Struggling and Seeking the Truth

[DreamBliss]

There have been so many beliefs I had to let go of from my former Christian faith. Some of these, such as the concept of sin, have been a relief. As I progressed along my spiritual path I found other beliefs that empowered me, such as the concept that my thoughts create my reality. In other words, the world I experience is a reflection of my thoughts. But now I am faced with the possibility that this belief too, may be wrong.

 

As a Christian it was all about God. If it's God's will. In God's time. It was such a relief to be out from under the thumb of some all-powerful eternal entity outside myself, who seemed to have the same ego-driven impulses as the human race He created. Judgment, punishment, allowing Job to be tormented. And Heaven was not the perfect place I was brought up to believe it was. How could it be, if Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels fell from it? Where could sin come from in a perfect place? Why would I want to spend eternity in one place anyway? I mean I no longer have a physical body. So I don't need to eat, I don't need money, I can go wherever I want. A grand adventure awaits me!

 

These realizations helped me work through the threat of eternal damnation, something I had to struggle with when I renounced my faith. I turned my back on that belief, and all other organized religions. I decided instead to learn from the teachings of each religion whatever I needed to learn. After all I went through all that, and my experience with the tulpa I believe I created and had to disconnect myself from, I thought my struggle was over. I was actually feeling peaceful, serene, calm. Anger and depression no longer had the hold on me they once had. I was able to smile and laugh more often, when before I smiled and laughed rarely.

 

This concept that I create my reality with my thoughts opened up the world for me. It did not matter to me that I did not have the power on a physical level to challenge or change the things in the world that bothered me. I knew I could change my thinking about them, stop investing belief energy into the reality these happenings proposed, and thereby remove all power from them. I could, just by addressing how I thought about things, change the world.

 

At the same time I could come to what I now called the Source, a general-purpose name for what I used to call God that I adopted, about anything and everything. The Source, unlike God, had no ego. I simply could not bother it with my requests as it is eternally and perfectly loving and creative. All I had to figure out is how to access that power to manifest the things I wanted in my life and the world. How to properly ask for things, or pray. Kinda like figuring out what plug would fit this socket. If I could do that, I could do anything I wanted and be anything I wanted.

 

But then I started reading things that told me that the creation part was finished. Everything was pretty much set in stone. I could not heal myself or others. I could only Treat them, by not focusing on the person or the dis-ease but on the nature of God. It was God that did all the work.

 

At this level of my spiritual growth I could accept God and Source as different names for the same thing. God is not at all, in my mind, what He was when I was a Christian. Now God is more of an It, an energy, as I started. So when I use God from this point on, outside of the reference to my former faith, I am still referring to this new concept I have of this entity, which I also call Source.

 

Anyhow up to this point Jesus, as detailed in the New Testament, became a sort of a role model for me. Now that I was no longer a Christian there was more freedom in studying the Bible. With other things I had read I could see this book differently now. I could see Jesus as a man who figured out how to plug in. I thought if Jesus could do it, so could I. We are both children of God afterall. We are both connected to or one with God. I am still struggling with this oneness thing.

 

This essentially made me feel that I could live a life without limitation. All my life I had been limited by my circumstances, beliefs, thoughts. I had never been a powerful or wealthy person. All of a sudden it seemed as if I could experience what that would be like, to have the power in me to heal, transport myself anywhere in the world, fly, take control of my dreams, astral project and explore the energetic realms of the afterlife. I thought I could do anything. I was flying high, then the plane stalled.

 

Now once again I was being told I was wrong. My beliefs were wrong. I can not control things. I can not create my reality. My thoughts do not create my reality. I do not do the miracles. There is nothing I can do. The world is set in stone, creation is finished. Even though what I, and the rest of humanity, call reality is not how things really are, how things really are can't be changed, so what would be the point in knowing the Truth of reality? I guess I though if I knew the Truth, I would then know how to do the things I wanted to do, or how to become what I wanted to be.

 

Essentially everything now is hopeless. My life has no purpose. I have no idea what my dream may be. Even if I were to see reality as it really is, I can't change anything. Reality is set, my course is set, I have the illusion of free will, of the ability to do anything I put my mind to, but these are as illusory as what I think of as reality itself.

 

On top of that there seems to be no way to really know the Truth. Everyone has different definitions, who knows which one is right? I have to hear my parents constantly saying that the world is coming to an end, the second coming a big part of the Christian faith. I also read in text after text that the purpose of my life is to serve, which I know is a pile of bullshit. So that just adds to the depression energy I feel. All day, every day. It is no wonder that I finally got sick in my physical body. It is a reflection of my inner state, in serious dis-ease, I am sure.

