The War of Shadows

[Ryan McCoole]

oh ye Bums! In the name of psychology, the Dao and the link between Light and Darkness, let me know what ye think:

 

http://www.sangraal.com/library/rtc6.htm

 

(seriously, I thought the Jungian concepts were great, applicable to our varied practices)

 

Be ye well,

 

-Ryan

Edited July 18, 2007 by Ryan McCoole

[Todd]

Perhaps there are two types of war. In one, two fight. In the other, only one is fighting.

 

Which will last longer?

 

If you've answered that question, then how long do you want to be at war?

 

 

 

Seriously though, I thought the Jung quotes were the best things in the article.

[Cameron]

I don't know too much about this tradition..I have read bits and pieces of Hermetic philosophy..or Egyptian philosophy..whatever you call this.

 

The best I can come up with in regard with what I am personally interested in is when Shakyamuni Buddha sat in meditation completely determined to awaken.

 

The way Adyashanti explains this as all the "demons" or whatever you call them appeared in Buddhas mind he got to the point where anything..no matter how scary or terrible..resulted in no response.

 

"You will die"....so what

 

"Your family and loved ones will suffer forever"...so what

 

"You will be torn limb from limb"...so what

 

And of course all the other ego torments..raging storms of mind..probably including every facet of human existence.

 

So..I don't know if that relates to the "war" between the dark or light..to me it's more like you need to go through a stage where all wars are off. All attachments and battles and dualistic energies within you drop away and your inherent shining true nature is able to be seen.

 

But I don't think there is too much point to even talking about this intellectually as these are all just the by product of emptiness meditation. You go to the ground of being and all these battles rooted in egoic illusion for the past million or whatever years is just seen through. Like a long, bad movie you watched for so long you forgot was a movie and I don't even want my money back just the freedom to leave the congested theatre.

 

Or something

[三江源]

Mantak Chia has a death meditation, I heard, which someone I was taught by passed on to us on retreat. Very powerful.

 

Like the practice of chod.

[Pero]

Perhaps there are two types of war. In one, two fight. In the other, only one is fighting.

 

Which will last longer?

 

If you've answered that question, then how long do you want to be at war?

 

Seriously though, I thought the Jung quotes were the best things in the article.

 

War can only be if there are two. If there is one, where could conflict be?

 

Mantak Chia has a death meditation, I heard, which someone I was taught by passed on to us on retreat. Very powerful.

 

Like the practice of chod.

 

Hmm, sorry to nitpick but, you "heard" or it was passed on to you?

 

Anyway, can you describe it (in a general way)?

[Ryan McCoole]

War can only be if there are two. If there is one, where could conflict be?

Hmm, sorry to nitpick but, you "heard" or it was passed on to you?

 

Anyway, can you describe it (in a general way)?

 

I was thinking, if darkness is that which passes away, then "Light" could just be another word for Reality, the Dao?

 

So, not a dualistic Light Vs. Dark, but a Reality vs. the lack of a perception of Reality?

 

Also it talks in the article about psychology and states of mind. My question to you: In Reality, do all of the various qi-gong and tai chi practices, in the end, give us ways to raise our electro magnetic brain waves, open up our minds, and expose our psyche to areas where we can unearth our "dark" psychological problems?

 

In other words, is the "Light" in the article simply a psychological mindset we slip into in practice and cultivation in day to day?

 

be well,

[thelerner]

I like what McCoole wrote. The whole Lightness (which must be me) vs Darkness (those who disagree w/ me) is playing to & propping up the ego big time.

 

I'm not a Buddhists but their writings ring with clear reality.

 

 

Michael

[Ryan McCoole]

I like what McCoole wrote. The whole Lightness (which must be me) vs Darkness (those who disagree w/ me) is playing to & propping up the ego big time.

 

I'm not a Buddhists but their writings ring with clear reality.

Michael

 

Has anyone ever found that meditation/their own practice can bring about "negative" or dark feelings?

[Todd]

War can only be if there are two. If there is one, where could conflict be?

