Consciousness does not exist time

[Vmarco]

That's a good Off-Topic....Consciousness does not exist time. Definitely not something for the General Forums.

The statement is absolutely true. Consciousness does not exist in time. The implications for ego,...overwhelming.

There is no present in time,...there is no (real) consciousness in time.

Of course,...ego thinks, therefore it is. But isn't thinking always and

irrefutably in the past.>

Ever heard of anyone thinking, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling,

hearing...in the present? No!

To get such a dialogue going,...what does Buddhism say about it? And the true mind?

　

The Bodhisattva of Compassion Kuan Yin (Avalokitesvara) dialogue with Buddha on realizing the Way Things Are, and the True Mind, as told in the Shurangama Sutra:

"The sea of enlightenment in its nature is perfect and clear.
Complete, distinct Bodhi is its miraculous source.
But when basic brightness shone so that objects appeared,
With objects' existence, the nature's brilliance faded.

Confusion about falseness brings about emptiness.
Relying on emptiness, worlds coming into being.
Thoughts settle, forming countries.
Consciousness becomes beings.

The emptiness created within great enlightenment,
Is like a single bubble in all the sea.
Beings subject to outflows and lands like fine dust motes,
All emerge out of empty space.

Just as the bubble bursts, so too, space never existed.
How much the less the three states of being!
Returning to the source, the nature is not two.
Many are the entrances through expedients;

The sagely nature permeates them all.
Whether compliant or adverse, all situations are expedient.
Those who initially resolve to enter Samadhi,
Progress slow or fast according to the method selected.

Forms are defiled objects created from thought.
They cannot be discerned by the essence of mind.
How can something not clearly discernible
Be used to gain perfect penetration?

In sounds, language is intermingled.
But the meaning in a word, a name, a phrase,
In such that no single one can included them all.
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

Awareness of smells comes through contact with them.
Apart from them, one does not know that they exist.
Since sensation of them is not constant,
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

Flavors are not to us fundamental by nature.
They only exist when there is something to taste.
Since this sensation is not perpetual,
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

Touch becomes clear only when something is touched.
Without an object there can be no contact.
Since contact and separation fluctuate,
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

Dharmas are know as internal defiling dust.
Reckoned as defiling dust, they are certainly sense objects.
Involvement of subject and object cannot be pervasive;
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

Although seeing itself is lucid and penetrating,
Clearly discerning in front, it cannot discern behind.
Ever reaching only half the four directions,
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

The nose's breath penetrates in and out.
But in the rests between there is no air.
These interruptions render it inconsistent.
How can that be used perfect penetration?

The tongue is not an organ without a function;
Flavors form the source of its sensation.
When flavors cease, it knows nothing at all.
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

It is the same for the body as for objects of touch.
Neither can be regarded as a perfect awareness.
With defined and limited invisible divisions,
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

Mental knowledge is a mass of deliberating.
What it perceives is never profound insight.
Unable to get beyond reflection and thought,
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

The seeing-consciousness combines three aspects.
Probe its origin: it has no appearance.
Since its very substance is variable,
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

The essence of hearing penetrates the ten directions,
For those who have already developed great causes,
Those of initial resolve cannot enter this way.
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

Reflecting on the nose is a provisional method.
It only serves to gather in and settle the mind.
Once settled, the mind is simply still.
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

Those of former accomplishment enlightened by
Speaking Dharma through the medium of language,
But since words and phrases are not free of outflows,
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

Refraining from transgressions only controls the body.
For one lacking a body, there is nothing to restrain.
Since its source is not all-pervasive,
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

Spiritual penetrations are based on past causes.
What connection have they with distinguishing dharmas?
Conditioned thought is not apart from things.
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

One may contemplate the nature of earth,
But it is firm and solid, not penetrable.
Whatever is conditioned is not the sagely nature.
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

One may contemplate the nature of water,
But such mental reflection is not the true and real.
This state of suchness is not an enlightened view.
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

One may contemplate the nature of fire,
But admitting dislike is not true renunciation.
This expedient cannot be one for beginners.
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

One may contemplate the nature of wind,
But movement and stillness are not non-dual.
Duality cannot bring highest enlightenment.
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

One may contemplate the nature of emptiness .
But its aspect is murky and dull, lacking awareness.
Whatever is unaware is different from Bodhi.
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

One may contemplate the nature of consciousness;
Yet one is regarding a consciousness that is not eternal.
Even the thought of it is empty and false.
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

All activities are impermanent;
So, too, mindfulness has its origin in arising and ceasing.
Since at any given time the factors propelling cause and effect differ,
How can that be used to reach perfect penetration?

