Theory: proof of chi is in the electrical pulses of the brain

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Saw that someone on facebook liked a link by famous skeptic James Randi which purported that chi was entirely illusion and imagination.

 

So I thought how to explain how chi works? The article says that all these tricks using chi in martial arts rely entirely on the laws of physics.

 

First of all, these "tricks" were not developed by physicists, they were developed by masters of the chi arts. They learned how to do these things by their knowledge of chi. Following this path of knowledge and practice they are able to learn how to do these things, not by math and western science.

 

So how did they learn to do this?

 

By following the electrical impulses that were sent to the brain while doing this work, and knowing by those energetic messages, what was happening.

 

The feeling of chi is an electric signal that is sent to the brain which enables one to control the body by electric signals, knowing where those feelings are coming from, while also allowing the body natural function.

 

Chi gong is mastering the flow of energy to the body and the brain, perhaps enabling the reverse flow, so that the body energy and body-energy-signals can be mastered, controlling bodily functions, such as loosening the endocrine passages, and overriding bodily reflexes.

 

This may be the scientific explanation of what is happening, but what does science know from its experience about chi and chi gong? It has hardly entertained the idea that it exists, while chi gong masters have been teaching and studying it for hundreds if not thousands of years.

 

 

I don't recall reading any articles that put forth this explanation before. Does anyone know of one?

 

 

Also, could someone please direct me to a link about chi gong masters emitting chi to an electrical measurement machine? Thanks

 

 

hé

[Marblehead]

Well, as the base form of what we (and all thing) are is energy it would only stand to reason, IMO, that this energy can be channelled just as we channel electricity via electrical wires. Yes, it would be much more difficult without the wires but still possible. Afterall, all radio energy is transmitted without electrical wires. The sun's energy is transmitted to us without wires.

[Rara]

Yeah. I always wondered what it was that made an "electrifying atmosphere" at a live event, like a rock concert or live sport. Just a feeling of excitement that happens to ripple through everyone in the room.

 

It's as if energy can be shared (and drained) in a number of ways.

 

Only thing is that physicists will always find it difficult of explain fully as I'm not convinced there is a way to do so. It's the same as trying to describe where to locate consciousness and thoughts. They cannot be seen, not if you open up a brain. But you can see the mechanism.

[Toratetsu]

Here are just a few of my thoughts that I noted one day after meditating:

 

Chi = bioelectricmagnetism. It seems that chi is electricity produced by the brain or crown chakra and the chakras or dantians are the magnets that extension of the mind. Also known as energy body. This is electromagnetism. Bio is cells and living tissue. The spirit is electricity when thinking of mind, body and spirit. Also I see how having a controlled and calm mind matters as it is what links everything together and guides energy, or spirit, to the organs, or chakras. Seeing as with out you are dead.

 

This was before I started to profoundly understand Qi, Jing and Shen, which I am probably just at the surface.

 

I noticed as far as energy work that Qi Its self feels cool, like wind, to me and perinium breathing adds Jing which makes It hot and rumbles. Perhaps the shen, or spirit, Is the electricty that pumps into where you are focusing with your mind, which Is like a magnet.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Toratetsu

[NotVoid]

If a person has ever experienced what a very accomplished qigong master can do, they will understand that what qi is really doesn't appear to be explainable in terms of electricity, magnetism, EM (electromagnetic) fields or EM radiation, or photon emission, or energetic particle emission, etc. alone. This is not to say that an accomplished qigong master can't produce measurable effects of this sort by manipulating and/or emitting qi, and some scientific studies do seem to indicate that much higher degrees than normal of some of these physical forms of energy/matter can be measured when a qigong master is manipulating or externalizing their internal qi or other forms of qi. A person can have very strong internal qi, but if they are not trying to manipulate and externalize their qi in some way, none of the above physical forms of energy may be measured too much outside of the ordinary. However if such a person starts manipulating or externalizing their qi in some special way, it does appear that any or all of the above effects may be detected or measured to some degree above the ordinary on or around the person. So I think we can say that by manipulating or externalizing qi, various forms of physical energy/matter may be measured above the ordinary depending on what a given qigong master is able to do, so manipulation of qi in certain ways can produce such effects, but qi seems to be something which is not those physical forms of energy/matter itself. I say this because what can be done with qi can be many degrees of magnitude beyond the level of 'physical' energy that currently is being measured in scientific studies I personally have looked at. There appears to be something which is quite a bit beyond these measurable forms of energy in regards to 'qi'. It may be that once our measurement instruments are improved and/or as the experiments are improved that we may start to get a better understanding of what at least some forms of qi are, but it appears to be anyone's guess at this point.

