What Are "Legitimate" Qi Abilities/Power?

[BaguaKicksAss]

I spent the day building a table and cleaning up the temple... I suddenly feel as though the table needs some more reinforcement, and the temple needs a little more tidying . Is that seriously 50 new posts?!

 

Though this thread is a lot of fun when checking IPs .

[BaguaKicksAss]

Does anyone here comprehend how vast Asia is, and how many adepts there are over there whose skills and mastery are on par, if not supersede John Chang's (benefit of doubt given that he indeed possesses some juice)? Its really a waste of time to regurgitate mo pai ala john chang as if this combination is the new viagra of the hype-filled world of nei gung or whatever Gung it should be appropriately called.

 

If anyone has the financial means, do leave the confines of where you are cozy at, and take an extended tour of countries like Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, Thailand, Malaysia and Japan... just to expand one's horizons, and really see for oneself, up close, whats out there in terms of fruits of years of cultivation practices. Doing so really helps to overcome a lot of limitations and skewed views.

 

Someone I know lived in china a few years, and traveled around a lot. Being a martial artist he of course tried to look up internal martial arts and qigong people/teachers. He said that unfortunately most of it is watered down these days with not much left of it. So I'm hoping that perhaps he is wrong, and that maybe only half of it is... I am honestly curious and really do have no idea.

[thelerner]

Someone I know lived in china a few years, and traveled around a lot. Being a martial artist he of course tried to look up internal martial arts and qigong people/teachers. He said that unfortunately most of it is watered down these days with not much left of it. So I'm hoping that perhaps he is wrong, and that maybe only half of it is... I am honestly curious and really do have no idea.

I wonder if the sad truth is that has always been the case. That our impression of past greatness is because we only hear about the greats; the masses are always ..watered down.. Maybe it was ever thus..

 

Still I think with knowledge, dedication and some luck, there are masters out there teaching and even without them there are crumbs to follow that lead to some pretty high stuff. Particularly now.

[NotVoid]

Not misleading. Setting something on fire and medical qigong are two totally different things approached in two totally different ways, with the exception of basic gongfu. One does not imply the other.

Let me give an example of what I am referring to. Go up to a practitioner who has reached a good level with qi projection and is knowledgeable in medical qigong and ask them to set something on fire. No harm done - you asked. But MOST will either laugh at you or ignore you as it serves no purpose regardless of whether they could or could not do it. Now go up to a person who can set something on fire and ask them to work on a particular dis-ease. Would most people want to be worked on simply because the practitioner could set something on fire and were thought to be "powerful"? Knowledge of one doesn't imply the other.

 

I have no problem with John Chang or anyone else doing their healing work and applaud it. Personally, I see nothing whatsoever about setting something on fire as a good thing to promote qi manipulation and it dang sure doesn't promote medical qigong. I think the most thing I have seen with it is that it brings out those who want to duplicate it so they can show off at parties (Oh man is that cool!). It also brings about threads on forums so people can talk like they know something about qi manipulation when in fact they have never actually practiced it nor studied it.

 

If a person wishes to study medical qigong that is what they should study. It is a whole and complicated field of study just like western medicine is a whole and complicated field of study.

 

Hi Ya Mu. I never said anything about medical qigong. As you no doubt know, 'medical qigong' is a more recent term for some modern developed qigong healing practices in China. There have however been many different long standing traditional qigong/neigong (yes, I know the term qigong is a more modern term as well) traditions which may incorporate different practices such as martial arts, meditation, and associated qi development practices, and many of these systems also include their own traditional qigong healing methods in their tradition as well. My point was just to clarify that at least two well known qigong practitioners who have demonstrated the types of qigong skill which was mentioned, are also both well respected qigong healers. In other words, they are able to use their qigong skills in various ways, not just in putting on occasional interesting demos. Your suggestion that such skills are not of any practical use overlooks that these people are able to use these same qigong skills in various other ways such as in diagnosis and healing applications, and martial arts applications. It is not really either of these two person's fault that what they do may greatly upset some people's world views, or make some people act inappropriately. Often when people's belief systems are challenged they may become very dismissive or launch uninformed and unfounded attacks and that sort of thing, as can sometimes be seen here. With that I will bow out of this conversation as it does not appear that such a topic can be discussed in a productive and respectful way in this environment.