 

So now I have to ask, if everything is set in stone, then what is the reason to keep going? I can only come up with one. Illusory or not, there is a big world out there, and the Big Sur has stuck in my mind, so I guess I am going to have to ignore reason, free my intuition, step out in faith, with no guarantees I will even have a place to sleep, clothes on my body, or food in my belly, and go.

 

I will have to lay my son on the alter, so-to-speak, the comforts of living here. I am blessed with a roof over my head, clothes and food. But I am starving spiritually, and if all my life were to be was living here, I would kill my physical body right now and free myself without hesitation. I need to let this go, get rid of unreasonable reason, and act solely on intuition. I know this is a major area in my life I must address.

 

But how do I deal with this desire to have some measure of control or power, which I have never had, my whole life? I will have even less when I am hiking or biking down the coast. No safety, no security. No assurance that even if my inner landscape is at peace, and I am thinking nothing but loving thoughts, that I will even survive on the way down there, or if I get down there, once I am there.

 

I mean if my thoughts do not create my reality, I certainly can't create a realty of getting along with everyone I meet, can I? If things are set in stone, if fate or destiny or karma rule, then I am powerless to insure a pleasant experience for myself. If I can't think good thoughts about what will happen, and the people I will meet, and expect that to be the reflection I see out in the world, then I am at the mercy of the whims of some design already set in place. The script is written, so-to-speak. I only think I can ad-lib.

 

Once again I am left without answers, without even the faith I once had that if I just thought correctly about my circumstances and the people I meet, that I would be safe. I know I need to deal with the things driving my need for control, power and magic. I will use the word magic to describe acts that most people do not do. Walking through walls, teleportation, flying, healing. Maybe miracles is a better word. But I have always thought of this as magic. That this world is plain and dull without magic. Without wonder, a sense of wonder, without amazing things. Not that life in its many forms on this planet is not amazing. But a beautiful bird that can fly is nothing to a human who is flying, with no wings, devices or anything other than simply having figured out how to supersede the concept of the law of gravity.

 

I need to figure out the roots of these desires and address them. But I am tried of this letting go. I am weary of it. Every time it has hurt and taken me a long time to recover, and I still have not recovered fully. I am hurt and tired. I don't believe oneness with God is any more of a desirable future than Heaven or reincarnation. I question the things I have been reading. I wonder what the Truth really is. I wonder if things have to be so hard. If I have to go through all this shit just to finally, someday, when I am 90 years old and have little time left physically to enjoy it, be able to do the things I have always wanted to do and be the person I want to be.

 

I am not even sure who that is. Someone who is doing whatever they love to do, that thing they loose track of time doing, that thing they get lost in. I guess I want to live that life, and I want to live a life without limitations. I am tired of limitations, restrictions and rules. I want to live an unlimited life, doing what I love doing. If I am going to have a dream that is it.

 

If this is an impossible dream to attain in a reasonable amount of physical time I guess I had better just kill myself and be done with it. There would literally be no point in living if I can't have that life. Or at the very least a life where I am doing what I love to do, and I have figured out how to access, channel or work with the Source to keep my own physical body healthy and manifest needed things.

 

I guess now I want to see what others think. If you have a point of view I would appreciate it if you expounded on it. I remember in a previous thread that someone said my thoughts do not create my reality. They never explained why they said that.

 

I seek understanding here, and if it is available, confirmation. I seek the Truth, whatever that is and however painful it may be. The true Truth too, not the Truth according to your religion. The Truth that has been proven to be experientially true by someone with many years experience on their own spiritual path.

 

I am feeling a little lost and directionless right now. I have hacked my way through the dense jungle of various spiritual teachings and am now standing here, unsure of where I should go next. Please point me in the right direction if you can.

Edited March 6, 2014 by DreamBliss

[idiot_stimpy]

I think you know the truth.

 

But you can't bare to see it.

 

 

There would literally be no point in living if I can't have that life.

 

 

The question is, are you hoping to use spiritual practices for material gain that is only temporary? Are you hoping to use God for your own ends?

 

If you just want to be happy, why condition yourself, saying you need this, this and this to be happy? Wouldn't it be wonderful if you could be happy for the sake of being happy and not needing any other reason?

 

Its no different from someone saying they will only be happy when they have a certain house, a certain job, a certain wife. Why put your happiness into the future, why not just allow yourself to be happy now needing no reason? You don't need anything to be happy right now, unless you say you do.