I now inform the Bhagavan,
The Buddha appearing in the Saha world:
In this land the true substance of teaching
Resides in hearing the sounds purely.

If one wants to attain Samadhi,
Hearing is the best way to enter.
Apart from suffering, liberation is found.
How excellent is he who contemplates the world's sounds!

Throughout eons as numerous as Ganges' sands.
He enters Buddhalands as many as fine dust motes.
Obtaining great power of self-mastery,
He bestows fearlessness on living beings.

Wonderful is the sound of Contemplator of the World's Sounds,
A pure sound, like the ocean's roar.
He saves the world and brings peace to all within it.
He has transcended the world, and his attainment is eternal.

I now evaluate, Tathagata,
What the Contemplator of Sounds has just explained:
Consider someone in a quiet place, who,
When drums are rolled throughout the ten directions,
Can hear at once the sounds from all ten locations.
That is actual true perfection.

The eyes cannot see through solid forms.
The mouth and the nose are much the same.
The body registers awareness only through contact.
The mind, tangled in thoughts, lacks clear connections.

Sounds can be heard even through solid walls.
The ears can listen to things both near and far.
None of the other five organs can match this.
It, then, is penetrating true and real.

The nature of sounds is based in motion and stillness.
One hears according to whether there is sound.
With no sound, there is said to be no hearing.
But this does not mean that the hearing-nature is gone.

In the absence of sound, the nature is not ended;
Nor does it arise in the presence of sound.
Entirely beyond arising and ceasing.
It is, then, truly eternal.

Ever-present, even in dream-thinking,
It does not disappear when conditions and thought are gone.
Enlightened, this contemplation transcends cognition,
Reaching beyond both the body and the mind.

Now, in the Saha world, the theory of sounds
Has been proclaimed and understood.
Yet beings are confused about the source of hearing.
They follow sounds and so turn and flow.

Ananda's power to remember was exceptional;
Yet he fell prey to a deviant plot.
Was it not from heeding sounds that he was nearly lost?
By turning back the flow, one will be above falseness.

Ananda, listen attentively:
I rely upon the Buddha's mighty power,
In describing to you the Vajra King,
A Samadhi inconceivable that is like an illusion.

It is the true mother of all Buddhas.
You may hear the secret Dharma-doors
Of Buddhas as numerous as atoms of universe,
But without first renouncing desire and outflows,
You may amass learning, and still make mistakes.

You exploit learning to uphold the Buddhahood of the Buddhas.
Why don't you try to hear your own hearing?
Hearing does not arise spontaneously;
It gets its name due to sounds.

But when hearing returns and is free of sound,
What does one call that which is set free?
As soon as one sense-organ returns to the source,
All the six are liberated.

Sight and hearing are like an illusory covering.
The triple realm, a vision of flowers in space.
When hearing reverts, the covering of the sense-organs is gone.
The defiling dust gives way to pure and perfect insight.

With ultimate purity, the light is penetrating.
A stillness shines and includes within it all of emptiness .
Looking at the world from this point of view,
Everything that happens is just like a dream.

Matangi's daughter, too, is part of the dream.
Who was able, then, to physically detain you?
Consider a shadow puppeteer at work,
Making the dolls seem as real as people.

Although one sees them move about freely,
They are really governed by a set of strings.
Cease operating the controls and they become still.
The entire illusion was never really there.

The six sense-organs are also thus.
At first there was one essential brightness.
Which split into a six-fold combination.
If but one part ceases and returns,

All six functions will stop as well.
Responding to a thought, defiling objects vanish,
Becoming pure and wonderful perfect brightness .
If there is residual defilement, one must still study.

