What are daoists supposed to do with thoughts according to Lao Tzu?

[Marblehead]

Sorry. I don't think in Buddhist.

 

In Taoism, when the shoes fit the shoes are forgotten. When the belt fits the belt is forgotten.

 

And to carry this forward: when our inner essence fits our external conditions our external conditions are forgotten.

 

I use "mindfulness" synonymously with "awareness".

[silent thunder]

Sorry. I don't think in Buddhist.

 

In Taoism, when the shoes fit the shoes are forgotten. When the belt fits the belt is forgotten.

 

And to carry this forward: when our inner essence fits our external conditions our external conditions are forgotten.

 

I use "mindfulness" synonymously with "awareness".

This really resonates with me.

 

Awareness can be completely relaxed to me.

Mindfulness connotes a certain level of effort or intention that to me, removes me a step from base, raw awareness.

[TheExaltedRonin]

@marblehead

 

Please explain taoist mindfulness? And a source for said thought? So I can reflect upon it.

[Rara]

Ditto!

[Rara]

10. Therefore the Sage dwells in nonactive affairs and practices the wordless teaching.(No mention of mindfulness)

11. The ten thousand things arise, but he doesn't begin them; (Again, no mention of mindfulness.)

12. He acts on their behalf, but he doesn't make them dependent; (Again, no mention of mindfulness)

13. He accomplishes his tasks, but he doesn't dwell on them;(Same, he simply performs tasks and doesn't think about them afterwards)

14. It is only because he doesn't dwell on them, that they therefore do not leave them. (Yet again, no mindfulness. I no longer dwell about using the restroom either-no mindfulness mentioned.)

Though I do believe that your understanding of point 13 is close

[Marblehead]

@marblehead

 

Please explain taoist mindfulness? And a source for said thought? So I can reflect upon it.

I had to think a little before responding. (It is early in the morning.)

 

As I stated above, I consider mindfulness and awareness to have roots in the same concept.

 

My post above about the shoes and belt are examples of not needing to be aware or mindful any more. The shoes and belt have become as one with us. They are forgotten as individual (separate) items.

 

Again, Chapter 15 of the TTC is an example of mindfulness and awareness. We always remember who and where we are. There are different responsibilities for the host than for the guest.

 

And external conditions will dictate to us as to whether we must be mindful and when we can be mindless. Chapter 15 speaks to mindfulness. That section of Chapter 2 I quoted above speaks to mindfulness.

 

Chapter 9, lines 1 & 2 speak to this: (Henricks' translation)

 

1. To hold it upright and fill it,

2. Is not so good as stopping [in time].

 

How does one stop in time? How does one know when (in time) is? Much mindfulness required here. (This is speaking to knowing when we have enough. I speak to this often.)

 

I will stop here for the moment as I want to change the flow. That way we can speak to this without weeding through what I will speak to next (in my next post).

[Marblehead]

Okay. Here is an example of half-assed mindfulness. It is a story from Chuang Tzu, Chapter Twenty - The Mountain Tree, translated by Burton Watson.

 

Chuang Chou was wandering in the park at Tiao-ling when he saw a peculiar kind of magpie that came flying along from the south. It had a wingspread of seven feet and its eyes were a good inch in diameter. It brushed against Chuang Chou's forehead and then settled down in a grove of chestnut trees. "What kind of bird is that!" exclaimed Chuang Chou. "Its wings are enormous but they get it nowhere; its eyes are huge but it can't even see where it's going!" Then he hitched up his robe, strode forward, cocked his crossbow and prepared to take aim. As he did so, he spied a cicada that had found a lovely spot of shade and had forgotten all about [the possibility of danger to] its body. Behind it, a praying mantis, stretching forth its claws, prepared to snatch the cicada, and it too had forgotten about its own form as it eyed its prize. The peculiar magpie was close behind, ready to make off with the praying mantis, forgetting its own true self as it fixed its eyes on the prospect of gain. Chuang Chou, shuddering at the sight, said, "Ah! - things do nothing but make trouble for each other - one creature calling down disaster on another!" He threw down his crossbow, turned about, and hurried from the park, but the park keeper [taking him for a poacher] raced after him with shouts of accusation.

