A Basic Primer For the Healing Arts From China

[grady]

Kevin, thanks for your views. Myself I find sharing the views of both yourself and the opposite side of the coin.

For one thing, unlike IMO far too many who get involved in Chinese Therapeutics, I am not anti-western medicine. My view is the concept of what I refer to as "world medicine". Let's take the whole of what the world offers that works and chunk out what doesn't.

 

I'm afraid I disagree with Kevin quite a bit more strongly than you, Ya Mu. I just deleted a point by point response to his essay, deciding that we're better off just agreeing to disagree.

 

I'm not "anti-western medicine" either, far from it, but I can't quite jump on the "world medicine" bandwagon either … as much as there are incredibly difficult challenges to a "unified field theory" in physics, there are equally difficult challenges in unifying the conceptual frameworks of Western biomedicine and classical Chinese medicine without throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water, much less the conceptual frameworks of other medical traditions.

 

Institutionalized TCM does an injustice to itself and everyone else in downplaying that simple fact.

[Ya Mu]

I'm afraid I disagree with Kevin quite a bit more strongly than you, Ya Mu. I just deleted a point by point response to his essay, deciding that we're better off just agreeing to disagree.

 

I'm not "anti-western medicine" either, far from it, but I can't quite jump on the "world medicine" bandwagon either … as much as there are incredibly difficult challenges to a "unified field theory" in physics, there are equally difficult challenges in unifying the conceptual frameworks of Western biomedicine and classical Chinese medicine without throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water, much less the conceptual frameworks of other medical traditions.

 

Institutionalized TCM does an injustice to itself and everyone else in downplaying that simple fact.

Hi Grady,

And thank you for posting your views. I am attempting to keep my personal bias against TCM out of the equation with my responses as I do realize TCM, even though I personally am no fan, has helped many people, and that is what it is all about. Oh, I could go on a perfectly personal justified righteous indignation rant against it but I will try not to except to say that some of the TCM schools are churning out students who go out there and are causing more chaos than doing good. I would balance this by saying I have seen other TCM schools which produce a more balanced doctor and, to be fair, I have seen the western medical schools churning out OMG what-the-hell-is-that person-doing-in-medicine people. Just look at the mass of "nurse practitioners" who go out there believing themselves to be doctors but do not have the in-depth drug training that a MD has. To be perfectly fair, of course there are some good and even great nurse practitioners. But I see a dangerous tendency towards dilution of patient care and the situation is already chaotic as it is with the internal corruption and power struggle of the drug and insurance industries law contributions. "standard of care" - huh?

 

As to western medicine, anyone looking at it objectively can see there are times when western medicine is called for and there are all the other times when CCM is the much better approach. For example: Gunshot wound, rushed to the hospital. Which is better? Well, actually both. There should be a medical qigong doctor there to help stabilize the person initially while the surgeon is prepped, then after the western doctor does their expertise, help the patient recover. Then follow up by CCM herbal medicine or western medicine whichever is more appropriate in any given situation. THAT would be more the world medicine approach I see. Another example is the stroke patient I mention in this threadhttp://thetaobums.com/topic/33921-what-are-legitimate-qi-abilitiespower/page-14 We could have been arrogant and said "This CCM clinic is all this person needs!" but we would have been wrong as we all knew that a follow up with the western medicine hospital was the appropriate thing. THEN, after being stabilized fully, a follow up in the CCM clinic would have been appropriate. This is my concept of world medicine.

[SecretGrotto]

A small story here: I saw a licensed western physician tell an old lady who was complaining about a certain ailment to get an egg, go out and bury it during the next full moon (which was coming up that weekend), and say "-particular words-".

 

And one should probably not underestimate what a little time under the rays of a full moon can do for one's energy body and health

[Ya Mu]

And one should probably not underestimate what a little time under the rays of a full moon can do for one's energy body and health

Full moon is very powerful. On the contrary side, people with pain syndromes tend to hurt a lot worse.

 

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Notvoid said, " In my view, all talk of higher and lower level and most authentic and best method and all that is really of no concern at all when you go to a healer."

I said, "..misunderstanding about how I utilize the terms "higher level" and "lower level""

 

The manner in which I was taught Chinese medicine included the following information about the levels:

 

Low Level - Concerned with the body.

Mid-Level - Concerned with the mind.

High-Level - The one and only goal of the practitioner is to help the person achieve their destiny. Destiny here refers to that which the person themselves has chosen to accomplish here on Earth.

 

I am not the only teacher in the USA who has said this but I admit it is not the most prevalent concept taught in schools here nor in TCM. In a workshop many years ago with Efrem Korngold, he said the same thing as I do. I was very surprised and of course delighted to hear him say this as many appear to not have learned this concept.

