The Course in Buddhist Reasoning and Debate

[doc benway]

I would like to see that change. I find that people who actually practice are much gentler in their approach than those who just interested in intellectual form. Which is why are asked if people actually practiced. So much interest in Dzogchen terminology must be based in something I guess but I don't know what. It is not ok to disparage other paths ... in fact it is a root downfall in vajrayana.

 

I would like to see some true Buddhist values in this sub forum.

Me too but I'm not holding my breath…

I guess the only thing we can do is be the change we hope to see.

I try to do that as much as possible, and I know you do as well, sometimes I'm even successful.

I think we lose a lot of the genuine practitioners and gentler souls here as a result of the atmosphere.

I've seen quite a few come and go in the years I've been around.

 

I used to be a fan of handmade knives back when I was heavily into martial arts and I frequented a couple of "knife" forums several years ago.

The irony is that the (predominately Christian and right wing) members were far more supportive, cooperative, generous, and caring for each other there than the "Buddhists" and "Daoists" are here - and it was quite sincere.

Those folks would get nothing but scorn here, simply for their perceived religious and political beliefs, and yet they were much more open and accepting than most of the "spiritual" folks are here.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh or bitter, I'm really not feeling that way, just making a curious observation.

I haven't figured it out yet… but I've come to accept it, more or less.

[Simple_Jack]

No one's expected to automatically agree with how ChNN teaches Dzogchen, but since Steve decided to voice his disapproval of a translation of a Dzogchen term, I in turn decided to voice an opinion that was opposite to his own. If you guys don't want someone voicing an opposing opinion then it's best not to bring up the topic in the first place.

[Simple_Jack]

Steve, what are you talking about? There's a whole sub-forum where people discuss Bible passages and Christian mysticism.

[Simple_Jack]

Steve, in case you're wondering: I don't have any animosity or scorn against the Bonpo.

[C T]

"Insanity is continuing to do the same thing (habitually) and expecting different results."

---- Gerhard Plenert, Lean Management Consultant & Author

 

Just thought i'd slip this in as it reminds me of a frequent trend here, and most everywhere else. Especially among chefs.

 

 

 

 

Here's one i heard recently, source unknown.

 

"Mother was spiritual, without her even realizing it. She never needed to give a schedule to the milkman. She was never anxious in the slightest that there would be no milk for the house. All she does is put out the empties, and sure enough, not once, as far as i can remember, did we run out of milk. She says all life can be like that, for the wise."

 

 

 

 

a little soul-full distraction.

Edited March 12, 2014 by C T

[C T]

Steve, what are you talking about? There's a whole sub-forum where people discuss Bible passages and Christian mysticism.

Steve was reflecting on his past participation in the knives forum, you dingdong

[Simple_Jack]

CT, he said those people would receive scorn for their religious beliefs on this forum, obviously that can't be true across the board, because there is a whole sub-forum where people discuss Christianity. As for their political views...well that's a different story.

[C T]

CT, he said those people would receive scorn for their religious beliefs on this forum, obviously that can't be true across the board, because there is a whole sub-forum where people discuss Christianity. As for their political views...well that's a different story.

No, you're right, its not true across the board.

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[asunthatneversets]

What's wrong with the debate and so on? It's an excellent way to refine one's understanding of the teachings on a relative level, which if done skillfully will aid in direct experiential recognition in the ultimate sense.

 

This is why right view is first and foremost on the eightfold path.

 

All I see is Buddhist values here.

[Tibetan_Ice]

So is there a pure Dzogchen which is different to any other kind of dzogchen?

Well, I assume that you are not trolling me and that perhaps you just have never read anything I've posted..

So, here goes.

Pure Dzogchen is simply that. Pure Dzogchen. Not, what falls under the umbrella of Dzogchen and classified as preliminary practices (if you didn't GET the transmission). So, No Trecko needed, No Thogal Needed, you have learned to simply sit and let everything dissolve away. You have gained conviction that this is the only way and you have conquered your urge to "have to do something".

 

This is mention of the practice and serves to show the difference between Tantra and Dzogchen:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/33688-zen-sutrayana-approach-to-recognizing-unfabricated-presence/?p=525153

 

From "Pointing Out the Nature of the Mind: Dzogchen Pith Instructions of Aro Yeshe Jungne Paperback – January 1, 2012"

 

Question: Regarding the Anuyoga practices which open the channels and chakras, how important are they with regard to Dzogchen?