Edited March 6, 2014 by idiot_stimpy

[Marblehead]

Well, your questions are not that much different from most other peoples' questions.

 

I thought for a moment you had it with your concept of "Source" but then you used the attribute of "loving" in defining Source and in my mind that was an error.

 

It is my opinion that your "Source" should have been beyond love and hate. Beyond all dualities, in fact. Creative, Absolutely YES.

 

Only the past is written in stone. We have the "now" moment that is being written at this very point in time but the future, Ah!, the future!, that is full potential. This is because it hasn't been created yet. Source will take care of that, of course, but we have the power to move Source in a direction that is in harmony with potential.

 

That last phrase is a little strange. I believe it because I said it but I have no idea how or why.

 

If you are looking for perfection I think you might be looking for the wrong thing.

 

If you are looking for harmony (balance) you might be on the right path.

 

Don't expect to always be happy with the conditions of the universe. But you can be happy about how you respond to its changes. And yes, there will be changes.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Marblehead

[yabyum24]

I have hacked my way through the dense jungle of various spiritual teachings and am now standing here, unsure of where I should go next. Please point me in the right direction if you can.

The only way is inward, to inner understanding/gnosis. All higher teachings point the seeker in this direction. The more you search for the truth in the detritus of the conceptual mind, the more you will miss it.

[3bob]

Dream Bliss,

 

That was laying it on the line... and with a lot of serious experiences and reflections!

 

First: If manifest reality is already written in stone then think of the "stone" as infinite and malleable in a liquid like flow...

Thus in a way (and yes) it's already all written, as in the past, present and future all being rolled into one giant 'right now' and one can flow to any place or time in all of that time and in all of space by mastering their own mind - for the past, present and future are the mind as part of the most complete definition of that word. (which is not limited to just a linear and veiled flow via a 3d framework or only a physical reality)

 

Second: The next big question - will controlling your own mind be enough, as in being able to flow any where in the mind that you want, or to a state of mind that is of great happiness yet is still conditional on its opposite? In other words will somewhere in some various mental state be enough or give you final satisfaction? (and granted mastering the mind is greater than a Mt. Everest type of achievement ! )

 

I think you probably answered 'no', that such will not give complete and lasting satisfaction. Thus is complete and lasting satisfaction to be found? Can it be realized and actualized? I'd say only if and when that which thinks it is mind - even with all of the vast and cosmic aspects of the mind - can find and know its true Self as Spirit then will it be truly happy beyond the conditional yet not rejecting or being reactive about the place that manifest realities in flux have - yet such can no longer take over or enthrall its true identity resulting in separation and suffering - that is because it is Free, Free in the Spirit that it is.

 

Good fortune to you.

Edited March 6, 2014 by 3bob

[ThisLife]

Hiya DreamBliss,

 

I found your well-written post very thought-provoking, (and at the same time, a trifle alarming). When you say things like, "Essentially now everything is hopeless", I think it's an indication that you've somewhat come adrift from the purpose behind all thes spiritual teachings you've been reading.

 

Clearly I don't know the first thing about you, (nor you about me). But in a way, that sometimes allows conversations to be more open than it often can be with those closer to ourselves. On reading your post, the thing that struck me most was how, after following some teachings for a while and apparently giving them your full-on faith,.... somebody will convince you about a different philosophy, and then you switch your 'full-on faith' to what that new person has told you and negate your previous beliefs as having been a foolish error of judgement.

 

Changing one's faith is actually a pretty common occurence. I've done it quite a few times in my own life as well, and I view it as a healthy sign that one is still enquiring. But somewhere over the years of going through all these changes in our spiritual life, I think it's helpful to now and then step back and look at this phenomenon of changes from a more comfortable distance if we want to have any chance of learning from the experiences. It's a bit like standing in a fun fair and observing how a roller coaster works, as opposed to always queueing up and jumping into the next free car. If we keep doing that, all we experience is a never-ending succession of ups-and-downs; the successive periods of exhileration and despair such as you seem to be describing in your post.

 

I'm afraid I haven't had any personal realisations, or possess even a modicum wisdom that I could hope to offer you in your journey. I just read a lot of books that seem to be written by people like myself who have wanted to understand the nature of our existence. However, unlike myself, many of these writers claim to have actually found the answers they were looking for. In fact, some of them have impressed me so much with the seeming logic of what they write that I have re-read their books many times and I often copy down phrases and explanations that they have used to help their readers understand.