 

 

Thats a really good question. I suggest you find the answer in your own experience. The question begins with the conditional statement, "If there is one." Why consider the rest of the question, if we haven't established the existence of the prior condition first? Is there one? Is there any level at which you feel one?

 

I am asking about your immediate experience of being, not what you have read, or you have decided to be true, or have experienced in the past. Do you find one anywhere? What is it like?

Edited July 18, 2007 by Todd

[Pero]

Thats a really good question. I suggest you find the answer in your own experience. The question begins with the conditional statement, "If there is one." Why consider the rest of the question, if we haven't established the existence of the prior condition first? Is there one? Is there any level at which you feel one?

 

I am asking about your immediate experience of being, not what you have read, or you have decided to be true, or have experienced in the past. Do you find one anywhere? What is it like?

 

It was more of a rhetorical question, I`m not searching for an answer.

 

Anyway, I don`t think I understand these questions. Like if I find one anywhere, like it is somewhere outside that I should search for it?

Nor am I sure should I be talking about my experience.

In any case, it is something one has to experience, I cannot tell you what it is like. And one reason for that is also that I have not enough experience.

And even if I told you, what good would that do? If I say, it`s like an orange, you will think maybe it`s something like an orange. But then someone else will say it`s like an apple, and you`ll think it`s something like an apple. Which you said yourself, "not something you have decided to be true". You need to "find" for yourself.

 

I`m very little knowledgeable, so better for me not to speak too much so I won`t say stupid things (more than usual anyway hehe).

 

Perhaps it would be better if you explain what exactly you mean by two fighting in war and one fighting in war?

[Todd]

It was more of a rhetorical question, I`m not searching for an answer.

 

Anyway, I don`t think I understand these questions. Like if I find one anywhere, like it is somewhere outside that I should search for it?

Nor am I sure should I be talking about my experience.

In any case, it is something one has to experience, I cannot tell you what it is like. And one reason for that is also that I have not enough experience.

And even if I told you, what good would that do? If I say, it`s like an orange, you will think maybe it`s something like an orange. But then someone else will say it`s like an apple, and you`ll think it`s something like an apple. Which you said yourself, "not something you have decided to be true". You need to "find" for yourself.

 

I`m very little knowledgeable, so better for me not to speak too much so I won`t say stupid things (more than usual anyway hehe).

 

Perhaps it would be better if you explain what exactly you mean by two fighting in war and one fighting in war?

 

I wasn't asking to get a correct answer. I was asking to establish this conversation in experience. I'm not really interested in presenting coherent explanations of various topics. There are enough of those in the world. I am trying to find out where you are at, so that we might establish a connection there. If we don't start right where we are at, if we aren't willingly to look at exactly where we are at, then its all idle chatter. Thats fine too, if thats what you want. Its just not what I'm in the mood for.

 

For the fun of it, I'll pretend that you answered that you have a sense of oneness that comes and goes in terms of how large it looms in your consciousness, but you also have a sense that this oneness is always there no matter what is happening in your consciousness. Sometimes you are less sure of this. When you think of oneness, your mind basically shuts up, because it is much bigger than any word can encompass, and you're not even sure oneness is the appropriate name. Lets also say oneness is more apparent in some situations and less apparent in others. Maybe in nature it easily becomes obvious, whereas with difficult people it can go right out the window.

 

Obviously I'm just making this up, but lets just say. Then I might say, "Ok, there is a sense of oneness that comes and goes. When it is present I'd wager that it is all encompassing. That means that everything you see and think of has a similar quality. What is happening when it goes? Are things no longer one? Is oneness an experience or one of the basic faces of what is?"

 

You might reply, "I don't see what you're getting at. Perhaps it would be better if you explain what exactly you mean by two fighting in war and one fighting in war?"

 

Then I'd look inside myself to see what is happening. Who knows what would be said from there.

[三江源]

hi Pero! I was on a retreat and was led through a death meditation. The teacher was trained by Chia and told us about doing the death meditation with Chia. I havent done it myself with Chia.