 

Answer: Opening the channels and chakras through the practice of Anuyoga is very important and beneficial. However, you accomplish this be doing Dzgochen practice alone, without Anuyoga. when you practice Dzogchen you are focusing your mind on your own awareness. As you awareness becomes stronger and more powerful, the energy, light and power of your realization will naturally, spontaneously balance the channels, winds and essence elements of your body. You do not need to do any additional practices to achieve this. However, the Anuyoga and Mahayoga tantras say that when you do focused practice on opening your channels and chakras, you must combine this with meditation on the nature of mind. In other words, for the Anuyoga practices to work effectively, Dzogchen practice is necessary. Uniting these two is very powerful. But again, Dzogchen by itself will do everything.

 

That is pure Dzogchen. That is the practice. But it is only for the highly advanced practitioner. Part of the major hurdle is wondering to yourself "do I want to spend the rest of my years doing this practice when I could be doing -something-". The mind is convinced that it must do something.

 

Get it?

No?

 

Since part of the problem here is that most people here follow CN Norbu, and well, quite frankly, he has bad English, poor translators and his books can confuse you more than enlighten you. He is responsible for calling rigpa "knowledge".

 

Let's look at Jim Valby's writings, one of CN Norbu's translators..

 

http://www.shangshungpublications.org/2011/01/jim-valby/

 

Jim Valby was born on 3 September 1946 and grew up in Rochester, New York, USA, where he attended Roman Catholic elementary and high schools. He graduated from Middlebury College with a Physics degree and worked as an engineer. From 1971 to 1983 he attended graduate school while driving a school bus, programming computers, teaching violin, and running a nuclear reactor. He earned Masters and Doctorate degrees in Tibetan Buddhism focusing on Shrisingha, Vimalamitra, and computers at the University of Saskatchewan under Professor Herbert Guenther. In 1982 he participated in his first retreat with Chögyal Namkhai Norbu. Since 1989 he has lived in Western Massachusetts, near the Dzogchen Community’s North American base Tsegyalgar East, working on translations from Tibetan, transcripts of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu retreats, and other Dzogchen Community projects.

 

What does he call 'rigpa'? He calls it "Natural Presence". (now where did that come from?)

 

Ever read "Jim Valby - Five Principles of rDzogs chen Transmission in the Kun byed rgyal po" ?

 

These five principles establish conceptually the meaning of unmistaken

effortless, self-perfected Natural Presence. Practitioners with high capacity 6

do not struggle on the paths of spiritual vehicles.7 Instead, they totally relax

in Natural Presence, directly recognizing the immediacy and totality of

primordial enlightenment.

 

...

 

Natural Presence is also called pure, perfect, intrinsic, non-dual, primordial, instant rigpa knowledge-

awareness.

 

...

 

 

Ok, so he should be a good authority, right?

 

His next writing exemplifies "pure Dzogchen"

The root principle13 explains that all phenomena of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa are

primordially enlightened and unified in Natural Presence. Uncreated,

primordial, all-pervasive and insubstantial Natural Presence is the source of

all teachers, teachings, disciples, times and places. Natural Presence is not

some object or experience to produce, discover or maintain. We relax with

unstructured, raw, timeless awareness in the primordially empty source,

which has infinite potential to manifest anything through sound, light and

rays. 'Sound' means the vibration and movement of emptiness. 'Light' means

that subtle energies begin to manifest through vibrating emptiness. 'Rays'

means the diversification of the empty wisdom-energies of light. All

phenomena of the animate and inanimate universe are already the wisdom energies

of essenceless light. All phenomena of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa are

direct manifestations of self-originated wisdom and are already liberated in

all-pervading, uncorrected Natural Presence. No action is necessary to

produce enlightenment. Primordial liberation does not depend upon

behavior, ideas, meditation, words or mind.

All phenomena are already unified in primordial unique, indivisible,

non-dual Natural Presence, which transcends all frames of reference and

cannot be established through words. Practitioners with capacity learn how

to relax naturally in authentic unfabricated equality, beyond negation,

affirmation, rejection, acceptance, fear, hope, struggle or practice. There is no

need to apply mudras, recite mantras, imagine visualizations, preserve

samayas, meditate deities, perform sacred activities, travel on paths, purify

obstacles, or search for wisdom. Natural Presence already abides in the bliss

of natural contemplation and transcends the dualistic diseases of meditation

practices.

