What are daoists supposed to do with thoughts according to Lao Tzu?

[TheExaltedRonin]

In my personal reading of the tao te ching I did not read anything supporting mindfulness. Actually the story regarding the caterpillar suggests flow over mindfulness.

 

So when practicing flow what is one supposed to do with their thoughts according to Lao Tzu? Let them pass as clouds do in the sky?

[dawei]

49

One with wholeness of virtue has an unconditioned mind.
He regards the mind of all being as his own mind

He is kind to the kind.
He is also kind to the unkind,
for the subtle nature of the universe is kind.
He is faithful to the faithful.
He is also faithful to the unfaithful,
for the integral virtue of the universe is undeceiving.
In the midst of the world,
he dissolves all minds into harmonious Oneness.
All people strain their eyes and ears for excitement.

One of deep virtue brings all people back to their childlike-heartedness.. -- Ni

 

 

I find the same teaching in St. Paul on Christianity.

[TheExaltedRonin]

"He regards the mind of all being as his own mind".

 

Would someone explain that to me In further detail?

 

I'm blatantly ignorant but from what I just read that appears to mean harmonious with the environment.

[dawei]

"He regards the mind of all being as his own mind".

 

Would someone explain that to me In further detail?

 

I'm blatantly ignorant but from what I just read that appears to mean harmonious with the environment.

 

as said in the quote:

 

he dissolves all minds into harmonious Oneness.

 

This is the passive way... it is one with Dao.

 

 

St Paul said this, which is an active way...

 

Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

 

 

The moral of the story is: Do you fell the dissolution of all into One?

[TheExaltedRonin]

I understand. I appreciate your help. So for example I walk a lot.

 

During walking what should one do with thoughts?

 

Using the word dissolve, do I dissolve myself completely into the procedure of walking? Or do I simply think of all the steps of walking (mindfulness)?

 

And if neither of those apply when I do "dissolve" myself into walking what does one do with the "separated" thoughts?

[thetaoiseasy]

.

Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[TheExaltedRonin]

So if one is cleaning a toilet for example and you didn't have a single thought until---you thought of watching a movie.

 

What do you with the thought of watching a movie during cleaning a toilet?

 

To act sincere would be to let it pass? Disregard the thought? Or would you think of every bare bone movement youre doing while cleaning the toilet to remove said thought?

[NotVoid]

Hello TheExaltedRonin. There is (not very likely) any one correct translation or interpretation of the tao te ching. Each person will try to interpret it based on their own background, beliefs, ideas, experience, etc. Ask 100 people what is written in the tao te ching and you could very well get 100 different answers. I could tell you what I think the answer to your question may be based on how I interpret what is written in the tao te ching at this current time, but it would just be one of many different points of view. I will say that it is probably better to read a number of translations of the tao te ching to get an overview of the way various people interpret what is written there. Some translations are available for free on the internet. If you looked at ch. 10, and ch. 16 for a start, it might give you some better sense of what you are asking.

Edited March 8, 2014 by NotVoid

[thetaoiseasy]

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Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[TheExaltedRonin]

Thank you for the responses.

[dawei]

I understand. I appreciate your help. So for example I walk a lot.

 

During walking what should one do with thoughts?

 

Using the word dissolve, do I dissolve myself completely into the procedure of walking? Or do I simply think of all the steps of walking (mindfulness)?

 

And if neither of those apply when I do "dissolve" myself into walking what does one do with the "separated" thoughts?

 

It seems you are asking what should you 'do' or 'think' ? Just be one with yourself... which is to say don't try:

 

37

 

The subtle essence of the universe is always unoccupied,

yet it leaves nothing undone.

If the people of the world were wise enough to plant the root of their lives deep within the Subtle Origin,

then the worldly affairs of life would coherently follow their own natural course,

and harmony would abound of its own accord.

When confusion takes place in one's surroundings,

it can be dissolved with the power of undisturbable Simplicity.

When life is ruled by undisturbable Simplicity,

desire and passion naturally fall away and reveal people's true, original nature.

Then the peaceful order of the universe prevails and unity manifests again of its own accord.

 

-- Ni

[Rara]

You cannot do anything.

 

Even if you make a conscious decision, "I'm going to disregard the thought, focus on cleaning the toilet, and watch a movie later," the important thing is still to....clean the toilet.

 

Even if you decide to be acutely aware of every bare movement of bathroom cleaning to remove said thought, the important thing is still to...clean the toilet.

 

I mean, the action is more important than any thought, decision, and idea that you can come up with. The action is the truth of the present -- thoughts will come and go, as strangers of the past and future.

 

So the only thing we can do is keep cleaning the toilet.