 

clearer..?!

 

It was a quite radical experience, a deep and very very long ( all night ) meditation. Quite brutal in parts of it, which I feel reluctant to repeat here, for some reason.. ok, here goes.. one had to see one's loved one's and family killed, and die, oneself. Seeng as how it was a very deep meditation, it was ....impactful, to say the least.

 

Has anyone ever found that meditation/their own practice can bring about "negative" or dark feelings?

 

Hi Ryan!

 

It is common that meditation brings up shadow, yes. absolutely.

[Pero]

I wasn't asking to get a correct answer. I was asking to establish this conversation in experience. I'm not really interested in presenting coherent explanations of various topics. There are enough of those in the world. I am trying to find out where you are at, so that we might establish a connection there. If we don't start right where we are at, if we aren't willingly to look at exactly where we are at, then its all idle chatter. Thats fine too, if thats what you want. Its just not what I'm in the mood for.

 

For the fun of it, I'll pretend that you answered that you have a sense of oneness that comes and goes in terms of how large it looms in your consciousness, but you also have a sense that this oneness is always there no matter what is happening in your consciousness. Sometimes you are less sure of this. When you think of oneness, your mind basically shuts up, because it is much bigger than any word can encompass, and you're not even sure oneness is the appropriate name. Lets also say oneness is more apparent in some situations and less apparent in others. Maybe in nature it easily becomes obvious, whereas with difficult people it can go right out the window.

 

Obviously I'm just making this up, but lets just say. Then I might say, "Ok, there is a sense of oneness that comes and goes. When it is present I'd wager that it is all encompassing. That means that everything you see and think of has a similar quality. What is happening when it goes? Are things no longer one? Is oneness an experience or one of the basic faces of what is?"

 

You might reply, "I don't see what you're getting at. Perhaps it would be better if you explain what exactly you mean by two fighting in war and one fighting in war?"

 

Then I'd look inside myself to see what is happening. Who knows what would be said from there.

 

Why do you think I`m not willing to look at "where I am at"? I might not be willing to talk about it though. Oneness does not come and go, it is always there. Though indeed oneness may not be the right word. It is beyond concepts, though much can be/was written about it. Beyond experience, but then it is hard to talk about if you do not use word experience.

 

 

hi Pero! I was on a retreat and was led through a death meditation. The teacher was trained by Chia and told us about doing the death meditation with Chia. I havent done it myself with Chia.

 

clearer..?!

 

Yes, thank you.

 

It was a quite radical experience, a deep and very very long ( all night ) meditation. Quite brutal in parts of it, which I feel reluctant to repeat here, for some reason.. ok, here goes.. one had to see one's loved one's and family killed, and die, oneself. Seeng as how it was a very deep meditation, it was ....impactful, to say the least.

 

 

Interesting. What is it`s purpose?

[三江源]

Pero, the point of it is like chod. ( google it! )

 

about overcoming fear of death. the duality of life/death. the waking sleep of being alive. that sort a stuff!

[Pero]

Pero, the point of it is like chod. ( google it! )

 

about overcoming fear of death. the duality of life/death. the waking sleep of being alive. that sort a stuff!

 

I know what Chod is.

[Todd]

Why do you think I`m not willing to look at "where I am at"? I might not be willing to talk about it though. Oneness does not come and go, it is always there. Though indeed oneness may not be the right word. It is beyond concepts, though much can be/was written about it. Beyond experience, but then it is hard to talk about if you do not use word experience.

 

 

Its fine if you don't want to talk about it. I appreciate that you did say something, since now we are closer to having a genuine conversation.

 

When you say oneness is always "there", where is that? I may just be picking at words, but sometimes the words we use are clues to the relationship we have with truth.

 

It may also be that you skipped the stage I was referring to with "one fighting." What do I know?

[三江源]

I know what Chod is.

 

 

It's a great word , isnt it. Would be a good name for a breakfast cereal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pero]

Its fine if you don't want to talk about it. I appreciate that you did say something, since now we are closer to having a genuine conversation.