 

--------------------------------------------

Aksijaha said ,"When you (specifically) start mixing up Native American methods with your Qi gong.. it's kinda a bummer and sends some people running and screaming the other direction."

Ken Cohen, who is an acquaintance and who I believe to be a good teacher, also "mixes" Native American methods with Qigong. And I believe there are several other teachers who do so.

 

Actually, there is a misconception here. In my certification program and in my regular workshops I do not teach ANY Native American healing; only neigong & medical qigong. I do so only to some particular advanced practitioners AFTER they have completed the 500 hours of training. That is not to say that I think there would be anything wrong with it. Now, do I use Native American concepts that are synonymous with higher level neigong concepts when I do the awakening "Lighting the Fire" energy projection in my workshops? Yes. And it works very well.

I have told this story before but it certainly applies here:

I had just spent several days on top of a mountain with a medicine man and shortly after this I flew to China to visit Master Wang. I had purchased him a medicine drum with nice paintings and I was going to surprise him with my ability to project qi down the sound waves of the drum. HA! After I demonstrated, he said, "Very good!" "Now let me show you how WE do it."

 

The moral of this story is that advanced neigong healing practices descend from shamanic roots and that higher level practices are really the same. So if anyone wishes to "run away" they really should do just that as these type practices are not meant for them. It is much easier for a person to do just about anything else with their life.

[Baguakid]

You could try something radical (progressively done of course) like a 100-day fast.

 

The Fasting Regime of the Zhonghuang jing

 

 

and also look into Baguazhang, a real and powerful healing art.

 

 

Which Bagua style do you suggest?

[Gerard]

Any as long as you are guided by a good teacher. This last two words cannot be bargained, they are hard to find...but it is even harder to find a good student.

[z00se]

 

In my experience it is also not that uncommon for various qigong teachers/healers to state outright or let on to you that what they are doing is the 'best method' or 'highest level' or 'most authentic' practice etc., and that what other people do is inferior.

 

 

I agree, and I think it doesn't rely on the 'higher' level at all. The highest level is present in the deepest of the lowest level, as can be seen by the white dot in the black of the yin yang. The highest level relies on the lowest level, and vise vesa. You don't need to foresee the greatest picture because taking such a high level approach may be so long sighted that person looking for results don't persist long enough to start getting the benefits of healing on a physical level.

 

And as to 'more refined', sure it is, but that doesn't make it better. Refined white sugar is sweeter, but not necessarily better.

 

TCM is fantastic, but there are so many different types of TCM, it is not a standardized approach (although it is more so becoming that way) and so different doctors using different understandings can have exceptional results in their own specific field. It is a rough guiding framework than any set of rules. The 5 elements, yin and yang and the meridians & TCM view of organs are all very real and correct. It's when you get to the nitty gritty details, without understanding how you came to those nitty gritty details, as would be read in a book without your own personal experience, as is cultivated through qigong and meditation, that it can all fall apart. The person doesn't have the expertise or experience to use such detailed and refined TCM knowledge and so it seems that TCM becomes incompetent, when this is not true at all. TCM many different theories can be used for the same situation, some are more correct than others, the more specific you get the more likely it will be less correct.

 

I know that good people produce good results and in the absence of good people in different methods, the one person who seems to have good results, their view seems to gain the most attention, however this should not be the case.

 

To be honest i think most people want their physical problems fixed and are less interested in whether they fulfill their destiny or not. I think high level is not the aim, the best or anything like that, it is just a part of the complete picture that needs to be addressed along with the low level stuff. The low level stuff that can be more easily felt can also add the benefit of placebo effect. By taking a rounded high mid and low level to healing you can treat the widest range of people and illnesses. Taking a single approach you may get a greater 'wow' factor in some specific instances but all round it won't be best, how can it? Balance is health, high level alone is not balance, balance in all is balance all around. I'm not picking, being subtle or anything to anybody, i'm just saying the truth exactly as i see it.

Edited March 9, 2014 by z00se

[Baguakid]

Any as long as you are guided by a good teacher. This last two words cannot be bargained, they are hard to find...but it is even harder to find a good student.

What basic principles would identify a good bagua system taught right?

[C T]

The highest level is present in the deepest of the lowest level...

Yes! So simple to see, yet so overlooked.

[Ya Mu]

I agree, and I think it doesn't rely on the 'higher' level at all. The highest level is present in the deepest of the lowest level, as can be seen by the white dot in the black of the yin yang. The highest level relies on the lowest level, and vise vesa. You don't need to foresee the greatest picture because taking such a high level approach may be so long sighted that person looking for results don't persist long enough to start getting the benefits of healing on a physical level.