Personally I think people do much more harm than good when they throw terms around like bioelectricity and biomagnetism and biophotons and electromagnetic energy, etc. as explanations for qi without really understanding the real implications and meaning of the terms they are using. This is because scientists or technical people who understand the meaning of such terms realize that the effects that are claimed to be produced by qi such as through qi cultivation and qi emission for healing and that sort of thing can't be accounted for by these sorts of measurable physical phenomena, at least not at the current time anyway. IMO people would be much better off to say that qi is as yet still not understood than to throw terms like bioelectricity and biomagnetism and biophotons etc. around, as this only makes members of the scientific community roll their eyes when they hear these sorts of terms being thrown around in pseudoscientific fashion without any real understanding or basis. This is even more of a problem IMO when people who do have technical or scientific backgrounds throw these sort of terms around in regards to qi without any real sound basis for using those explanations, as sometimes occurs as well.

I posted the following links in another thread recently, but anyway the Rhine Research Center has been conducting ongoing experiments with qigong/'bioenergy' healers, meditators and martial artists to see if they can measure significantly higher levels of ultraviolet photon emissions around such people when they are manipulating qi or doing whatever they do, and the Rhine Research Center has found that in some cases they do measure much higher than normal levels of ultraviolet photons under controlled lab conditions around such people. However the level of energy measured in these photons emissions is quite small compared to what can actually be accomplished with qi, so I think we should view such physical energy measurements as indicators that something outside the ordinary is occurring, but that the full extent of what is occurring does not seem to be accounted for with the physical energy measurements alone.

Rhine Research Center - Bio-Energy Lab:
http://www.rhine.org/what-we-do/current-research/235-a-study-of-human-biofields-by-bill-joines-ph-d.html


Here is a video showing the results of one such experiment at the Rhine Research Center on a qigong practitioner:

Edited February 25, 2014 by NotVoid

[doc benway]

It's my opinion that Qi is inherent in any measurements made in physical systems.

I see no reason whatsoever to posit something that is outside the laws of physics.

I have found Qi to be fundamentally related to awareness, also something elusive to the experimental and theoretical physicists to date.

That may change and it may not.

I'll still continue to practice.

 

edited because my OP was way too wordy and presumptuous

Edited February 26, 2014 by steve

[NotVoid]

I am personally not suggesting that what is called qi is something which is necessarily 'outside of known laws of physics', just that any scientific studies I personally have looked at (which are not a whole lot, and many may not be up to rigorous scientific standards, or are more informal studies) ) do not seem to be able to account for what is observed when some accomplished qigong masters do what they do. Some qigong masters can 'project qi' at a distance of several feet or more, and this 'projected qi' can be easily be felt by the recipient, and can have a strong effect on the recipient as well. For example, the recipient may feel a strong 'field' like effect hitting a part or all of their body, or feel strong tingling, or strong heat, or pressure, etc., and even feel very nauseous or feel euphoric and that sort of thing. However it seems that when this projection of qi is measured using scientific measurement instruments, while some unusual physical effects can apparently sometimes be measured, IMO it does not seem to be able to account for the strong effects this projected qi can have on a recipient. A lot more study will have to be done no doubt, and maybe understanding what qi is may not come until advances in areas such as quantum physics or other areas of science can offer better explanations for the phenomena.