 

Chuang Chou returned home and for three months looked unhappy." Lin Chu in the course of tending to his master's needs, questioned him, saying, "Master, why is it that you are so unhappy these days?"

 

Chuang Chou said, "In clinging to outward form I have forgotten my own body. Staring at muddy water, I have been misled into taking it for a clear pool. Moreover, I have heard my Master say, `When you go among the vulgar, follow their rules!' I went wandering at Tiao-ling and forgot my body. A peculiar magpie brushed against my forehead, wandered off to the chestnut grove, and there forgot its true self. And the keeper of the chestnut grove, to my great shame, took me for a trespasser! That is why I am unhappy."

 

 

I won't suggest what you should look for here. But I will answer any questions.

[Marblehead]

Okay. Let's speak of mindlessness. We can be mindless (in a state of wu wei) when we are at peace within our surroundings.

 

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that a state of mindlessness means a state of unawareness. No, not that at all. We are still aware. Aware and at peace; no need to be mindful of anything. But we are still aware of everything that is going on around us.

 

To me this is the state of total wu wei. This is a rare event because most of us have places to go and things to do. This requires mindfulness (and intention). What can I call it? Living in "Yu"? (My Chinese speaking/reading friends might help me out here.)

 

I speak of Chuang Tzu's guidance for mindless meditation. To me, this is an excellent process for attaining the state of wu wei. Awareness without intention but responding (or not) based on external conditions in an intuitive manner (without intent).

[Stosh]

Okay. Here is an example of half-assed mindfulness. It is a story from Chuang Tzu, Chapter Twenty - The Mountain Tree, translated by Burton Watson.

 

Chuang Chou was wandering in the park at Tiao-ling when he saw a peculiar kind of magpie that came flying along from the south. It had a wingspread of seven feet and its eyes were a good inch in diameter. It brushed against Chuang Chou's forehead and then settled down in a grove of chestnut trees. "What kind of bird is that!" exclaimed Chuang Chou. "Its wings are enormous but they get it nowhere; its eyes are huge but it can't even see where it's going!" Then he hitched up his robe, strode forward, cocked his crossbow and prepared to take aim. As he did so, he spied a cicada that had found a lovely spot of shade and had forgotten all about [the possibility of danger to] its body. Behind it, a praying mantis, stretching forth its claws, prepared to snatch the cicada, and it too had forgotten about its own form as it eyed its prize. The peculiar magpie was close behind, ready to make off with the praying mantis, forgetting its own true self as it fixed its eyes on the prospect of gain. Chuang Chou, shuddering at the sight, said, "Ah! - things do nothing but make trouble for each other - one creature calling down disaster on another!" He threw down his crossbow, turned about, and hurried from the park, but the park keeper [taking him for a poacher] raced after him with shouts of accusation.

 

Chuang Chou returned home and for three months looked unhappy." Lin Chu in the course of tending to his master's needs, questioned him, saying, "Master, why is it that you are so unhappy these days?"

 

Chuang Chou said, "In clinging to outward form I have forgotten my own body. Staring at muddy water, I have been misled into taking it for a clear pool. Moreover, I have heard my Master say, `When you go among the vulgar, follow their rules!' I went wandering at Tiao-ling and forgot my body. A peculiar magpie brushed against my forehead, wandered off to the chestnut grove, and there forgot its true self. And the keeper of the chestnut grove, to my great shame, took me for a trespasser! That is why I am unhappy."

 

 

I won't suggest what you should look for here. But I will answer any questions.

Do you take this to mean something along the lines that when he began to make morality judgements and prompted his own conscience to guilt, about his own falsity ? You would be then talking about "beyond" good and evil again ,.. yes? not just mindfulness?

[Marblehead]

Do you take this to mean something along the lines that when he began to make morality judgements and prompted his own conscience to guilt, about his own falsity ? You would be then talking about "beyond" good and evil again ,.. yes? not just mindfulness?

No, this time I am still concentrating on mindfulness only. (But nice pick-up on the other concept.)

 

He became enthrilled with watching what others were doing such that he lost awareness of what he was doing. Surely there was a sign stating "Keep Off The Grass". Chuang Chou unknowingly was walking on the grass trying to get a better view of what he was concentrating on. His "forgot my body" is saying that he became unaware of his personal safety. Just like if you are unaware of the rhino while walking through the woods.