 

And as to 'more refined', sure it is, but that doesn't make it better. Refined white sugar is sweeter, but not necessarily better.

 

TCM is fantastic, but there are so many different types of TCM, it is not a standardized approach (although it is more so becoming that way) and so different doctors using different understandings can have exceptional results in their own specific field. It is a rough guiding framework than any set of rules. The 5 elements, yin and yang and the meridians & TCM view of organs are all very real and correct. It's when you get to the nitty gritty details, without understanding how you came to those nitty gritty details, as would be read in a book without your own personal experience, as is cultivated through qigong and meditation, that it can all fall apart. The person doesn't have the expertise or experience to use such detailed and refined TCM knowledge and so it seems that TCM becomes incompetent, when this is not true at all. TCM many different theories can be used for the same situation, some are more correct than others, the more specific you get the more likely it will be less correct.

 

I know that good people produce good results and in the absence of good people in different methods, the one person who seems to have good results, their view seems to gain the most attention, however this should not be the case.

 

To be honest i think most people want their physical problems fixed and are less interested in whether they fulfill their destiny or not. I think high level is not the aim, the best or anything like that, it is just a part of the complete picture that needs to be addressed along with the low level stuff. The low level stuff that can be more easily felt can also add the benefit of placebo effect. By taking a rounded high mid and low level to healing you can treat the widest range of people and illnesses. Taking a single approach you may get a greater 'wow' factor in some specific instances but all round it won't be best, how can it? Balance is health, high level alone is not balance, balance in all is balance all around. I'm not picking, being subtle or anything to anybody, i'm just saying the truth exactly as i see it.

Thanks for your views.

 

"I think it doesn't rely on the 'higher' level at all. The highest level is present in the deepest of the lowest level, as can be seen by the white dot in the black of the yin yang. The highest level relies on the lowest level, and vise vesa. You don't need to foresee the greatest picture because taking such a high level approach may be so long sighted that person looking for results don't persist long enough to start getting the benefits of healing on a physical level."

 

There are several problems with this statement.

The "highest level" cannot be in the "lowest level" if the practitioner is ignorant that it even exists. Which the majority are.

The results of the higher level approach are higher efficacy than a lower level approach as each level includes the previous level. As in mid-level includes body AND mind. So you are say that a practitioner concerned with and working only with the body will get as good, and you imply better, results than one working with the body & mind both. I highly disagree. And of course you are saying that one who has the knowledge and ability to work at the high-level will get worse results than one who works on the lower level. Not true, as including body, mind & Spirit is so much more powerful than working only on the body. We are WHOLE people including body, mind, & Spirit, not just bodies.

 

Your next paragraph has some good thoughts that I personally agree with, however this statement has problems: "It's when you get to the nitty gritty details, without understanding how you came to those nitty gritty details, as would be read in a book without your own personal experience, as is cultivated through qigong and meditation, that it can all fall apart."

It is not that I disagree totally with the statement, it is that the "cultivated through qigong and meditation" part does not apply to TCM as in general qigong simply is not taught in the TCM schools. In the USA very few have added qigong to their program and medical qigong is almost unheard of. In China they have pretty much chunked all the medical qigong and any form that has to do with anything other than "scientific method of physical exercise" which of course means that the more powerful forms are not taught in the TCM hospitals/schools. The majority of TCM practitioners that come to my classes have no basic knowledge of qi on a personal level as it is all conceptual.

 

"To be honest i think most people want their physical problems fixed and are less interested in whether they fulfill their destiny or not"

Agreed. Their lower level physical aspect usually drives the desire to go "get worked on".

 

No practitioner who does not have a high degree of efficacy lasts in the business. The higher level practitioner usually has an order of magnitude greater efficacy as no stone is left unturned versus turning over only a couple of stones in the garden. If the low-level practitioner doesn't even know the other stones exist how could they possibly work on the whole? They can't.

[NotVoid]

I think the concept of jing, qi, shen is fairly widespread in many traditional Chinese cultivation and healing art systems, including martial arts, Chinese medicine, and meditation and related cultivation practices. Such concepts may have lost some or much of their original importance in more modern derived practices from China however. My understanding is that jing, qi, shen are all interrelated and interdependent, so from that point of view there is really no higher and lower levels, but I do understand the perspective of viewing things that way. Maybe we can say that a good teacher or healer or good practice is able to work with all three. I think martial arts such as tai chi and bagua do have this full jing, qi, shen cultivation aspect built in when taught in a traditional way, and other martial arts such as xing yi and many other martial arts may have this aspect as well included in the training system, if you can find a good traditional teacher that is.