 

For people who have experienced qi personally through their own practice, or such as I have described above, it is not really a matter of belief at all, but having the direct experience of something which seems to be quite inexplicable, and not having any way to explain it based on current understanding. For someone who has not experienced such things, it is understandable that they might be inclined to view such things as ordinary physiological functions and mechanics and that sort of thing, but in that case their view is based on assumption and belief rather than real understanding of the full range of the phenomena. Certainly projection of qi at a distance can't be explained at all as ordinary physiological functioning or mechanics. When qigong was still a big craze in China a number of years ago before the crack down on qigong groups in China, various modern qigong masters and scientists etc. began to put forth the idea of qi as something that is not just energetic in nature, but something which also contains or transmits information or intelligence, or intelligent structure. Thus based on this view, qi is not just some basic form of energy, but something more than this.

Edited February 26, 2014 by NotVoid

[Spotless]

Qi has little to do with the mind, and the crown chakra and mind are not where it comes from.

The bio-magnetic enhancement does take place but it is much more than that and the Qi is not the structure for the magnetics.

 

By the end of this century physics might nudge a fraction of an inch closer to having some clue but at this point it is light years away from even the remotest pinch of understanding. It sees only the dry side. Lately it has fancied itself to study a "living" universe but in reality it is still immersed in a completely dead "living" universe.

 

Qi has many different aspects: cosmic an earth energies - Heaven Qi, Earth Chi, original Qi, cultivated Qi. .......

Most of this conversation is around cultivated Qi along with a blend of a notion of Universal Qi - so we are already all over the board.

 

This cultivated Qi is felt quit differently than Heaven Qi! Earth Qi.

 

When your body and sensory perception become aware of the flow and saturation on a fine microscopic level throughout your body and out into your aura, of the magnetic columns of energy and the large spherical ones as well - you will know you are not producing it - it is not yours.

 

It is a wondrous energy that is in your nostrils, in light, in trees and air and water - in the body known as you but which is no more you than dirt on the other side of the planet.

 

When you can see Qi coming off the hands of a master - it is much thicker than the other mentioned types - Kirilian photography can catch some of it - real kirilian on film, not the light bending pictures at the local crystal fair.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Spotless

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks for all of the interesting responses everyone! I'll be busy for a couple of days.. hopefully can respond soon after that. By all means, continue the discussion however.

[Marblehead]

Just as a matter for possible consideration:

 

We have heard of and seen pictures of auroras and halos surrounding some people's head and body. Personally, I cannot and never have seen these things. But there are many who can.

 

These auroras and halos are energy. This is what I am calling Chi. And I want to make sure that anything I say about Chi doesn't sound magical. It is, in my mind, a very natural thing. But let's be careful regarding how we suggest how this energy can be utilized.

[Rara]

Just as a matter for possible consideration:

 

We have heard of and seen pictures of auroras and halos surrounding some people's head and body. Personally, I cannot and never have seen these things. But there are many who can.

 

These auroras and halos are energy. This is what I am calling Chi. And I want to make sure that anything I say about Chi doesn't sound magical. It is, in my mind, a very natural thing. But let's be careful regarding how we suggest how this energy can be utilized.

Martial artists that use "chi" to hit their opponents...this is plastered all over Youtube. I'm not convinced.

 

But at the moment, I do sunscribe to the cultivation of chi idea. Whether my experiences have been psychological or not, I don't think I will ever know.

 

But I also subscribe to the idea that anything material is still mental. Created by a bigger mind (the Tao? Hermetic calls it "The All") yet also created (for it is perceived) by our own minds. So chi = mind. Mind over matter...

