The Course in Buddhist Reasoning and Debate

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

 

The question is how can one arrive at illusoriness from the mere experience of vibrancy, radiance,vividness , experiences which usually arise as a result of resting more and more into one's nature.

I am asking this since illusoriness is not apparent , is not something one can experience as a matter of course while in the middle of those experiences mentioned above which usually give rather a sense that the display is more concrete and real instead of being more empty or illusory .

​Also illusoriness it seems to me is more related to knowledge and understanding unlike these experiences which arise as byproducts of resting into nature.

The key is the heart. All experiences of seeing reality as transparent and other planes superimposed on top have been related to the heart. True empathy and/or love from the heart is the switch. Selfless love. That is why there is so much emphasis on bodhicitta in Buddhism, or developing the Kati channel in Dzogchen thogal.

[Tibetan_Ice]

These are possible manifestations of clarity and are no doubt profound experiences but they are not necessarily indicative of the definitive rigpa, in the sense that the definitive rigpa cannot be said to be precisely those experiences.

 

Otherwise people will read that and identify rigpa with seeing through walls and so on and will instead be grasping at clarity and hoping for nyams such as the ones you mentioned.

 

I mean that in the sense that someone may be resting in rigpa yet may not be seeing through walls etc., so rigpa does not necessarily entail such experiences. There can be many types of experiences due to the fact that we all have different capacities and constitutions, so they are in no way uniform.

 

Certain people may be prone to seeing lights and colors etc., while the next individual may be prone to other types of nyams, neither is right or wrong, nor superior or inferior.

A sun,

Of course you are right. Rigpa is not those experiences, it is that which is aware of those experiences. And, one should distinguish between mother rigpa and son rigpa.

 

Do you have a background in chakras?

 

Depending on which dimension one is accessing, the experiences will be different.

 

Here is a link which holds some keys to experiences, and you will know what I mean if you've had the experiences.

Sorry, but it is not in Buddhist terminology.

 

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/bd_2009-11-11_personality-vs-individuality

 

The key points for me in this article:

 

Pure awareness resides in the space of the seventh chakra.

Each chakra can be activated and seen through in conjunction with the third eye.

Seeing from the chest is seeing from the heart chakra. Being in nature opens the heart chakra, and viewing nature without the intervention of the conceptual mind grasping produces heart viewing.

 

And her is more about the 6 and 7 th dimensions

 

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/bd_2007-10-28_subsuperconscious-fourth-dimension

 

 

Gurudeva really knows his stuff.!!!

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[goldisheavy]

Rigpa is knowledge of primordial wisdom [ye shes]. Prior to recognizing wisdom there is no knowledge of it.

 

I strongly disagree with this statement. The states of knowing never enter into any extremes. That means the extreme of ignorance is only a suggestive appearance without any substance to it. That means all possible states of mind are latent, including the enlightened state of skillful and extraordinary recognition of what's happening in one's immediate experience. These various states of mind can be obscured by holding clumsy commitments, but they're not truly absent, and exist subtly and latently in the subconscious at all times, or timelessly, as primordial all-potential.

 

When one correctly learns Dzogchen, it's less like learning a new skill, and more like remembering something you've always known, but have been choosing to ignore. It's like "duh, of course! how could I forget? hahah... silly me!"

Edited July 9, 2014 by goldisheavy

[asunthatneversets]

I strongly disagree with this statement. The states of knowing never enter into any extremes.

They do, fortunately. Knowledge and ignorance are integral and fundamental aspects of the buddhadharma and dzogchen in general.

 

That means the extreme of ignorance is only a suggestive appearance without any substance to it.

Well, everything is merely a suggestive appearance without any substance to it, including the antithesis of ignorance. Yet that lack of substantiality does not render ignorance and knowledge arbitrary.

 

That means all possible states of mind are latent, including the enlightened state of skillful and extraordinary recognition of what's happening in one's immediate experience.

Yes, although awakened wisdom is not a 'state' of mind per se... or at least not in the sense you appear to be suggesting it is.

 

These various states of mind can be obscured by holding clumsy commitments,

Wisdom becomes obscured by far more than clumsy commitments.

 

but they're not truly absent,

Yes, this is why wisdom can be recognized.

 

and exist subtly and latently in the subconscious at all times, or timelessly, as primordial all-potential.

Perhaps the latter, but it has nothing to do with the subconscious.

 

When one correctly learns Dzogchen, it's less like learning a new skill, and more like remembering something you've always known,

In a sense.

 

but have been choosing to ignore.

Delusion is conditioning, it is not a choice.

 

It's like "duh, of course! how could I forget? hahah... silly me!"

That is sort of taking the 'remembering' metaphor a bit too literally. The notion of 'remembering' is pointing to the fact that recognizing your nature (in a definitive sense), is recognizing something which was there from the very beginning (yet was seemingly obscured). In addition, that epiphany is unmistakeable when it occurs and carries an air of certainty which would not require second hand confirmation, much like remembering something one had already known.

 

Another way it is akin to recalling something you already knew (yet had forgotten) is that the species of recognition Dzogpachenpo is concerned with is very simple (when it occurs) and it isn't something which is being newly created.

 

In dzogchen your nature isn't something which is constructed anew, it is not being built or fabricated... rather it is inborn and naturally perfected, only requiring recognition and familiarization.

[goldisheavy]

Yet that lack of substantiality does not render ignorance and knowledge arbitrary.

 

Actually that is precisely what it does. That's the full implication.

 

 

Wisdom becomes obscured by far more than clumsy commitments.

 

Such as?

 

 

Delusion is conditioning, it is not a choice.

 

Delusion is somewhat of a choice. Because post-delusion ongoingly sticking to delusion is not fully cognizant, the ongoing aspect of delusion is less of a choice, but the choice is never fully eliminated, only repressed in this case.

 

And prior to delusion one has a cognizant and aware choice of entering into a state of delusion. This must be so because possibilities are never destroyed or created. All possibilities as arrays of possible cognitions exist primordially as all-potential, without increase or decrease. So prior to delusion and post-enlightenment, one can, if one wants, become an ordinary sentient being again.

Edited July 9, 2014 by goldisheavy

[asunthatneversets]

Well, I stand by my statements and you are entitled to your opinions.