I agree with Gerard that finding a really good teacher (or healer) is not that easy, but in my experience it can make a big difference. I think however you can learn a good foundation of healing qigong practices and arts from less experienced teachers, as long as those less experienced teachers are under the guidance of a good experienced teacher them self, but I think having direct access to a really good teacher can really help.

Regarding Chinese healing and cultivation practices, after long trial and error over the years I personally think that a system that includes practices that work with all of jing, qi, shen are the best overall approach. As I mentioned, I think that practices such as bagua and tai chi taught in a traditional way by a good teacher should have this all built in, but in general I think if you have practices that include exercise for the overall body (doesn't have to be really strenuous and not necessarily at all overly muscle building), full body stretching practices (again doesn't have to be too strenuous) and qi cultivation and/or meditation practices gives a pretty well rounded approach. As I mentioned, I think practices like traditional tai chi and bagua systems have all this pretty much built in, but I think this can be done with separate practices as well to cover the above general aspects. Most traditional systems seem to include all of the above in one form or another.

For healing ailments, I have found that supplementing the above type practices with some self acupressure can help as well. Practices such as tai chi and bagua and other practices which have lots of turning and full body movement and stretching tend to work on the acupressure points and meridians as well by nature of the movements, but for stubborn issues I have found that supplementing with self acupressure can help to break up any stubborn blockages and stagnant qi as well. So in my personal view, thinking in terms of a full system which addresses all of jing, qi, shen is probably a good well rounded way to go. This of course includes eating healthy and using moderation in all aspects of daily life as well, which is also very important. This may be why that just going to a herb doctor alone or acupuncturist alone or whatever may sometimes not be so effective. So, I agree a good cultivation or healing system will be holistic in approach I guess you could say, and yes, this is all just my own view on the matter.

P.S. Gerard, by coincidence or maybe synchronicity, I recently started learning about bigu and how it relates to cultivation. The method you provided a reference to seems quite extreme however. A less extreme approach might be better.

Edited March 10, 2014 by NotVoid

[z00se]

For healing ailments, I have found that supplementing the above type practices with some self acupressure can help as well. Practices such as tai chi and bagua and other practices which have lots of turning and full body movement and stretching tend to work on the acupressure points and meridians as well by nature of the movements, but for stubborn issues I have found that supplementing with self acupressure can help to break up any stubborn blockages and stagnant qi as well. So in my personal view, thinking in terms of a full system which addresses all of jing, qi, shen is probably a good well rounded way to go. This of course includes eating healthy and using moderation in all aspects of daily life as well, which is also very important.

 

Yeah definately. TCM is a theoretical framework you can use to bring about all these different aspects harmoniously, thats my main use for it anyhow.

 

The "highest level" cannot be in the "lowest level" if the practitioner is ignorant that it even exists. Which the majority are.

 

Perhaps beginners, but at advanced levels it is impossible to be ignorant, it seeks you out. At high levels of all martial arts, eastern or western the high levels are present in people who practice. All the arts speak of this. Martial arts are primarily physical in my point of view, although as pointed out tai chi, ba gua specifically aim at all three, however if one practices diligently enough the higher levels will appear in the person practicing whether if they concentrate on it or not.

 

The results of the higher level approach are higher efficacy than a lower level approach as each level includes the previous level. As in mid-level includes body AND mind. So you are say that a practitioner concerned with and working only with the body will get as good, and you imply better, results than one working with the body & mind both. I highly disagree. And of course you are saying that one who has the knowledge and ability to work at the high-level will get worse results than one who works on the lower level. Not true, as including body, mind & Spirit is so much more powerful than working only on the body. We are WHOLE people including body, mind, & Spirit, not just bodies.

 

Each lower level also includes each level above it, it is like a mirror of what you say and it goes both ways. I think you misunderstand me, i don't mean the person working on the physical will get better results. Working on the physical implies also very closely indirectly working on the mind, just like working on the spiritual does, they are equally strongly connected. I think we agree on the fact that working on all three is the best, the whole, a balanced approach. What i feel i do disagree with you on is that you always seem to mention that you practice a 'higher level' qigong (and unless i've misunderstood) that this higher level healing is the best. By concentrating on a Higher level, it's more refined has this and that that the lower levels don't have. However there are equally as many things that the lower levels have that the higher levels don't. Things such as the power of the 5 elements at the mind level (which i'm sure the high level approach uses just as much as the low level approach) and food, herb and specific exercise prescriptions at the lower level. I'm sure you may use these sometimes to a lesser extent, this shows the fact that the lowest level is present even in the very highest level, just like the white dot in the black of the yin yang.

 

I'm not too sure about what's taught where i only know what have spent my time doing, learning very little infact from people teachers, no lineage or anything like that, just learning from my environment and my own experiences. To me personal experiences with qi and the 5 elements within us makes TCM many times more effective, it is like additional practice when you are not practicing on your patients, to get a deeper understanding of how it all works.