[Toratetsu]

I apologize In confusing you "Big Brain" people. I was simply speaking from a Qigong perspective. Everyone has their own and It doesn't make It wrong or any less scientific to try and figure things out on your own with whatever vocabulary you have. Maybe Its safe to say Its universal energy. Maybe Its god. Maybe its incomprehencable. What matters Is putting time Into understanding and learning about it. Rather It's gaining knowlege scientifically or meditating under a waterfall. I'm not much one for mystical mumbo jumbo, but the mystery Is what makes It magical and I don't want to have that cut out from the experience and maybe that's why It can't be classified as one thing of certain magnitude, because it's a creative energy and defining It by one word, form, or definition Is never going to justify Its meaning or purpose. It doesn't help anyone to use the knowlege from science to look like an arrogant @$$.

[Marblehead]

Yep. We all have our own understanding regarding this concept.

 

Until more substantial "proof" is provided I suppose one understanding is just as good as another. (Kinda' like the paths we walk during our journey of life.)

[NotVoid]

The topic of this thread is in regards to 'proof' of qi. There are two kinds of 'proof' in regards to qi. A person can 'prove' or at least experience qi for them self through direct experience, and then there is scientific proof of qi. I think the intention of this thread was in regards to scientific proof of qi and whether it can be detected or measured using scientific measurement instruments, so that is the angle I have been focusing on. When investigating some as yet not understood phenomenon, if a person wants to really have a chance of understanding that phenomenon they have to put aside their preconceptions and biases and study that phenomenon as it is, not as they would like it to be. Now in the real world it is not too likely for people to completely remove all their biases and preconceptions, but I think in regards to subjects like this it is important to keep in mind how our biases can affect our perception and willingness to look at things as they are, rather than how we would like them to be.

When a person experiences the effects of qi in their body, they experience this mainly as sensations and perhaps visually or even aurally as well. It can also involve involuntary movement of parts of the body as well. If a person were just going on this, then it would be really hard to say exactly what qi is, but a person can observe that something very unusual is going on, and that it can dramatically improve or cure health problems and mental state and can increase a person's strength and stamina and energy. Seen just from this point of view, there is no way to say for certain that what is going on is not just some physiological/mental processes, although certainly there is a strong 'energetic feel' to all of this, at least. Still you can't really say for certain what is going on from the point of view of science just based on the sensations and perceptions of the person experiencing this.

However, a person who can emit qi at a distance without physical touch and affect another person (or object) quite noticeably, such as producing very strong physical sensations and effects in a recipient, or healing a long standing and stubborn illness fairly quickly which the recipient has and that sort of thing, then we would appear to have something that can potentially at least be more easily studied using the scientific method. Preliminary scientific studies I have seen show that sometimes at least unusual external physical phenomena can be observed and measured when this type of qi projection is occurring, so it would appear that in such cases this is not just suggestion or hypnosis or that sort of thing occurring. This is why I was mainly focusing in on this type of phenomenon in this discussion.

For someone to say, 'well, such things do not fit in with my preconceptions of what is possible or the way I think it should be, so I will just dismiss this out of hand', is not part of the scientific method. The scientific method is a specific methodology to study things so we can get a better understanding of what is actually going on (mainly from a physical science point of view). Preconceptions should be checked at the door.

Some scientific studies of this sort of phenomena of external qi projection, mainly from China but there are probably some similar Western based studies as well, show that very unusual and measurable external physical effects can sometimes be detected when a qigong master is projecting qi externally. From the perspective of science, this is quite preliminary as there is a whole long drawn out peer review process for vetting studies, but it does look at least somewhat promising that this type of external qi projection phenomenon is something that can be studied using the scientific method. The main problem is finding people with sufficient abilities at externalizing qi who would be willing to devote their time to undergoing a long period of testing and studies, and also finding scientists qualified and open minded and motivated enough to conduct the scientific studies, and who have the funding to do so as well. The studies being done at the Rhine Research Center appear to be a pretty good start into this type of scientific study already, and are showing some promising results, and for all I know there may be other similar such studies occurring at other labs in the West as well. Not sure how much these sort of scientific studies have continued in China since the Chinese government crackdown on qigong groups in the early nineties however.

So, I think to summarize, some preliminary scientific study of external qi projection has already been done with some promising results, but I think a lot more in depth scientific study will be required before anyone can start to talk about qi being proven or at all understood from the scientific point of view. That is my perspective on this anyway.