When the brightness is ultimate, one becomes a Tathagata.
Ananda, and everyone in the great assembly,
Turn around your mechanism for hearing.
Return the hearing to hear your own nature

The nature will become the supreme Way.
That is what perfect penetration really means.
That is the gateway entered by Buddhas as many as dust motes.
That is the one path leading to Nirvana.

Tathagatas of the past perfected this method.
Bodhisattvas now merge with this total brightness.
People of the future who study and practice
Will also rely on this Dharma.

Through this method I, too, have been certified.
Contemplator of the World's Sounds Bodhisattva was not the only one.
The Buddha, the Bhagavan,
Inquired of me which expedient,

Would save those in the final eon
Who seek to escape the mundane world,
And perfect the mind of Nirvana:
The best way is to contemplate the sounds of the world.

All the other kinds of expedients
Require the stateliness and sacrosanctity of the Buddha.
In some cases they bring immediate transcendence,
But they are not the customary means of practice,
Spoken for those of shallow and deep roots alike.

I bow to the Tathagatas and the Tripitaka
And to those inconceivable Ones with no outflows,
Trusting they will aid those in the future,
So that no one will doubt this method.

It is an expedient easy to master; an appropriate teaching for Ananda
And for those floundering in the final age.
They should use the ear organ to cultivate
A perfect penetration surpassing all others
That is the way to the true mind."

[Marblehead]

Well, it's good to see you posting again even if you are living in the past.

[yabyum24]

I was watching a science programme last night about what came before the Big bang? Essentially it looks like scientists can't imagine that there was nothing, as "nothing" could not be a cause for "something".

 

So where does that leave consciousness, as per the OP?

[Apech]

Nice to see you back Vmarco.

[C T]

i agree, all thoughts are in direct relationship with the past, recollections of imprinted data accrued via sense perceptions.

 

Welcome back, Vmarco.

 

Are you still travelling Asia?

[Vmarco]

Well, it's good to see you posting again even if you are living in the past.

 

The past is within time....this topic is about being in the present.

 

I arrived in Philadelphia 2 days ago,...but already found a free ride to Germany,...so I may be heading back,...I haven't got to Vulture Peak yet.

[Vmarco]

I was watching a science programme last night about what came before the Big bang? Essentially it looks like scientists can't imagine that there was nothing, as "nothing" could not be a cause for "something".

 

So where does that leave consciousness, as per the OP?

 

According to the Prajnaparamita's, consciousness does not exist in the universe (aka duality). Science can only observe motion. There is no consciousness in motion. The perception of consciousness in motion is a simulation,...perhaps a dream of consciousness. Hawking's has said, their is no time,...and thus no singularity, no big bang, no creation, nor a creator.

 

For most, science is more diversion, than serious path.

 

The only way to understand Buddhism and Taoism,...is to let go of physical 6 senses.

 

"the ego is a monkey catapulting through the jungle; totally fascinated by the realm of the senses....if anyone threaten it, it actually fears for its life. Let this monkey go. Let the senses go...." Lao Tzu

 

　

"the only way to understand the Tao is to directly experience it." Lao Tzu

 

It is impossible to has a direct experience through the 6 senses,...all experience born of the 6 senses can only be experienced through the conditions of the 6 senses.

 

Prajnaparamita points to a 7th and higher levels, which, according to alleged enlightened beings, is the only way to see things as they are. A short version of this is the Heart Sutra. If the Heart Sutra is untrue,...then the whole of Buddhism and Taoism is untrue. Thus, this would be a much better place to begin than science (aka sciential mind).

[Vmarco]

Thanks for the welcome backs. Didn't realize I was gone for so long.

[Marblehead]

The past is within time....this topic is about being in the present.

The present is within time.

 

I arrived in Philadelphia 2 days ago,...but already found a free ride to Germany,...so I may be heading back,...

I hope it's not in someone's car.

 

I haven't got to Vulture Peak yet.

But you are not dead yet so there is still potential.

[Vmarco]

The present is within time.

 

I hope it's not in someone's car.