 

 

No practitioner who does not have a high degree of efficacy lasts in the business. The higher level practitioner usually has an order of magnitude greater efficacy as no stone is left unturned versus turning over only a couple of stones in the garden. If the low-level practitioner doesn't even know the other stones exist how could they possibly work on the whole? They can't.

Correct the lower level can't, but doesn't need to, if they are skilled they use the physical to make sure that the largest stones in the garden remain set in the correct manner so that the increase in 'higher level' energy automatically turns the smaller stones over by it's self. Sometimes working only at the highest level one could be so busy turning over all the stones that the largest and most important ones roll back by themselves to their original ill-health locations crippling the entire attempt. Not saying that's what all high level practitioners do, but it's just to highlight the equality of a lower and higher level approach.

 

Thanks for your comments Ya Mu, i love hearing another 'higher level' side to what i have intimately experienced myself through concentrating on the physical / mid levels.

[Ya Mu]

When I speak of "High Level" concerning this topic of Chinese Medicine it means just exactly what the definition I gave earlier. If the practitioner has not been trained in this he/she is doing low-mid level depending on the training. It is a specific thing that would be impossible to do if a person has not studied it.

 

I think some of you guys object to my use of the term because you don't like the comparisons. That's OK, but still, if a person hasn't learned this they simply have no basis for for understanding. It can include techniques from anywhere, so it is not just the technique I am referring to.

When I speak of "high Level" neigong I am using the term in the same manner but also a bit differently. I think I have already explained, but High Level Qigong is the level of Light. As In QI Jing Shen Light or Jing Qi Shen Light whichever way one prefers to look at it. Whereas high level taught in CCM is speaking of exactly my earlier definition. It just happen that the two correlate as "Helping a person achieve their Destiny" is the epitome of medicine - nothing can be done that helps a person more. Simply working on the body, no matter how much appreciated that may be, doesn't help this. I now ask a question. What if a low level practitioner worked on someone who had a specific pain that they themselves, on a spiritual level, developed in order to learn a specific thing. Now, what if a higher level practitioner worked on the same person. What could happen is that the low level practitioner helps the person with the pain but does nothing whatsoever towards helping that person achieve their destiny and instead actually interferes with that persons destiny. And remember here, Destiny being defined as what that person decided, on a spiritual level, to accomplish here on Earth.

 

I guess it boils down to, does any particular person believe that they may set themselves up in a particular manner, my above example being pain, for the purpose of a lesson needed to be learned. I have seen this to be true both personally and over and over again in clinic. It is totally amazing, yes, but it most definitely happens. I totally absolutely disagree that a low level practitioner can and will help such a person except through hit or miss whereas the high level practitioner has been trained to go much further than simple pain level. But through the nature of this training pain is eliminated as a side effect because once the thing that the person really needed is taken care of there is no longer a need for the pain. We are speaking of layers and layers. Go to a low level practitioner and they find a cause. A mid level practitioner will find the cause behind the cause. The high level practitioner will find the original cause.

 

I will give a clinical example of what I am referring to. Nearly 20 years ago a young man of 15 was brought to my clinic. He had been through several different chiropractors, multiple acupuncturists, Chinese herbal medicine, western medicine of many different flavors included several neurologists, 2-week hospital stay and testing, psychology, and psychiatry. His problem was debilitating migraines so severe that he had to drop out of school and stay home.

I worked on this young man one time and never heard from him again. 17 years later he calls me up and wishes to join my medical qigong certification program. He says the reason he wishes to do this is that the one session I gave him changed his life and he has since then been on a totally different path. He said the migraines ceased the day after the session and he dreamed that night of what he was to be and how he was to go about it. This young man is graduating form my certification program this next weekend. And a point - yes, I am a very good practitioner - but it is the SYSTEM of high level healing that is responsible - not me. This man has a clinic and has the same incredibly high level of efficacy as I did. He found and fulfilled his destiny.

 

edit: typos fixed

Edited March 10, 2014 by Ya Mu

[BaguaKicksAss]

What basic principles would identify a good bagua system taught right?

 

Move from ldt

Never move an arm or leg all by itself

Twist, twist some more, twist even more

Sink, sink some more

Circle walking and exercises are primary, forms are secondary (yet still important)

[Brian]

Here's another way to slice it -- open the phonebook (or Google it or whatever) and makes list of all the TCM practitioners in your area (most will probably be acupuncturists). Then call each, tell them you are looking for an acupuncturist and would like to ask a few questions -- ask a few harmless questions about how long they've been practicing & where they learned or whatever and also ask about how much time per week they spend practicing qigong.