Edited March 2, 2014 by NotVoid

[BaguaKicksAss]

Medical qigong just like medical reiki is just placebo.

 

If you want something real, sour grapes won't cut it.

 

I'll take a "placebo" that cures cancer a half decent amount of the time.

 

Er about the whole sour grapes thing; I think I have to go make tea .... in my.... kettle.... .

[Nungali]

When we mention Power its not too long til a repetitive insult circle forms. It gets nasty, then sent into The Pit. Why don't we drop the drama and old feuds and get back to the OP.

 

 

Legitimate Qi Powers.. I wonder if the shamanistic traditions gives us the best indication of what they are? What are the common threads that run through shamanism? In many ways shamanism is at the root of Daoism.

 

Awww ... I was looking forward to this... probably paddling upstream in a barbed wire canoe by now, but ...

 

In relationship to shamanism and healing , the most common denominator seems to be ' soul retrieval ' .

 

Perhaps something the whole of Western Cultlre could do with a dose of ?

 

There is also 'assumption of animal forms' .

 

Knowledge of local botany and 'pharmaceuticals ' .

 

....

Edited March 2, 2014 by Nungali

[BaguaKicksAss]

Yes, you are free to your opinion, but, if your opinion is about an actual system/school/teaching and your intent is to judge/bad mouth/criticize it, you better have good and authentic knowledge of it. Your argument, with the intent to discredit and criticize our school/system/teaching is very flawed and ignorant. It goes to show the kind of person you are. There is no Mopai website that is created to be the official Mopai website, permitted by the master of the lineage. There was a website pretending to be the "official" Mopai website, but, the school has dispute it and it was then shut down. If there are more websites popping out pretending to be the official site, please be very careful and do not trust its information. The 72 levels of Mopai are actually not as people understand it to be. This is actually a misunderstanding people have of Mopai and its teachings. Mopai is not from Wudang nor is it associated with Wudang. John Chang mentioned Zhang San Feng not as its ancestor. If it was perceived so, it was a misunderstanding. As to the Mopai technique, it does not and never promote semen retention. It was referring to the practitioner having to take a break from the meditation after having sex. You do not have any knowledge of Mopai's teachings and techniques, so I suggest be humble and do not try to act all knowing. So once again, please refrain from passing judgement on a system or school that you have NO idea of. Instead of doing that, be humble and mind your own practice. If you have any questions on Mopai or its system, you can ask us. If it is allowed, we will try to clear up any misinformation. I suggest courtesy towards other schools and systems. A true honorable person does not get his reputation by spouting out nonsense on a practice/system that he/she is ignorant of. Thank you for understanding.

 

I have to ask, and I mean no disrespect by this at all, just really want to know. How do we know that you in particular (or any other members here for that matter) are legit/proper MoPai folks?

 

I've only ever seen one member on here actually from Indonesia.... so I have to admit a bit of skepticism; well OK the whole none of us use our real names likely doesn't help either.

 

My apologies if I missed a really important thread or information on this. Also please do not take this personally at all, and please understand with so many people on here claiming to have MoPai info I am quite skeptical. (though to be honest while I respect MoPai, I'm more asking for the benefit of the board and others than myself, since I prefer systems which would actually teach me / have more info available ).

[tongkosong]

I have to ask, and I mean no disrespect by this at all, just really want to know. How do we know that you in particular (or any other members here for that matter) are legit/proper MoPai folks?

 

I've only ever seen one member on here actually from Indonesia.... so I have to admit a bit of skepticism; well OK the whole none of us use our real names likely doesn't help either.

 

My apologies if I missed a really important thread or information on this. Also please do not take this personally at all, and please understand with so many people on here claiming to have MoPai info I am quite skeptical. (though to be honest while I respect MoPai, I'm more asking for the benefit of the board and others than myself, since I prefer systems which would actually teach me / have more info available ).

