 

 

An important thing to consider when reading The Chuang Tzu is that there is not one single mention of Buddhism. This is because Buddhism had not yet entered China until after The Chuang Tzu was written down in it finish (presently translated) form.