 

If your results are like the ones I got a few years ago, you'll find it somewhat depressing.

[z00se]

Some background for my thoughts...

I have spent some time a few years ago doing kan & li (mantak chia) and i know you have said before you didn't know much about Chia's stuff but he sells that as high level qigong, spiritual qigong.

 

What i found is that in the end it didn't matter what i did it all ended up being the same, this same high frequency light. As soon as i included sexual energy in the mix, whether i was doing iron shirt (very physical) or kan & li, i got to the same place of feeling this high frequency energy. Any meditation then seemed to just quickly lead towards that state.

 

Kan and li obviously as high level neigong only and iron shirt, well low, mid, and high levels together, but probably with a greater concentration on the physical, but they ended up being just different ways to the same point. The same point in that the energy was exactly the same, yet the experience wasn't exactly the same. I found taking a more physical path it was easier to stay grounded and centred, as apposed to feeling comfortably centred but not grounded in the physical realities around me.

 

I found this high frequency light to have very little or no pushing power but extremely strong penetrating power, it could go through anything, but it would not make obvious changes. I have to admit that there was not alot of controlling going on with it, other than how strong it was and where i put it. I think thats because it was only one, like there weren't different frequencies or rays or 5 element energies, just the single one so really what could i 'do' with that, it just did it's self. I would also have to admit that each time i did it something quiet miraculous would usually happen after. I don't know HOW it worked, i just know that every time i did it something very intriguing would happen after. Examples are, girls chasing after me moments after, fantastic opportunities like training with a TCM doctor who had a constant long queue with half-a-day waits who couldn't even speak english but he was training another chinese guy for a short period before he went back to oxford, who could translate for me, i mean what are the odds. This is just scratching the surface, but things would happen directly after practice, like within 5-10 minutes or less, some bigger and some smaller i can't even remember them all. And it was consistant, whatever perhaps my spirit wanted manifested, but not always exactly how i wanted, maybe a bit like Aladdin's lamp where u get the wishs but get screwed over in another way.

 

...I liked it and i didn't. They were things i wanted but i didn't want. Both feelings simultaneously like with the wishes in Disney's Aladdin's lamp. There was no controlling it, other than turn it on or turn it off, or more power or less power. I didn't intend for any particular wish to happen, things just happened that amazed me.

 

But after playing around for a while i decided i didn't like the energy, i didn't like the feeling of the energy it's self. I didn't like some of the things that happened because of the energy, it bought temptation for trouble in my life. Another thing was that i honestly found the quantity of the energy i was using was just getting rediculously huge, there was no need for such power, it was being greedy. Of course i dabbled and tried it just to test the territory but more energy just meant keeping that high level state for longer with such a tiny amount of practice, and more force, forcefully pulling me into the moment, not letting myself fall into it. Consistant practice was forcing me to lose myself instead of allowing me to give myself. I found myself feeling a sense of superiority over people, including those that had talants much greater than mine and it did feel good, but it was linked only to this practice, if i lost my huge energy for any reason (usually partying) then i lost my feeling superiority too, until i got my massive energy back. I felt invincible and incredible, but at that time with so much power I had a lack of control. There was no metal element, perhaps others too, but no metal was very obvious. Maybe that was me going a little overboard with it, but that is my tendency.

 

But what i learnt from it is that sure, by high level cultivation I may follow my destiny but to what end? I like my life, i don't want to just drop everything i'm doing and change stuff i like just because of destiny. I want to do what 'I', want to do, and i want a way to support that, yet i know i can't stray too far away from destiny either. For me it's again all about balance, a bit for 'ME' and a bit for 'US'. Another reason i stopped doing it was that i found it didn't really help heal my health issues as much as the lower levels did, and that was my primary concern at that moment, any other benefits were considered secondary. That was just what I found most benefitial, and that is what lead me to concentrate more on lower and mid levels.

 

 

I guess it boils down to, does any particular person believe that they may set themselves up in a particular manner, my above example being pain, for the purpose of a lesson needed to be learned. I have seen this to be true both personally and over and over again in clinic. It is totally amazing, yes, but it most definitely happens. I totally absolutely disagree that a low level practitioner can and will help such a person except through hit or miss whereas the high level practitioner has been trained to go much further than simple pain level. But through the nature of this training pain is eliminated as a side effect because once the thing that the person really needed is taken care of there is no longer a need for the pain. We are speaking of layers and layers. Go to a low level practitioner and they find a cause. A mid level practitioner will find the cause behind the cause. The high level practitioner will find the original cause.