Edited February 26, 2014 by NotVoid

[Rara]

Correct me if I'm wrong...science did prove chi...

 

Chi = energy, right?

 

Physicists found ways to generate it...people can even generate electricity from their own bodies.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

[....]

 

In my own experience and interpretation of what's going on, Qi has something to do with the interface between awareness and manifestation.

[...]

 

This is essentially what I was saying in the opening post, and this would help explain how people can almost miraculous things by cultivating chi, even if they can later be explained by physics - good luck to a physics master doing those same things without chi gung.

 

However, I there certainly are other phenomena especially in healing which show that this energy can also be projected and utilized in such a way to affect another's chi, so I guess that explanation will not suffice on the whole.

 

NotVoid said:

When qigong was still a big craze in China a number of years ago before the crack down on qigong groups in China, various modern qigong masters and scientists etc. began to put forth the idea of qi as something that is not just energetic in nature, but something which also contains or transmits information or intelligence, or intelligent structure. Thus based on this view, qi is not just some basic form of energy, but something more than this.

 

 

This also falls into my experience, and is even further inexplicable by science (or myself for that matter, lol), especially when the communication happens over distance.

 

I guess the skeptics will always have their little parties of ridicule. It's unfortunate that they are so quick to be skeptical yet never of their close-minded skepticism.

 

Found the following video, but I'm sure most people will say it's a cheap video-magic trick. Maybe it is, but I know there are enough instances of this type of thing that I'm not dismissing it yet.

 

 

 

I know that Ya Mu and Michael Winn both did some sort of successful chi measurement tests. Does anyone know where to find those?

[NotVoid]

Harmonious Emptiness, here is a web page with links to a number of scientifc studies or related in regards to qigong and qi research.

Qigong Institute - Scientific Papers

http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/papers.php

 

I read somewhere that the video showing the qigong therapists dissolving the tumor was at a zhineng qigong hospital in China. Not sure that video is showing the exact same case I read about however, but for the case I read about it was a zhineng qigong hospital and they mentioned that this was possible because they were using groups of qigong therapists there, and that they also felt that if people practice qigong in groups at a specific location that over time this builds up the qi of that location, which can be tapped into by the group, so the qi is stronger than what can be achieved by an individual practicing alone. I don't know if that is true at all, but it was something I had read somewhere...

(found this note on another version of the video:

"Zhineng Qigong teachers at the Huaxia Zhineng Qigong Healing Center used their mind power and made the tumor disappear in less than a minute.")

Edited February 26, 2014 by NotVoid

[Enishi]

Chi/spirit would ime be better described in terms of scalar resonance, as opposed to linear vector forces.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Enishi

[Marblehead]

Chi/spirit would ime be better described in terms of scalar resonance, as opposed to linear vector forces.

An interesting consideration. (My knowledge base in this is too shallow for me to discuss it.)

[Creation]

Chi/spirit would ime be better described in terms of scalar resonance, as opposed to linear vector forces.

Hi Enishi.

 

I have seen all sorts of claims about scalar waves/forces. I tried to investigate these claims but couldn't make any progress because because they are not phrased in the mathematical language I am used to, where scalar and vector have certain mathematical meanings, satisfy certain types of equations, etc.

 

Could you explain mind when you say scalar force, vector force, and why scalar forces are the right way to describe these phenomena? Also, I noticed you contrasted "scalar resonance" with "linear vector force", rather than "scalar resonance" with "vector resonance" or "scalar force" with "vector force". Also "linear vector force" instead of "vector force". Would you explain these terms?

 

 

Also, I want to say that I especially like NotVoids posts in this thread.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Creation

[GreytoWhite]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140116085105.htm

[Enishi]

I glanced over some links I was thinking of posting, but it's probably better if I describe it in terms of my own current (limited) understanding for the moment.