 

So, I think the most help I can offer you is to trawl through the collection of extracts I have, (by people who claim to have found answers to what you and I are both seeking),... and place some of the most relevant ones here for you to read. It's like Jesus' parable about scattering the seeds. One never knows which seeds will fall on fertile ground.

 

So, following through on that idea, the three separate extracts below are all taken from a series of talks given by an American Non-Duality teacher called Wayne Liquorman and assembled in one of the most influential books I've ever read in my own life,... "Acceptance of What Is". In the end, I chose each one the three because they each seemed to me to contain relevant thoughts applicable to different questions you raised in your own post. I hope they may be of some interest or help to you.

 

*

*

*

 

 

 

For those of you who are hearing me for the first time I want to emphasise that nothing I say is the Truth. I make no claims whatsoever that one word comings out of my mouth is the Truth

 

Now I am not unique in this. None of the teachers that you've either read or heard are speaking the Truth. Truth can't be spoken. All of these concepts are simply pointers, indicators of a Truth that is right here - that is ever-present - as clear, and as unmasked as it could possibly be.

 

Ramana Maharishi used the image of a concept, (or religion, or philosophy), as being like a thorn that is used to remove some other thorn that is, let's say, embedded in your foot. So you have a thorn (which is some concept about how things are) and it's embedded in you. The sage comes and uses another concept in the hopes of removing that embedded concept with this second concept. If the embedded concept is removed both concepts become superfluous - they get discarded. The thorn that's being utilised to remove the other thorn has no intrinsic value. After it has done its job you don't wax rhapsodic over what a great thorn it was. Its value was only as a tool. The purpose of all religions and philosophies is exactly the same.

 

Generally, by the time you've gotten here you've read a lot, you've been to a lot of teachers, you have absorbed a vast number of concepts, and many of them are contradictory. How do you reconcile what this teacher said with what that teacher said ? I mean, you've sat with this teacher; you know that this person is a genuine teacher. There's no question of him scamming you. And yet he's saying something that is utterly and completely different from what this one over here is saying. How do you reconcile these conflicting explanations ?

 

The way you reconcile them is to understand that none of these teachers' concepts are true. All concepts, religions, and philosophies are simply tools, and their applicability is only in the moment.

 

*

*

 

When you're asking, "Why?" about the characteristics or quality of ‘What Is’, there are infinite answers. If you want to take 'What Is' and split it up into cause and effect relationship, which is to say, "Why? What caused this ?" ...pick an answer. Pick an answer that satisfies you. There are hundreds of them. Every religion, every cult, every sect has its answers. And they're easy to find. In fact there are information booths all over. They are well marked. The Christian Information booth has a cross on top. The Jewish booth has a six-pointed star on it. The Moslem one has a crescent moon and a little star. Stop in any of them and you will find all the answers to, "Why ?" you could ever want. Go any time. Many are manned twenty-four hours a day.

 

This teaching simply points to 'What Is' in the eternal present moment. There is no dogma. There is no explanation. There are no reasons given for anything. ‘What Is’, simply Is.

 

*

*

 

 

All there is, is Consciousness.

Consciousness is all there is.

 

All the rest of Non-Duality teachings are simply variations on that theme. Though even that is only a pointer. That is not the Truth. The Truth can not be spoken. That is a concept,… a fairly elegant one as concepts go, but a concept nonetheless.

 

The Truth that is being pointed at is a truth that is beyond the capacity of the mind to understand; because the mind is a divisive, or dualistic, tool. The mind’s job is to compare. And though the mind is not suited to the task of understanding Truth,.. it is the only tool we have for the job. Unfortunately, this task that we ask of our mind is comparable to that of asking our body to lift itself off the ground by tugging and straining on its own bootstraps.

 

 

{Q} : Consciousness is a term that I have a lot of difficulty with and always have. I see it as awareness but it still doesn't feel right. It is elusive.

 

{A} : Elusive it is indeed !

 

{Q} : I don't know how to express it, but I guess I think of it as awareness in the largest sense of the term.

 

{A} : The term, Consciousness, is often used in this teaching with a capital 'C' to indicate that Consciousness is synonymous with such terms as God, Source, Totality, Oneness, Unity, Tao, etc.. It is that which is the source and substance of everything that is physical, of everything that is phenomenal as part of this manifestation. It had to come from somewhere and just as a spider creates a web out of itself, Consciousness has spun this phenomenal manifestation out of itself.