 

No worries, as I understand that with the anonymity of hiding behind the internet does lead to misinformation and suspicion. I know the person who is commenting from Indonesia, with the username of "______indo", is the person you mentioned with an IP address from Indonesia. There are other Mopai students (Chinese Indonesians) who contribute posts in this forum. We are Mopai students, who originated from Indonesia, but take residence outside of Indonesia.

 

How do we prove ourselves as Mopai students! Well, this is a good question. The only thing I can say for myself is the intimate information I have in regards to Mopai. Only those with real knowledge of Mopai will know if what I am saying is right or wrong. Truthfully, we know each other's username, and if I am providing false information, or pretending to be a Mopai student, you can bet other Mopai students will tell you so. The real reason why I come to this forum is to dispute blatantly false information that can harm someone's well-being (when it is Mopai's technique related), or to defend our school's honor and good name. I understand many people do not appreciate some of our school's history , techniques, or policies. As at various times, people do argue vehemently about these. I try to, if I can, provide the correct information. You can still not believe me and I appreciate that, however, I have not benefitted from my posts, nor have I tried to sell anyone Mopai's techniques. Actually, I have tried not to post too much or meddle in arguments. However, if I see anyone besmirching Mopai's or John Chang's reputation, as a student, it is my duty to confront him/her. I don't think this is unusual or encouraging a "battle of egos".

 

[BaguaKicksAss]

No worries, as I understand that with the anonymity of hiding behind the internet does lead to misinformation and suspicion. I know the person who is commenting from Indonesia, with the username of "______indo", is the person you mentioned with an IP address from Indonesia. There are other Mopai students (Chinese Indonesians) who contribute posts in this forum. We are Mopai students, who originated from Indonesia, but take residence outside of Indonesia. How do we prove ourselves as Mopai students! Well, this is a good question. The only thing I can say for myself is the intimate information I have in regards to Mopai. Only those with real knowledge of Mopai will know if what I am saying is right or wrong. Truthfully, we know each other's username, and if I am providing false information, or pretending to be a Mopai student, you can bet other Mopai students will tell you so. The real reason why I come to this forum is to dispute blatantly false information that can harm someone's well-being (when it is Mopai's technique related), or to defend our school's honor and good name. I understand many people do not appreciate some of our school's history , techniques, or policies. As at various times, people do argue vehemently about these. I try to, if I can, provide the correct information. You can still not believe me and I appreciate that, however, I have not benefitted from my posts, nor have I tried to sell anyone Mopai's techniques. Actually, I have tried not to post too much or meddle in arguments. However, if I see anyone besmirching Mopai's or John Chang's reputation, as a student, it is my duty to confront him/her. I don't think this is unusual or encouraging a "battle of egos".

 

Wow, I didn't realize there were any legit MoPai people around (again no offense meant, but I hope you understand).

 

Tongkosong gets the Tech seal of approval . Well actually also the I did far too much research and asked too many questions over time, and he gave the right answer to my test question, seal of approval. While I haven't gone so far as to pester folks to confirm that he is with the school, I will say he's definitely not one of the MP scammers, and from all I can tell likely is part of the school.

 

I'm also happy that there are a couple of MoPai posters around here who are not Lucas or Elijah .

 

I have one question . As I understand it, actual legit MoPai people do not charge money for the teachings or teaching materials, correct?

 

While I'm at it, I'll just apologize for most of the TTBs MP posts, now.... (if it makes you feel any better at all a bunch of them have been sock puppets of the 2 above mentioned folks). Unfortunately the more difficult, or impossible, something is made to get, the more people want it.

[tongkosong]

Wow, I didn't realize there were any legit MoPai people around (again no offense meant, but I hope you understand).

 

Tongkosong gets the Tech seal of approval . Well actually also the I did far too much research and asked too many questions over time, and he gave the right answer to my test question, seal of approval. While I haven't gone so far as to pester folks to confirm that he is with the school, I will say he's definitely not one of the MP scammers, and from all I can tell likely is part of the school.

 

I'm also happy that there are a couple of MoPai posters around here who are not Lucas or Elijah .

 

I have one question . As I understand it, actual legit MoPai people do not charge money for the teachings or teaching materials, correct?