 

 

...

 

Followers of Anuyoga do not understand how to relax in

uncorrected Natural Presence, so they assign the name 'cause' to the

dharmadhātu object, assign the name 'effect' to the self-originated wisdom

subject, emanate and re-absorb light rays, and try to obtain ordinary and

supreme siddhis. Followers of Atiyoga with high capacity realize primordial

enlightenment beyond action and achievement by relaxing in uncorrected

Natural Presence.

 

 

 

I believe Valby is calling Tantra a "disease practice" in the aforementioned quote..

 

Also, and you probably know this too, there is Buddhist Dzogchen (although there is no Buddhism in Dzogchen) which comes from Padmasambhava and then there is Bon Dzogchen, which purportedly predates Padmasambhava by thousands of years.

 

So, yes, there is pure Dzogchen, but unfortunately, the communication tools from which we have to learn are not so pure.

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

Question for Sample Jock:

 

Despite the fact that I asked you to clarify your shoddy references in another thread and you never addressed it...

 

Why do you keep quoting Malcolm? Do you admire him?

 

If so, how can you admire someone who puts down Buddhism like he does?

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8565&start=180

 

Malcolm:

 

Buddhism has become in many respects an ossified missionary religion primarily concerned with gaining converts and worshipping in nice houses.

What I am familiar with is the situation of Tibetan Buddhism and the presence of a great deal of corruption and malfeasence in its institutions.

Actually, it has been this way for centuries -- Buddhist Institutions have functioned to support a priviledged elite in a very feudal manner. Buddhism, especially Tibetan Buddhism, is an oligarchy. Tibean Buddhism functions based on a system of vassalage and fealty.

There is way too much corruption, greed, abuse, and lust for power, title and position in Tibetan Buddhism and in Buddhism in general. There are way too many Lamas who abuse the Dharma to control people, to control scandals, to extort money from their students, etc.

But I have seen that Tibetan Buddhist institutions run on cash. It is all about the money. Everytime Lamas come here they are putting out the plate for donations. Of course, they have to, because they are expected to, it is their job. But frankly, I am fatigued by it. I could go on and on about my gripes about the way Tibetan Buddhism. Perhaps I have just seen one corrupt lama too many.

I do not beleive that traditional Buddhism is in any way capable of addressing the problems we face in the world today. I am sure that it was never capable of addressing these issues.

Yes, and when Someone Rinpoche and Tulku So and So gets into trouble, the putative hierarchies in Tibetan Buddhism act with complete impotence, because Someone Rinpoche and Tulku So and So are "recognized" to be some enlightened yogin, and it is all such total intolerable bullshit.

Yes, there is no class of indigent mendicants who have an excuse not support themselves in the DC.

It is every bit as nasty and corrupt and widespread as I have painted it.

I have seen first hand the incredibly nasty politics that infect every lineage of Tibetan Buddhism.

I am tired of the hierarchical bullshit that is so integral to Tibetan Buddhism and am open about it.

I disdain the tulku system as a mere money game

The whole refuge thing has been turned into a game of religious politics.

These days, refuge has been turned into a badge, a tool for conversion.

Refuge ceremonies have just become an empty baptisms that people think are hugely important but actually change nothing. It is the same with bodhisattva vow ceremonies and also empowerments.

 

So tell us again how we need to have a lama..

 

Did Buddha have a lama? ( I think he got there under his own steam, didn't he?)

 

 

Huh?

 

TI

[asunthatneversets]

The lama is an indispensable requirement for Vajrayāna, which includes Dzogchen. No teacher, no dzogchen.

[Simple_Jack]

TI,

 

I quote Malcolm because: 1. He's knowledgeable about Buddhist tenet systems as a consequence of his years of study. 2. Because he's a competent translator that can read the source material in its native languages. 3. His posts on Dzogchen are derived from ChNN's teachings. I'm not going to waste my time responding to the rest of your post as it's irrelevant to the previous line of discussions.

[asunthatneversets]

The 'pure Dzogchen' versus whatever you are stating is impure is total b.s. Your nature is Dzogchen, your nature is originally pure, there are various means to recognize and then realize that nature, so pick your poison.

 

Citing descriptions of primordial wisdom and claiming that is 'pure Dzogchen' is misunderstanding the teaching. Primordial wisdom is always pure, however 99% of students require a process of refinement after recognition to fully realize that nature. Those who do not need a process of refinement are called cig car bas, and there hasn't been a cig car ba for centuries.