 

But you are not dead yet so there is still potential.

 

No....it impossible for the present, the Now, or instant to exist in time.

 

Few people are aware of the world that surrounds them, but only the world that surrounded them

 

Thus,...why this is a good Off-Topic,...because it would surely upset the flow of the General Forum

 

Most men would kill the truth if truth would kill their religion.--Lemuel K. Washburn

[Marblehead]

I'm glad I don't have to kill a religion as I have none. The truth alone stands.

 

Yeah, good thing we are off topic. We still have different understandings about time. Likely always will.

 

The present is already the past by the time we realize it and we are already in the future when we realize what we think is the present although it is already the past.

 

There, I got all three, the past, the present, and the future, into that one sentence and train of thought.

 

Time is simply a measurement. That is all. A measurement of the movement of things within the universe. In most cases we use our sun as our base of measurement. Some peoples used to use the moon. I suppose some still do.

 

But I know that there was a time before I was born and there will be a time when I am no longer alive. That too will be a measurement of time.

 

I think it is time for me to go to bed.

[dawei]

That's a good Off-Topic....Consciousness does not exist time.

 

I have awaited your return to posting.

 

Can you repeat it in 10 lines or less?

[Vmarco]

I have awaited your return to posting.

 

Can you repeat it in 10 lines or less?

 

"As soon as one sense-organ returns to the source, All the six are liberated." Avalokitesvara

 

When one, thus all 6 are liberated, the promise of Buddhism is that consciousness is uncovered.

 

The consciousness to recognize things as they are, is always unrealized by the 6 senses.

 

The 6 senses are within time.

 

There is no time in the present....it's impossible.

 

We live in a time when real Buddhism is ungnown. Real Buddhism has gone terma.

 

This is an age of Private Buddha's (Pratyekabuddha).

[Vmarco]

I'm glad I don't have to kill a religion as I have none. The truth alone stands.

 

Yeah, good thing we are off topic. We still have different understandings about time. Likely always will.

 

The present is already the past by the time we realize it and we are already in the future when we realize what we think is the present although it is already the past.

 

There, I got all three, the past, the present, and the future, into that one sentence and train of thought.

 

Time is simply a measurement. That is all. A measurement of the movement of things within the universe. In most cases we use our sun as our base of measurement. Some peoples used to use the moon. I suppose some still do.

 

But I know that there was a time before I was born and there will be a time when I am no longer alive. That too will be a measurement of time.

 

I think it is time for me to go to bed.

 

Time is a measurement of motion,...there is no motion in the present, instant, or now. All divided light (entire electromagnetic field) is in the past. All motion is 186K mps slower than the stillness of Undivided Light.

 

Divided Light really does not exist,...nor does motion, energy, mass, or time.

 

One cannot experience consciousness in time. If they could, Taoism and Buddhism would be a lie.

[Marblehead]

Time is a measurement of motion,...there is no motion in the present, instant, or now.

That is the first time you have expressed that thought with those words. And I have to agree with you.

 

Good to see you are still holding on to your undivided flashlight.

 

"Divided Light really does not exist,...nor does motion, energy, mass, or time."

 

I have had some Buddhists tell me that even I don't exist but I content that they surely were talking to someone.

 

What time is it? Oh, it is 10:37 pm. I don't want to miss my train of thought.

 

"One cannot experience consciousness in time."

 

I'm going to have to think on that a bit.

[dawei]

"As soon as one sense-organ returns to the source, All the six are liberated." Avalokitesvara

 

You had me at the first line

[idiot_stimpy]

Welcome back

[Colonel Goji]

Why not take a step outside time for a moment, and enjoy an interesting little comic, lol song is just for fun: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt_comic1.pdf

 

 

 

Or for those of more Buddhist oriented minds, a video on consciousness by a very insightful Theravādan Ajahn:

 

 

Were those passages from the Shurangama Sutra Vmarco? Going to read that someday, not quite prepared for those profound teachings yet in my cultivation, still a few attachments that need to be let go of hehe! Don't want to get confused reading such lofty teachings if one is not ready...

Edited March 26, 2014 by Colonel Goji