 

You said you have found this to be true personally. As someone who is obviously very good in this high level approach, do you believe you are at the point where the one thing you really needed is taken care of and there is no longer a need for pain? If so is it something that happened recently or a very long time ago? Is that the end of the healing and does it last forever, or do you believe this is a life long journey where people need to consistently keep taking care of what is 'really needed'? If it is not a once off lasting forever thing, then surely the very root of the cause has not been found, or there would be nothing that needed taking care of in the future.

I think that by this line of thinking, the root could quiet well be in the physical and not in the spiritual at all, the cause behind the cause could equally be in the physical as it could be in the spiritual, why couldn't it be bi-directional? Yin and yang are equal powers.

 

Perhaps there is no root, there is only what is, and by correcting what is to what should be in all three levels there is no seed left. Yet i am certain that something will stir once again. There is nothing that is constantly correct, the only thing that can be certain is that there will be change.

 

I do this too, i fight with my destiny as you put it, and i give myself pain but it means enough to me to put myself through the pain so that i can get from A to B the way 'I' want to travel that road. I don't see it as a lesson needed to be learned, i see it as a something 'I' want to do. I find what i practice lets me heal myself and gets rid of the pain so i can once again putting myself back into pain getting done what i want to get done, in the way i want to have it done. It sounds silly, but really it's not - this is life. I find when i practice on the low and mid levels and come back into balance the destiny thing (high level) automatically bares more heavily on me and i lose track of 'MY' own path, i don't want to be too strongly lured into my destiny because if i go too deeply in it could be ages before i get out, and it would be a setback (in 'MY' path). In my low/mid level practice i have actually specifically tried to avoid that high level, high frequency energy but i assure you it is impossible. I find that physical balance and connection to destiny goes hand in hand, that most certainly is my experience. With a low / mid level practice high frequency energy is not the focus but it finds it's way in whether you want it to or not. Strong development in low or mid level practice sees high level characteristics become resident, there is no way that it can not. It is like having a magnet with only a north pole, it can't exist. This is why I just think this distinction you have between high and low level practitioners does not exist. Any weakness you mention would be present in a low level practitioner could be equally (oppositely) present in a high level practitioner of equally low skill.

[Ya Mu]

Z00se,

The example I gave above is just one of thousands. I assure you there is a huge difference in high-level versus low level approach, but I don't think I will be able to get this across to you. We have entirely different experiences and opinions about what "high Level" and Light consists of. You think it "I found this high frequency light to have very little or no pushing power" whereas I know that is not true, so in actuality we are referring to 2 totally different things. Also everything else you describe does not even come close to what I know as Light. There is no I and we as you put it but just one. Destiny feels great as one dances in the wu wei, it does not feel like a conflict, one simply IS or we simply BE. So in actuality we still are referring to totally different things.

And yes, in the example I gave above the young man has gone these 20 something years with no migraine. Is this your "forever"? I have no idea. But I assure you he will tell you himself that walking in harmony with Light is no such thing as you describe as it is beautiful without the conflict you describe.

We will have to just disagree on this.

[Ya Mu]

Here's another way to slice it -- open the phonebook (or Google it or whatever) and makes list of all the TCM practitioners in your area (most will probably be acupuncturists). Then call each, tell them you are looking for an acupuncturist and would like to ask a few questions -- ask a few harmless questions about how long they've been practicing & where they learned or whatever and also ask about how much time per week they spend practicing qigong. If your results are like the ones I got a few years ago, you'll find it somewhat depressing.

It is mind-boggling that we have practitioners and schools whose basis for their practice is the manipulation of qi yet only a small percentage of those have ever practiced qigong. It is all conceptual to them instead of personal knowledge of.

[Brian]

It is mind-boggling that we have practitioners and schools whose basis for their practice is the manipulation of qi yet only a small percentage of those have ever practiced qigong. It is all conceptual to them instead of personal knowledge of.

A few years ago, I was looking for a good local acupuncturist for my wife. I called or exchanged e-mails with maybe eight and, of them, NONE practiced qigong. A couple said they had learned it in TCM school, one said, "oh, yes! I'm a yogini", and one actually told me he didn't understand the question.

 

On a positive note, though, I did a group-hike last Summer with a PT who had started learning from someone local (Michael Winn maybe? I don't recall) because she realized those few in the medical profession who practice are more effective, regardless of what their profession is.

[z00se]

Here's another way to slice it -- open the phonebook (or Google it or whatever) and makes list of all the TCM practitioners in your area (most will probably be acupuncturists). Then call each, tell them you are looking for an acupuncturist and would like to ask a few questions -- ask a few harmless questions about how long they've been practicing & where they learned or whatever and also ask about how much time per week they spend practicing qigong. If your results are like the ones I got a few years ago, you'll find it somewhat depressing.