 

Aka mindfulness, right?

 

It takes some focus to get the job done. And discarding thoughts that enter the mind can only get it done more efficiently...just depends if you want to do it efficiently!

[TheExaltedRonin]

And as I've said in other posts I believe mindfulness is the opposite of what the founders of taoism taught.

 

To perform effortless action one must not input effort. Simple. So if one thinks of any action (movement of hands, physicalities etc.) You are therefore inputting a desire or will to think.

 

So if one performs mindfulness without any effort or thought of said mindfulness that person will be performing wu Wei.

[The Prisoner]

covert thought to energy (life force)

 

(I understand mindfulness as the same state I am in when I do crafts, play music, of run downhill)

[Rara]

And as I've said in other posts I believe mindfulness is the opposite of what the founders of taoism taught.

 

To perform effortless action one must not input effort. Simple. So if one thinks of any action (movement of hands, physicalities etc.) You are therefore inputting a desire or will to think.

 

So if one performs mindfulness without any effort or thought of said mindfulness that person will be performing wu Wei.

Interesting. I belong to a mindfulness forum which has a former sports journalist. Once, he interviewed Ryan Giggs (legendary footballee for Manchester Utd) and asked if he had to concentrate hard on making perfect passes and shots.

 

His response was "no, I just switch off and play"

[ChiDragon]

In my personal reading of the tao te ching I did not read anything supporting mindfulness. Actually the story regarding the caterpillar suggests flow over mindfulness.

 

So when practicing flow what is one supposed to do with their thoughts according to Lao Tzu? Let them pass as clouds do in the sky?

 

You are right! The Tao Te Ching did not have anything supporting mindfulness. Btw I believe that the caterpillar story is not the the Tao Te Ching. It is in Zhuang Zi rather.

Edited March 10, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

You are right! The Tao Te Ching did not have anything supporting mindfulness. Btw I believe that the caterpillar story is not the the Tao Te Ching. It is in Zhuang Zi rather.

I disagree with that statement but will hold my tongue for the moment.

[Rara]

I disagree with that statement but will hold my tongue for the moment.

Not directly/explicitly, I would argue. Let's count how long you will hold your tongue for haha

[TheExaltedRonin]

@marblehead

 

Explain please.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I was inspired to put some final edits on my translation of DDJ15, which, as I explain in a brief intro, shows that while going with the flow is integral, this does not negate the importance of having great attention to what one is doing, "careful, calm, (豫 at ease), like in winter, crossing a (frozen) stream."

 

link

[TheExaltedRonin]

Great analyzation by the way.

 

But when crossing a frozen stream that still doesn't indicate mindfulness. that is simply acting-being cautious.

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding what mindfulness would be in that situation.

[Marblehead]

@marblehead

 

Explain please.

What I was referring to is perfectly exampled with HE's translation of Chapter 15.

 

And there are many more examples of suggesting mindfulness:

 

Robert Henricks' translation of Chapter 2, lines 10 through 14:

 

10. Therefore the Sage dwells in nonactive affairs and practices the wordless teaching.

11. The ten thousand things arise, but he doesn't begin them;

12. He acts on their behalf, but he doesn't make them dependent;

13. He accomplishes his tasks, but he doesn't dwell on them;

14. It is only because he doesn't dwell on them, that they therefore do not leave them.

 

These things the Sage does requires mindfulness.

[TheExaltedRonin]

 

10. Therefore the Sage dwells in nonactive affairs and practices the wordless teaching.(No mention of mindfulness)

11. The ten thousand things arise, but he doesn't begin them; (Again, no mention of mindfulness.)

12. He acts on their behalf, but he doesn't make them dependent; (Again, no mention of mindfulness)

13. He accomplishes his tasks, but he doesn't dwell on them;(Same, he simply performs tasks and doesn't think about them afterwards)

14. It is only because he doesn't dwell on them, that they therefore do not leave them. (Yet again, no mindfulness. I no longer dwell about using the restroom either-no mindfulness mentioned.)

[Marblehead]

What are you looking for? The exact word "mindfulness"? You won't find it. But if you are looking for examples of mindfulness you will see it throughout the TTC.

 

The word "mindfulness" does not even exist in the Chuang Tzu. I doubt you will find it until after Buddhism entered China.

[TheExaltedRonin]

@marblehead

 

I'm not looking for the exact word, lol. I'm looking for any signs of traditional mindfulness. AKA Buddhist mindfulness.

 

Complete dedication and thought of ones actions during the present.

 

For example according to Buddhist thought-when one is walking they should be thinking of how the wind feels, how their body feels, how the socks rub against the shoes etc. Etc.