 

Now, the point at which this particular analogy breaks down is that the web is at no time, at no point, independent of Consciousness. The manifestation; all of this, all of us, everything, is in no way disconnected from that original source. So it is both the animus as well as the corpus,... the substance AND that which animates it !

 

{Q} : On that subject, there's something that recently struck me : In all my years of searching for spiritual realisation I have been trying to identify with Consciousness, as if there was an "I" prior to Consciousness. Only, I'm now beginning to think that perhaps there isn't.

 

{A} : No ! And that's why you will never wake up; why you will never join with Consciousness; because you have never been separate from Consciousness,... so it is impossible for you to re-join with it.

 

({Q} : In a sense, I guess I was trying to deify this 'I-amness' as separate from Consciousness,… which I see now is nonsense.

 

{A} : Yes, it is nonsense, but it is built into the structure of the perceptive mechanism, this 'subject-object' relationship. You can't think outside of subject-object relationship. You can't perceive outside of subject-object relationship. You can't find Consciousness because you are It. The only way you could find Consciousness is by not being It and observing It,... But there is nothing that is not Consciousness.

Edited March 7, 2014 by ThisLife

[dee]

I am feeling a little lost and directionless right now. I have hacked my way through the dense jungle of various spiritual teachings and am now standing here, unsure of where I should go next. Please point me in the right direction if you can.

 

Be lost and directionless. There is no need your natural state. There is no destination. Simply be and watch all that comes. There is no need to do anything.

[DreamBliss]

I guess, even though I call it clarity, understanding, or Truth what I really am seeking is indeed hapiness.

 

I have not spent much time in introspection on this, but at first inward glance that appears to be the case.

 

If I know how things work, how to plug in, then I am in control. I must believe at some level that this control will allow me to have the life I want, and in having the life I want I will be happy.

 

I worked through some of this last night, after starting this thread. My desire for control ultimately stems from fear, as all desire for control does. But it goes deeper. When I was a Christian I came to a point where I did not trust God. Prayers were not answered, God did not provide, did not protect me from hurt, pain, embarrassment, humialtion, and all the other crap that happened to me.

 

I threw myself into His service, following the wishes of my parents and teachers, went out to minster to children. I found rejection by a father who said I was not good enough for his daughter, Heartbreak as I watched someone I thought I loved being driven away some years later. Rejection again as a girl laughed in my face when I asked her to dance. Rejection again as I took a friend out to see if she wanted to be more than a friend, but she wanted to be with some guy she met on the internet.

 

Only this rejection was more personal. She would not sleep with me. She slept with some random guy. She wanted to get the sex thing over with so she wouldn't disappoint this internet guy. I came close to killing myself. I was too much of a coward. I know that may be a strange thing to say.

 

I thought I left this baggage behind with my former faith, but I discovered I needed to forgive God, now perceived as the Source, so that this stuff didn't keep haunting me. So I did that. I also released and letr go of all negative thoughts, beliefs, feelings, mindsets or programming I had towards God.

 

Then I released and let go of my need to control my life. I know I have done a shit job with it so far. But I came to realize I needed to forgive myself, so I did. I understood that I did not know any better. I was given this gift called life and I never thought to go to the gift-giver and ask how best to use it.

 

I have entrusted my life to the Source, and am now practicing being present minded, because the only reason to resist that would be if I was trying to control my life, shape it to what I want, and I refuse to try that anymore. This is tough and I am not sure if I can keep it up. But I don't give up easy. Hell it took experiences that literally blew up the Christian faith and its teachings before I could move beyond that faith!

 

For the record, I do not jump willy-nilly from one teaching to another. I read a book. If it rings true, I apply it. If things ring false I chuck it. I read and I apply what I read. I think about what I read. Look inward at my feelings and thoughts. Maybe I am doing something wrong here, maybe I am seeking happiness yet again through the pages of these texts. I will have to work through that later.

 

I also still have to deal with my desire for power and/or magic. I think its roots are partially simillar, born of a distrust in God. But I sense there is more. To answer a poster, if I had such powers I would definetely use them for myself. But I think I would also use them to help others, as the need arose.

 

On an interesting note I have made a marked physical recovery over the last two days of posting this thread and working through this. Could that be a sign that the inner part of myself is also getting well?

 

Thank you all for reading this thread and posting your insights. I appreciate your support!

[Marblehead]

Well, I suggest that you seek (inner) peace and contentment. I think you will find happiness hiding in there somewhere.

[thetaoiseasy]

.

Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[ChiDragon]

I would like to think that the truth is my truth but not my own truth. Knowing the truth will guide me through a proper path to know what the fallacies are. Knowing my own truth will lead me to self destruction.

[Rara]

I really dig the OP. Many questions that I have driven mad myself over.

 

What helped me was, erm, f*** truth...it's not important in this context. Just enjoy life and don't harm. Sounds like you already have all this in you...but seeking is pointless. You're covering a beautiful sun with clouds. Still pretty and interesting, but a chance of rain!

[4bsolute]

You are on an edge. Which is good.

 

2014 naturally has barely any change in it. The energies are slowing down this year, this is felt as barely any change happening. Change coming from our heart is always coming and moving and shaping, but those who are new to these energies barely percieve any if not any change at all this year.

 

Stay where you are and simply prepare for what will come next. Find your foundation.

 

Regarding the truth and your old patterns of believe regarding church: Why do you want to seek something you already have insight you? It is like seeking the glasses right on your nose somewhere outside of you.

 

It is all about UNCOVERING not seeking. You don't need to seek the onion, you are the onion. Peel it.

 

Choose the right mindset, which is a different vibration from seeking. You will not find when you seek. If your desire is to Find, then you will find. But a seeker will never find. Seeking is an opposing vibration to finding.

 

Many points in your text speak of that you are not properly rooted. Physically and spiritually. Root yourself physically each day, by standing on bare earth with no shoes on.

 

All the best.

Edited March 7, 2014 by 4bsolute

[Rara]

I guess, even though I call it clarity, understanding, or Truth what I really am seeking is indeed hapiness.

 

[font=verdana, geneva, sans-serif

Happiness is a choice...your decision to make live what you want it to be.

[ThisLife]

Happiness is a choice...your decision to make live what you want it to be.

 

If happiness is simply a choice,... why would anyone choose to be unhappy ?

[Marblehead]

If happiness is simply a choice,... why would anyone choose to be unhappy ?

There is an entire psychology school that speaks to that (and I think it is a truth that many people choose to be unhappy).

[C T]

There is an entire psychology school that speaks to that (and I think it is a truth that many people choose to be unhappy).

Yes, i think so too.

[ThisLife]

There is an entire psychology school that speaks to that (and I think it is a truth that many people choose to be unhappy).

 

A commendably adroit side-stepping around the question.

Edited March 7, 2014 by ThisLife

[Marblehead]

A commendably adroit side-stepping of the question.

Okay, so I did that, but only because I didn't want to take this thread off topic so early.

 

And I still suggest that there are many people who would rather have something to complain about so that they can be unhappy even if they have to make up their non-existent problems. Thing is, when they actually start believing their illusions and delusions then the unhappiness becomes real. There's a doctor for that at $250 an hour.

[ThisLife]

Okay, so I did that, but only because I didn't want to take this thread off topic so early.

 

And I still suggest that there are many people who would rather have something to complain about so that they can be unhappy even if they have to make up their non-existent problems. Thing is, when they actually start believing their illusions and delusions then the unhappiness becomes real. There's a doctor for that at $250 an hour.

 

It's nice to see your even more commendable acceptance of 'trying to pull a fast one.'

 

Regarding going off topic so soon, my feeling is that the best threads travel along the same lines as the best conversations,... they develop a life of their own and the participants simply enjoy the spontaneous triggering of whatever each topic unfolds as it goes.

 

As to your theory of why so many people are unhappy, personally, I think you're still avoiding the question, the essence of which is the part,...."IF it was simply a matter of choice..."

 

To reduce distracting red herrings even further, imagine there existed a wonderful new device which consisted of two buttons of different colours. One has a label above it saying, "If you wish to be happy, Press This Button". The second says, "If you wish to be unhappy, Press This Button."

 

Do you still think many people would choose the second button ?

 

If not, then there must clearly be something other than simply 'choice' going on.

 

I suspect that our human condition is really quite the opposite. We have No Choice. What appears to be choices, are in fact decided by the ever-changing product of our genetic make-up, physical appearance, personality, etc WITH every experience we have undegone in our life up to the point of the "decision" in question. The combination of these factors is inconceivably difficult, (if not impossible) to unravel or understand,... but the important thing is -- it is a fixed thing AT EACH MOMENT. And it is that fixed thing which makes the decisions at each moment whenever they arrive.

 

Anyway, I've shot my bolt. You're welcome to slip safely back onto topic if you wish and I'll try not to take pot shots below the waterline of your theories any more.

 

Peace, brother ! (An old hippy greeting between two harmless travellers on the road of life.)