 

While I'm at it, I'll just apologize for most of the TTBs MP posts, now.... (if it makes you feel any better at all a bunch of them have been sock puppets of the 2 above mentioned folks). Unfortunately the more difficult, or impossible, something is made to get, the more people want it.

 

No, we were never charged money for any teachings. As far as I know, no "inner student" of Mopai ever benefitted, monetarily, from teachings. We were sworn to never use the knowledge we received, from Mopai's teachings and techniques, to use as a means of monetary benefit.

 

You do not need to apologize for posting any comments on our school/system. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, as long as it is done with respect and non-malice. Arguments happen all the time. If not, in my opinion, progress can't be made.

[BaguaKicksAss]

OK so MoPai teaches patience, got it .

[C T]

[Thunder_Gooch]

Sorry tongkosong, you are not mopai expert even though you are an actual student of John Chang. Everyone knows more_pie_guy is the authority on everything mopai since he can quote magus of java better than everyone, and we all know that book is the utimate truth on neigong. So unless you battle and beat more_pie_guy on quoting magus of java, you have no power here.

You either care about what Chang taught his students or you don't No Cause. I care.

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

I'll take a "placebo" that cures cancer a half decent amount of the time.

 

Er about the whole sour grapes thing; I think I have to go make tea .... in my.... kettle.... .

 

Lot's of people get cancer and recover on their own when their immune system discovers it, they would have gotten better treatment or no treatment.

 

The thing is just like Reki, these healers provide a catalyst for people to believe they will get better.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Thunder_Gooch

[Ya Mu]

 

Hi Ya Mu. I never said anything about medical qigong. As you no doubt know, 'medical qigong' is a more recent term for some modern developed qigong healing practices in China. There have however been many different long standing traditional qigong/neigong (yes, I know the term qigong is a more modern term as well) traditions which may incorporate different practices such as martial arts, meditation, and associated qi development practices, and many of these systems also include their own traditional qigong healing methods in their tradition as well. My point was just to clarify that at least two well known qigong practitioners who have demonstrated the types of qigong skill which was mentioned, are also both well respected qigong healers. In other words, they are able to use their qigong skills in various ways, not just in putting on occasional interesting demos. Your suggestion that such skills are not of any practical use overlooks that these people are able to use these same qigong skills in various other ways such as in diagnosis and healing applications, and martial arts applications. It is not really either of these two person's fault that what they do may greatly upset some people's world views, or make some people act inappropriately. Often when people's belief systems are challenged they may become very dismissive or launch uninformed and unfounded attacks and that sort of thing, as can sometimes be seen here. With that I will bow out of this conversation as it does not appear that such a topic can be discussed in a productive and respectful way in this environment.

The collection of healing practices are now called medical qigong and have been for quite sometime so my referral to them as medical qigong is accurate. But I have no problem with referring to them as wai qi liao fa and do so often.

You list 2 people who do both setting thinks on fire and healing practices. I am just saying the fact that both of these fellows can do both doesn't mean the two things are related, except in basic gongfu practice.

One of my points was that in terms of healing/starting fire one doesn't have anything to do with the other as the only real commonality is the basic gongfu. Since the two are not really related, the practical use of starting fire would only be starting fire and unrelated to healing practices. The other point was that IMO starting fire is not a good way to promote medical qigong (or any other way you wish to call it of healing with energy, wai qi liao fa). And I gave an example to support my view.

The concession to your point is that yes, the basic gongfu of learning wai qi liao fa could possibly lead to the ability for a person to set things on fire. But it really is two different vibrational energetics.

There is no reason for you to drop out of the conversation.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Ya Mu

[C T]

Someone I know lived in china a few years, and traveled around a lot. Being a martial artist he of course tried to look up internal martial arts and qigong people/teachers. He said that unfortunately most of it is watered down these days with not much left of it. So I'm hoping that perhaps he is wrong, and that maybe only half of it is... I am honestly curious and really do have no idea.

The challenge seems to arise in the fact that most of those with authentic mastery tend to be 'hidden'. But not completely inaccessible. A close American-Vietnamese friend had 3 of his friends (martial artists all) visit a master in China to pay their respect and request teachings. He told me that they found the master, and one day, during a casual walk with him, the group saw the master picked up a stone, hurled it into the air, and then froze the bloody thing in mid air as it was falling back down. Unfortunately, its only hearsay, so take it with a bit of salt and sugar.