 

In quick summary, vectors are composed of direction and magnitude, while scalars are only magnitude. In a sense they don't extend out into space like vectors do, but rather reach INWARD, and thus can connect with 'like' magnitudes.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Enishi

[Spotless]

What was shown in the video was very real - at least in the sense that it is completely possible to do what was shown and the way In which they were doing it is consistent with the way I have done it, though it can be done just as well sitting in a chair half a world away.

 

If you were to give 20 top western scientists 100 million dollars to study for one day a person who could and does levitate in a controlled room that they designed with no expense spared, the very best they could state afterwards is that the results were inconclusive.

 

Imagine trying to tell a small child to pay attention to something really closely because it is very important - they cannot grasp the concept, they cannot suddenly become interested in something way beyond their perception of things - and certainly not for extended periods of time. Try then telling them they have to do it your way - they have to pay attention in a serious and earnest way - at that point they start to do finger-painting and look up at you and you smile and realize how ridiculous your expectations were.

 

It is fun to look at this stuff but do not expect much from science along these lines for a very long time.

In fact - this stuff (Qi) - is moving way past this new and very young western science - the old sciences are coming back, they never left, they are the foundation of modern science. (Just stating this will bring bile up from some hearing it).

 

Check out some of the old Russian footage of mental image pictures being projected onto boxed and sealed film plates several feet away. Or the often repeated phantom leaf phenomenon. Science simply does not want to see this stuff. They like things like the Big Bang Theory - and they say this stuff and look up at you and you just have to smile and realize they are in this wonderland of make believe and they think you are a giant idiot staring down at them.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Spotless

[Harmonious Emptiness]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140116085105.htm

 

Before I get to some other posts, just wanted to say thanks for this^.

 

What I found most interesting was

 

"The recent discovery of quantum vibrations in "microtubules" inside brain neurons corroborates this theory, according to review authors Stuart Hameroff and Sir Roger Penrose. They suggest that EEG rhythms (brain waves) also derive from deeper level microtubule vibrations"

 

and

 

"They will engage skeptics in a debate on the nature of consciousness, and Bandyopadhyay and his team will couple microtubule vibrations from active neurons to play Indian musical instruments. "Consciousness depends on anharmonic vibrations of microtubules inside neurons, similar to certain kinds of Indian music, but unlike Western music which is harmonic," Hameroff explains."

 

So basically we have these cytoskeletons inside the cytoplasm of each cell which have these "microtubules" (seen in green in the photo below), which pick up messages.

 

 

 

 

So, somehow these vibrations/ideas are processed and weighed, whether consciously or "sub"consciously.

 

I'd prefer to offer the term SUPER-consciously, for the processes of knowing in open awareness.

 

 

The "theory" they're debating seems to be based on the idea that it is harmonic/vibrational phenomena which stimulate the microtubules and are responsible for all of consciousness.

 

Like every thought is just some random vibration caused by harmonic dissonance. And these are supposed to be today's smart people ! We're just a bunch of robots folks, responding to our circuitry.

 

 

Otherwise what they might be referring to is the rhythmic pattern being changed, since anharmonic is related to oscilation and Indian rhythmic patterns change sometimes every bar, like "123,1!234, 123, 123, 12, 1!2345678, 12..." (bad example, but you get the idea).

 

 

Either way, even if it is a vibration or oscillation (any oscillation creates vibrational frequency, so either way), wouldn't that wave be a form of energy in itself, not unlike....... chi!!

[Harmonious Emptiness]

[edited for space]

 

Check out some of the old Russian footage of mental image pictures being projected onto boxed and sealed film plates several feet away. Or the often repeated phantom leaf phenomenon. Science simply does not want to see this stuff. They like things like the Big Bang Theory - and they say this stuff and look up at you and you just have to smile and realize they are in this wonderland of make believe and they think you are a giant idiot staring down at them.

 

As you said, yes, it's not something they will understand in their current paradigm of knowledge, especially without sincere practice and success in chi gung.

 

Wasn't able to find the Russian footage. Would you have any links?