[Tibetan_Ice]

I'm not going to waste my time responding to the rest of your post as it's irrelevant to the previous line of discussions.

You yourself brought it up..

 

Anything can be "Dzogchen practice" as long as you have received direct introduction by a qualified/authorized guru and recognized the nature of mind [sems nyid].

 

Edited by Simple_Jack, Today, 02:17 PM.

 

Are you pulling an Alwaysoff?

 

Do you think Buddha had direct transmission?

 

.?.

[Simple_Jack]

ChNN also translates rigpa as 'instant presence'; dranpa as 'mindfulness' or 'presence'. There's a specific context for why he translates rigpa as 'instant presence'.

[asunthatneversets]

The manner in which Dzogchen is taught in this current time is based on the three statements of the Mahāvidyādhara Garab Dorje, which are (i) direct introduction from a qualified guru, (ii) confidence in the view i.e. integration, and (iii) continuation.

 

Therefore you cannot practice Ati Dzogpa Chenpo without the intimate instructions of a qualified master, and you are not practicing Dzogchen in the absence of a living transmission from a living master.

[Simple_Jack]

TI, are you trying to divorce the necessity of the guru from the path of Dzogchen? The guru is integral to the path of Dzogchen.

[Tibetan_Ice]

The lama is an indispensable requirement for Vajrayāna, which includes Dzogchen. No teacher, no dzogchen.

Does that include teachers from other planes, dimensions and eras?

 

To me a teacher isn't a teacher unless they can appear to me in the astral, regardless of whether they have a body or not.

 

And then, where did the original Dzogchen come from? And who was that teacher? Did they have a body?

 

Something to think about... You might have been brainwashed by the rest of the corrupt money grubbing parrots...

 

Really, think about it..

 

I say, no love, no Dzogchen. No bodhichitta no Dzogchen.

 

[asunthatneversets]

You yourself brought it up..

 

Are you pulling an Alwaysoff?

 

Do you think Buddha had direct transmission?

 

.?.

 

 

Śākyamuni was a nirmaṇakāya emanation of Vajradhāra, as was Garab Dorje, and Vajradhāra is in turn an emanation of the primordial buddha Samantabhadra. Ergo direct introduction is a non-sequitur.

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[asunthatneversets]

Does that include teachers from other planes, dimensions and eras?

 

To me a teacher isn't a teacher unless they can appear to me in the astral, regardless of whether they have a body or not.

 

And then, where did the original Dzogchen come from? And who was that teacher? Did they have a body?

 

Something to think about... You might have been brainwashed by the rest of the corrupt money grubbing parrots...

 

Really, think about it..

 

I say, no love, no Dzogchen. No bodhichitta no Dzogchen.

 

 

The 'original' Dzogchen did not come from anywhere, it never began.

[Apech]

@Buddhist reasoning and debate - vigorous debate and challenge is important I think, but I would like to see it done with a spirit of mutual help and support. Quite often on here it seems more like a simple argument.

 

@Tibetan-Ice ... if I can address the 'pure Dzogchen' idea by comparison with mahamudra. There are two uses of the term mahamudra. One is in tantra/mantrayana and refers more or less exclusively to the final realisation. So enlightenment, if you like is called mahamudra. The other is in the so called 'indirect lineage' transmission (Maitripa and others to Gampopa) where mahamudra is used for the whole approach to sitting cultivation and so on.

 

I suspect that dzogchen can be used similarly to refer to either the ultimate state of Great perfection or to the various approaches to it. So if you say you are a dzogchenpa then it does not necessarily mean you are a realised being ... it could mean that you are following a set of teachings and a dzogchen lama.

 

I think it is very unlikely that any practitioner of dzogchen does this with no inclusion of tantric practices ... as they are not as mutually exclusive as you seem to suggest. The main difference would be I think whether you were a monk or not. As a monk the vinaya vows would prevent certain tantric practices. In fact I would say that most practitioners will practice sutryana (mahayana), mantrayana and mahamudra/dzogchen all together. I believe this idea of exclusiveness and the one true way is a western fantasy brought about by remnants of Judeo-Christian thought.

[gatito]

@Buddhist reasoning and debate - vigorous debate and challenge is important I think, but I would like to see it done with a spirit of mutual help and support. Quite often on here it seems more like a simple argument.

 

<snip>

 

QFT!