 

When you say oneness is always "there", where is that? I may just be picking at words, but sometimes the words we use are clues to the relationship we have with truth.

 

It`s really not "there", it isn`t anywhere.

Can`t put into words myself.

 

It may also be that you skipped the stage I was referring to with "one fighting."

 

Well that`s why I asked if you could explain more what exactly you meant. Because I`m not sure I understand, maybe my preconceptions and stuff interefered or something.

 

What do I know?

 

What do I know?

 

It's a great word , isnt it. Would be a good name for a breakfast cereal.

 

Hehehe. Want some chod?

But no, it wouldn`t work for me, too important.

[Todd]

Well that`s why I asked if you could explain more what exactly you meant. Because I`m not sure I understand, maybe my preconceptions and stuff interefered or something.

 

I'm not even sure how to approach this topic.

 

Let's start with truth though. Truth is a good place to start just about anything, so why not? Truth is everything. Truth is not a quality that permeates everything, or the source from which everything comes. It is EVERYTHING, the material that we can touch and smell, the thoughts we have, our emotions. Another name for truth then becomes, "what is." Perceiving this is oneness.

 

The perception of oneness is not all or nothing, though it can seem that way. The only way that we might honestly use the term, "oneness," is if we have a perception that encompasses all things. However, this perception usually (though apparently not always) starts out as something more like a sheen on the surface of all things, rather than their very substance. To perceive this sheen is quite profound. It is not everyone who notices that everything one perceives, or can imagine, is the same in some immediate way. It is natural to focus upon this perception, since it is the only thing that we experience that is all encompassing. It is magnetic. However, in this focusing upon the sheen of things, sometimes we miss the substance, which does not seem quite so all encompassing. It is fortunate that the lure of just the sheen of things eventually begins to wane. It is inherently unsatisfactory, and we are drawn more deeply into the substance of things. We are drawn into all that stuff that doesn't seem to quite fit into our new perception.

 

What happens from there varies widely from person to person. In the bigger picture, however, oneness expands and expands, until one day we find ourselves right smack in the middle of everything, and everything we can see or imagine or feel is us.

 

Actually, I'm not sure if this ever happens in a complete way. To perceive what is, with that level of certainty, is likely the potential trap of oneness, just as to perceive nothingness (which is neither here nor there ) with absolute certainty is the potential trap of nothingness. We can never know what is. We can only continue to be it.

 

There is a point at which oneness really comes home, though, and we realize that it is not a matter of perceiving oneness, but of being it. Oneness is all of our illusions. It is everything we ever wanted to escape. It is everything we ever feared, everything we ever hated, everything that bored us to death.

 

When we realize that, our response to all those things tends to change. We can see how previous actions are actually the reasons for what is currently happening. More importantly we begin to see the principles involved, that there are ways of acting, tendencies of action, that create everything we hate. We notice that the tendency that leads to suffering, both solid and psychological, is a would be movement away from what is. This is where "one fighting" becomes conscious. Before, "two fighting" seemed to be the rule, but we drop out of that, and fighting just goes on. That is because there is a momentum to existence, as past seeds bear fruit. It is resistance to that fruit, which is the planting of more seeds.

 

All that seed stuff is just moralistic junk, which might be just the thing for some people at some times, but it doesn't have robust life until it is rooted in the direct perception of oneness.

 

The switch from "two fighting" to "one fighting" can happen at any time though, and it is the basis from which the direct perception of oneness (and of nothingness) develops. All that is needed is an intuition that perhaps the struggle isn't where truth will be found, and a willingness to keep our eyes open without the struggle. This is essentially what all true meditation is. It is also known as surrender, and is something that most of us have experienced at one time or another, even if its only to a cold, or to a bad day. Its often amazing what happens after that.

[zenbrook]

It's a great word , isnt it. Would be a good name for a breakfast cereal.

Perhaps, in line with Chod's ethos and imagery - a breakfast cereal-killer?

 

Poor, I know.

ZenB

[Ian]

Nice post.