 

Personally, as mentioned before, i know there are many, many people all over Malaysia who can demonstrate all kinds of super stuff, some tricksters, some seem authentic, and a handful who actually can deliver the goods. Again, these handful of adepts are usually quite hard to find, so one needs to know people who know people, and start the trail of discovery from there. There used to be a hermit i know who lives by the limestone caves somewhere in Perak, Malaysia, but this was like 20 or so years back, so not sure if he is still around. He had extraordinary healing abilities, and performs difficult exorcisms with great results. Some claim he can levitate, but this has not been verified. The next time i go back, i will do some checking and report back. Not sure when, maybe in a couple of months or so.

[SonOfTheGods]

This reminds me of religious fanatics.

They have one book, and believe with faith, and hearsay.

These people live inside a box, with rigid boundaries.

Rather than learning the truth, they stick to their long departed heroes, and repeat the same old, tired and discarded mantras of yesteryear.

Show them science, technology, real proven truth- and they in turn will tell you --you are the jealous one-- because you do not have what they "secretly possess".

However, asking them what they "secretly possess".. will turn into a diversion, a circus, or derailing of the conversation.

These people can not be taught.

They have brainwashed themselves beyond repair- deliberately.

Talking to "Some" people on TaoBums, sometimes.. feels like I am talking to someone, who knocks at my door, at 8AM, telling me --"the good news"..

[ChiDragon]

Once my Testersterone decreased with age, and I refused to take drugs, (as I always rejected drugs and the easy way out)- Qi is the only alternative.

 

I wanted to stress there is No age limit for Qi.

 

 

But, you're correct

 

You want no age limit for Chi, then, you need practice Chi Kung like everybody else. The "Chi" you are talking about is the body energy which is to be constantly generated in your body. However, you must provide fuels for the body to generated it. For more details, pleas PM me. Thanks.

Edited March 2, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Thunder_Gooch]

This reminds me of religious fanatics.

 

Do want something real, or do you want systems no one has ever accomplished anything with?

 

Most people I meet are engaged in a game of make believe, and live their lives out pretending they will accomplish something via their spiritual practices.

 

They wind up dying like dogs like everyone else, but at least they were entertained for the ride.

 

Some people want something real, that actually leads somewhere.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Thunder_Gooch

[BaguaKicksAss]

 

 

Lot's of people get cancer and recover on their own when their immune system discovers it, they would have gotten better treatment or no treatment.

 

The thing is just like Reki, these healers provide a catalyst for people to believe they will get better.

 

Tumors shrinking on their own? Sources please.

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

Tumors shrinking on their own? Sources please.

 

 

http://dartmed.dartmouth.edu/spring09/html/disc_remission.php

 

"When cancer suddenly disappears, people may call it a miracle. But a recent study by three physician-researchers from DMS and Norway found that spontaneous remission of breast cancer is actually quite common. More than one in five invasive cancers detected in the study by mammography vanished without ever being treated."

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312698/

 

"The spontaneous healing of cancer is a phenomenon that has been observed for hundreds and thousands of years and after having been the subject of many controversies, it is now accepted as an indisputable fact."

Edited March 2, 2014 by Thunder_Gooch

[BaguaKicksAss]

The challenge seems to arise in the fact that most of those with authentic mastery tend to be 'hidden'. But not completely inaccessible. A close American-Vietnamese friend had 3 of his friends (martial artists all) visit a master in China to pay their respect and request teachings. He told me that they found the master, and one day, during a casual walk with him, the group saw the master picked up a stone, hurled it into the air, and then froze the bloody thing in mid air as it was falling back down. Unfortunately, its only hearsay, so take it with a bit of salt and sugar.

 

Personally, as mentioned before, i know there are many, many people all over Malaysia who can demonstrate all kinds of super stuff, some tricksters, some seem authentic, and a handful who actually can deliver the goods. Again, these handful of adepts are usually quite hard to find, so one needs to know people who know people, and start the trail of discovery from there. There used to be a hermit i know who lives by the limestone caves somewhere in Perak, Malaysia, but this was like 20 or so years back, so not sure if he is still around. He had extraordinary healing abilities, and performs difficult exorcisms with great results. Some claim he can levitate, but this has not been verified. The next time i go back, i will do some checking and report back. Not sure when, maybe in a couple of months or so.