Edited March 8, 2014 by ThisLife

[DreamBliss]

ThisLife:

 

I am still looking for that happiness button!

 

To go along with the side-track of this thread... I am not taking sides here. I will speak only experientially. Based on my own experience, if I could have come into that dance knowing what girl would laugh at my face I would have avoided that girl. I would have avoided taking that other friend out and pursuing any relationship with her. I would not have done the things that caused the one I thought I loved to be driven away.

 

In other words, had I known what I came to know I would not have done what I did. I would have chosen another course of action, pressed the happiness button instead. In fact I used to tell myself that perhaps I will figure out some day how to transport myself back to the past and warn myself. But then I wonder, if I came back, would I come back to the same life I have now, it being it's own dimension among the countless threads of dimensions, or would it be different? Well I will not open that can of worms and really send this thread off the rails!

 

I will only say that I have never, with full knowledge, chosen, at least consciously, unhappiness. I always tried to to the things I thought would make me happy, or that my beliefs said would make me happy, or that my others in poistions of influence, like my parents and teachers, said that would make me happy. My whole life I have been pressing the button I thought was the hapiness button, but it turns out I was pressing the wrong one!

 

In fact I am coming to believe there is only one button, and that is the unhappiness butrton! It is in the act of trying to press a button for happiness that I bring unhappiness. It occurs to me happiness comes naturally, same as service. It is a natural part of the experience of life when someone is flowing along, not trying to do antything or make anything hapopen.

 

This is hard to explain. Basically when we pursue happiness it runs away from us. When we stop pursuing I guess it either finds us, in the circumstances of our lives, or it was always there. I will let others debate that.

 

What we have to watch out for, as I have recently learned, is any unconscious pursuit of happiness, or the pursuit of something else with another name that is really a disguise for happiness, as seems to be my case.

 

In other words we might be looking for mate, and the subconsious train of that is that if we had someone to share our life with, we would be happy. But we are pursuing, consciously at least, a mate, not happiness. So introspection is needed to get to the root of a thing.

 

I am still not sure about all what I am about to say, but perhaps people just forgot they were born perfect, with everytrhing they need for happiness, and as we grew up we somehow got it into our heads that happiness is found somewhere outside of ourselves. Really all human constructions, from various definitions of God and the resulting religions to time itself must all come from the same root, humans looking outside of themselves for happiness.

 

But is happiness, wholeness, completeness, whatever, truly found inside? Or is this just more seeking? Maybe happiness, God, time and everything else doesn't exist? Maybe everything is all an illusion, and we are all brunts of some cosmic joke.

 

Or maybe we really are just evolved primates. Maybe all life on this planet, the planet itself, and the universe is the result of some random chance, and we are stuck asking why when there is no answer. We're all just chunks of feces in the fart cloud of creation!

 

Edited March 8, 2014 by DreamBliss

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. Okay, you've got me started.

It's nice to see your even more commendable acceptance of 'trying to pull a fast one.'

I always have been good at ignoring things I didn't want cluttering up my mind if they were things that made no difference in my life whatever. And I have gotten even better since I have been a member of this board.

 

Regarding going off topic so soon, my feeling is that the best threads travel along the same lines as the best conversations,... they develop a life of their own and the participants simply enjoy the spontaneous triggering of whatever each topic unfolds as it goes.

Yes, I am that way in 'real' life. I used to be very good at doing this here but I realized that it irritated some members so I have tried to keep from doing it as much as possible. But I do agree that free flow of thoughts is more true than constructed responses.

 

As to your theory of why so many people ar unhappy, personally, I think you're still avoiding the question, the essence of which is the part,...."IF it was simply a matter of choice..."

You will never see me subscribing to determinism. We have free will and we have choices. Now granted, there are limitations but still ...

 

(I'll get to the rest soon.)

To reduce distracting red herrings even further, imagine there existed a wonderful new device which consisted of two buttons of different colours. One has a label above it saying, "If you wish to be happy, Press This Button". The second says, "If you wish to be unhappy, Press This Button."

Yes, I honestly believe there are those who would push the "unhappy" button. This is because this is what they have always been. They would fear being happy.

 

Do you still think many people would choose the second button ?

A minority, for sure, but yes, there would still be some.

 

If not, then there must clearly be something other than simply 'choice' going on.

Oh, I never suggested that people don't have "real" problems that are preventing them from being happy. I have been in that "unhappy" basket many times. I know what it feels like. But for whatever the reason I didn't take the needed action to get out of the basket. Fear? Perhaps. Insecurity? Perhaps.