 

Haha yes, but i find this somewhat in every field. You pay good money, thinking you're going to a professional and the often the guy has bugger all experience or just common brains and you'd be better off doing it yourself copying a youtube video. I fix 90% of the things on my car and around my house just because i want the job done properly, and i also enjoy doing some varied work instead of doing overtime in my usual work. When it's not their own thing they're working on people don't care. My bro is a roof plumber and said one of the most common things you hear on the roof regarding stuffups was, 'It looks good from my house'. That's because they from their house they couldn't see it haha.

[z00se]

Z00se,

The example I gave above is just one of thousands. I assure you there is a huge difference in high-level versus low level approach, but I don't think I will be able to get this across to you. We have entirely different experiences and opinions about what "high Level" and Light consists of. You think it "I found this high frequency light to have very little or no pushing power" whereas I know that is not true, so in actuality we are referring to 2 totally different things. Also everything else you describe does not even come close to what I know as Light. There is no I and we as you put it but just one. Destiny feels great as one dances in the wu wei, it does not feel like a conflict, one simply IS or we simply BE. So in actuality we still are referring to totally different things.

And yes, in the example I gave above the young man has gone these 20 something years with no migraine. Is this your "forever"? I have no idea. But I assure you he will tell you himself that walking in harmony with Light is no such thing as you describe as it is beautiful without the conflict you describe.

We will have to just disagree on this.

 

 

Yes i agree. I think different practices have different results, and sometimes i even think perhaps that any actual practice is not even necessary. People practice different things so that they can get to a specific place, then once they know how to get there they don't even need to do the steps to get there they can just be there. Sometimes i think all the practices are just steps, they are just a way to allow the mind to more solidly believe that it can reach a certain place, a sensible and fathomable path, yet the path in reality was not even required.

 

One more question for you Ya Mu, I remember reading before about recommended practice times in your system depending on if you were healing people or if you were just doing it for personal development. I just want to know do you think it could be detrimental to practice 4 hours a day if you weren't healing others, concentrating only on yourself. Would you think one hour would be plenty enough and the extra hours would be excessive, or do you think its fine to practice for hours on end without an outlet for the energy? Just wondering in the difference from what i practice, because i need to either use the energy or ground excess out. Harmonize ingoing with outgoing to to speak.

[Brian]

I can answer that one, z00se (and Ya Mu can correct or expand as needed).

 

There is no "forcing" so there is no such thing as "too much." The person interested in personal development or family healing will have phenomenal results from an hour or two of balanced practice each day (by "balanced practice, I mean a combination of sitting Stillness-Movement, standing Stillness-Movement and Gift of Tao) while someone who spends eight hours a day in a clinic needs to spend more time on their neigong practice. Over time, actually, one develops " fulltime practice."

Edited March 10, 2014 by Brian

[z00se]

I can answer that one, z00se (and Ya Mu can correct or expand as needed).

 

There is no "forcing" so there is no such thing as "too much." The person interested in personal development or family healing will have phenomenal results from an hour or two of balanced practice each day (by "balanced practice, I mean a combination of sitting Stillness-Movement, standing Stillness-Movement and Gift of Tao) while someone who spends eight hours a day in a clinic needs to spend more time on their neigong practice. Over time, actually, one develops " fulltime practice."

 

Mmmm, i see. I certainly don't force things either, thats definitely a recipe for disaster. I would say instead that i 'tend towards' or have an intention that with added energy gets carried out. Sometimes i may also request or ask to indicate direction. All this though can still lead to the possibilty of too much. In this system do you have a direction or have the direction find you? You said balanced practice with a combination of what you listed above, perhaps some are bringing in energy and others are making use of it or letting it out, that is where the balance is found?

 

I have bought and read Ya Mu's book a while ago but i think Gift of Tao or perhaps some other parts weren't included in it so i don't have the complete picture. I've been told i should get it but i have many things i should do i'm sure i'll get around to it one day.

[Gerard]

P.S. Gerard, by coincidence or maybe synchronicity, I recently started learning about bigu and how it relates to cultivation. The method you provided a reference to seems quite extreme however. A less extreme approach might be better.

 

Yes, for most people a less extreme approach is needed. For 'adventurers', psychonauts and the like such extremes are part of the practice. The last Buddha was also an extremist. Today, you need to be one as well if your intentions are leaving Samsara for good. Hard work and effort always pays off:

 

"Time and again the Buddha has stressed the need for effort, for diligence, exertion, and unflagging perseverance."

 

It is a mantra I remind myself 24/7/30/365. No rest.

 

Btw, bigu + celibacy + no to material wealth.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Gerard

[z00se]

Btw, bigu + celibacy + no to material wealth.

 

Hey Gerard,

 

If you go bigu before Easter can i have your easter eggs?