 

While things things are pretty awesome; all I personally care about is if they have the internal principals of martial arts and the healing connected with that . I am still not sure for myself whether doing nifty stuff you don't usually see people doing actually relates 100% to advancement in martial arts and etc. or not.

 

I'm surprised the person I know didn't find more than one legit traditional teacher (though one is plenty) while there, as he did speak the language and definitely did some hunting. We are a bit spoiled here back in Canada though, with a rather large asian population and MANY martial arts teachers (20 just for Bagua in this city), though unfortunately most have gone the wushu route . I'm tempted to make a trip over to the places mentioned at some point... though for me personally I'll take about any excuse to travel .

 

Now it could be relevant to magic in some way, but with that sort of thing I have a super awesome path already, so am good to go there and don't need to travel (much).

[BaguaKicksAss]

This reminds me of religious fanatics.

 

They have one book, and believe with faith, and hearsay.

 

These people live inside a box, with rigid boundaries.

 

Rather than learning the truth, they stick to their long departed heroes, and repeat the same old, tired and discarded mantras of yesteryear.

 

Show them science, technology, real proven truth- and they in turn will tell you --you are the jealous one-- because you do not have what they "secretly possess".

 

However, asking them what they "secretly possess".. will turn into a diversion, a circus, or derailing of the conversation.

 

These people can not be taught.

 

They have brainwashed themselves beyond repair- deliberately.

 

Talking to "Some" people on TaoBums, sometimes.. feels like I am talking to someone, who knocks at my door, at 8AM, telling me --"the good news"..

 

While most folks of the major religions have their heads up their nether regions IMO, there are also others who actually take their path seriously, practice, and came in with some amazing natural talent, who exhibit some pretty amazing talents! I feel this is the same for any particular path. (PS I have ceremonial magicians trying to convert me all the time )

[BaguaKicksAss]

 

http://dartmed.dartmouth.edu/spring09/html/disc_remission.php

 

"When cancer suddenly disappears, people may call it a miracle. But a recent study by three physician-researchers from DMS and Norway found that spontaneous remission of breast cancer is actually quite common. More than one in five invasive cancers detected in the study by mammography vanished without ever being treated."

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312698/

 

"The spontaneous healing of cancer is a phenomenon that has been observed for hundreds and thousands of years and after having been the subject of many controversies, it is now accepted as an indisputable fact."

 

These are awesome, thank you .

 

Early detection is the single most important....

 

Though I was looking more for articles about full blown tumors suddenly shrinking dramatically or vanishing. Remission is fortunately quite a bit more common. Tumors vanishing is nearly unheard of apparently, but obviously does happen.

 

Some stuff from google scholar or the various university cancer research centers would be interesting if you have those sorts of links . Detailed case histories, or research findings would rock. (that first article/link falls pretty short in the way of proper scientific and medical study, but still awesome).

 

PS I think spontaneous remission has a greater success rate than radiation from all I've heard. Btw, here's a book you might be interested in (there's one for 25cents) http://www.amazon.com/The-Cancer-Industry-Classic-Establishment/dp/1557784396/

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

Though I was looking more for articles about full blown tumors suddenly shrinking dramatically or vanishing.

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/27/health/27canc.html

 

 

"A young man may have a lump in his testicle, but when doctors remove the organ all they find is a big scar. The tumor that was there is gone. Or, they see a large scar and a tiny tumor because more than 95 percent of the tumor had disappeared on its own by the time the testicle was removed."

 

http://ispub.com/IJPA/8/1/10901

 

"Spontaneous regression of cancer is one of the most fascinating phenomenons observed in medicine, where the malignant tissue mass partially or completely disappears without treatment.12 Spontaneous regression has been documented for many types of cancers, it is postulated that an intriguing but extremely effective mechanism is engaged in eradicating cancer cells after the development of advanced malignancy."