 

I suspect that our human condition is really quite the opposite. We have No Choice. What appears to be choices, are in fact decided by the ever-changing product of our genetic make-up, physical appearance, personality, etc WITH every experience we have undegone in our life up to the point of the "decision" in question. The combination of these factors is inconceivably difficult, (if not impossible) to unravel or understand,... but the important thing is -- it is a fixed thing AT EACH MOMENT. And it is that fixed thing wich makes the decisions at each moment whenever they arrive.

Okay, here you are talking about determinism. I actually don't totally disagree with what you said, it is just that I think you have taken one extreme side of a duality and therefore I will take the other extreme.

 

Yes, if we are locked in a cage we can't go anywhere. But if the door is only closed but not locked we should push the door open and go somewhere else so that we have a better chance at being happy.

 

And I will say again here, we have free will and we have choices. But as I have included to that whenever I have said it, we must also take responsibility for our choices.

 

Anyway, I've shot my bolt. You're welcome to slip safely back onto topic if you wish and I'll try not to take pot shots below the waterline of your theories any more.

Actually, you hit me above the waterline. There was nothing covert in what you said. You were expressing your opinions and understandings in response to a post I had made. We disagree. That's fine. What works for you might not work for me and what works for me might not work for you. But DreamBliss might be inspired by what you or I have said and that's the most important thing.

 

Peace, brother ! (An old hippy greeting between two harmless travellers on the road of life.)

Yeah, I've got peace. And I'll be your brother. I still flash the peace sign to people.

 

Yep, this is part of our journey as well. Part of our living our life. Don't worry. Be Happy!

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. DreamBliss, you closed that last post with a flair. I don't agree but that doesn't matter.

 

Two things I want to say after reading the post.

 

One is that we sould do our best to never put our expectations on others.

 

The other is, you reminded me of the some by Rod Stewart, with the words, If I only knew then what I know now.

 

No, we can't go back and change our choices. We have to accept that we messed up and move on. Learn from our mistakes so we don't make the same ones over and over again. There will be plenty more mistakes for us to make down the road.

 

And I will also suggest that seeking distracts us from what we are really longing for. There's an old country song: I over-looked an orchid while searching for a rose. If we are not Prince Charming we shouldn't be looking for Sleeping Beauty. Better to kiss a frog and hope for the best.

[ThisLife]

ThisLife:

 

I am still looking for that happiness button!

 

Had I known what I came to know I would not have done what I did. I would have chosen another course of action, pressed the happiness button instead.

 

I will only say that I have never, with full knowledge, chosen, at least consciously, unhappiness. I always tried to to the things I thought would make me happy, or that my beliefs said would make me happy, or that my others in poistions of influence, like my parents and teachers, said that would make me happy. My whole life I have been pressing the button I thought was the happiness button, but it turns out I was pressing the wrong one!

 

 

 

Hiya DreamBliss,

 

What an excellent, full-of-promise post you've written ! I've taken the liberty of extracting from your post the essence of what looks to me like the seed, (or 'not-yet-sprouted' potential), of your future happiness. These bleak periods come and go in everyone's life. I think that they're basically our price of admission to this incredible opportunity of being alive. So, don't despair. As desolate as some of these passing moods can leave us feeling,... they're like the weather. When a person is caught out hiking in the mountains by a sudden hailstorm and freezing rain, it's impossible for most of us to think that someday soon we'll be sitting in the sun sipping a gin and tonic in our backyard. Deal with what's happening now. The weather will change of its own accord, driven by its own chains of causes and effects.

 

But what I've extracted above from your reply, to me, shows where your future change will send its first new shoots from. Everything changes, constantly. That is one of the defining characteristics of life. The 'good side' of that piece of common knowledge lies in when we're in the middle of a bleak and unhappy period in our life.

 

I'll leave you with two quotes that I think are both true, and potentially very helpful. Not only in your situation, but for every person alive to come across at difficult times in our life.

 

(I've kept them extremely short this time, since you've no doubt recognised that I have a rather alarming tendency to go on and on like an old windbag slowly leaking gas and hot air.) I'd apologise, but what can I do ? To borrow a line from the film "This is Spinal Tap",...."It's the way the good Lord made me."

 

*

 

*

 

"Good judgment comes from experience,… and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."

 

*

 

*

 

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."

 

Albert Einstein

*

Edited March 8, 2014 by ThisLife

[The Prisoner]

in never strive

well

I still try to fly