[ChiDragon]

............ His "forgot my body" is saying that he became unaware of his personal safety. Just like if you are unaware of the rhino while walking through the woods.

Is that what ZZ meant by "forgot my body"....???

[Rara]

Yeah, I got forgetfulness...

 

"Ball watching" so to speak. In sport...watching, day dreaming rather than being involved.

 

Only when we have trained and trained do we become able to execute a skill...and then it must be maintained...

Edited March 11, 2014 by Rara

[Rara]

Okay. Let's speak of mindlessness. We can be mindless (in a state of wu wei) when we are at peace within our surroundings.

 

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that a state of mindlessness means a state of unawareness. No, not that at all. We are still aware. Aware and at peace; no need to be mindful of anything. But we are still aware of everything that is going on around us.

 

To me this is the state of total wu wei. This is a rare event because most of us have places to go and things to do. This requires mindfulness (and intention). What can I call it? Living in "Yu"? (My Chinese speaking/reading friends might help me out here.)

 

I speak of Chuang Tzu's guidance for mindless meditation. To me, this is an excellent process for attaining the state of wu wei. Awareness without intention but responding (or not) based on external conditions in an intuitive manner (without intent).

So mindfulness has to come first?

 

Now, you're ex-military, right? So this makes even more sense. I bring this up here but will probably stop and continue in PM as I'm about to derail lol.

 

More to the point, military, martial arts, sports ALL have that in common. The need to focus. Same with entrepreneurs, those that chop up Oxes....woah...WAIT!

 

OK Chuang Tzu needs reading again!

[Marblehead]

Is that what ZZ meant by "forgot my body"....???

In my opinion and understanding, Yes.

[Marblehead]

So mindfulness has to come first?

 

Now, you're ex-military, right? So this makes even more sense. I bring this up here but will probably stop and continue in PM as I'm about to derail lol.

 

More to the point, military, martial arts, sports ALL have that in common. The need to focus. Same with entrepreneurs, those that chop up Oxes....woah...WAIT!

 

OK Chuang Tzu needs reading again!

To your first question: Yes.

 

Yes, we need learn first how to be mindful. With time and practice it becomes natural. Natural enough that it (whatever) is done almost instinctually. Now we can practice being aware while being mindful, that is, aware of all esle that is going on while concentrating on the job at hand. After this has become more or less natural we can become mindless. That is, when there is nothing that needs be done we do nothing yet are still fully aware of everything that is going on around us.

 

NO, I'm not there very often but I know how it works. Hehehe.

[TheExaltedRonin]

Well the multiple spots of forgetting the body indicate to NOT focus attention towards it.

 

It actually speaks of forgetting oneself.

 

But marblehead I believe our argument lies in different translations of mindfulness.

 

When he speaks of witnessing these things these animals, it appears they are just existing-not thinking. No mind.

 

Thoughts?

[Marblehead]

Well the multiple spots of forgetting the body indicate to NOT focus attention towards it.

 

It actually speaks of forgetting oneself.

 

But marblehead I believe our argument lies in different translations of mindfulness.

 

When he speaks of witnessing these things these animals, it appears they are just existing-not thinking. No mind.

 

Thoughts?

Thoughts? Sure, I have some. Too many oftentimes.

 

I will agree that we have a different understanding of mindfulness. Not a problem, IMO.

 

Forgetting one's self would be dangerous, I think. Without a body I am nothing.

 

 

I doubt Chuang Tzu would attribute thinking to any of the critters in the story. He was observing the processes of those critters and he failed to mind the processes of the human animal.

[TheExaltedRonin]

I don't think its a problem but where our misunderstanding lies when we talk.

[Marblehead]

I don't think its a problem but where our misunderstanding lies when we talk.

But eventually I will learn you so I know how you use certain concept words. (I'm a slow learner though so don't expect miracles. Well, I don't do miracles anyhow.)

[Rara]

 

When he speaks of witnessing these things these animals, it appears they are just existing-not thinking. No mind.

 

Thoughts?

Yeah, my understanding is complacency. Had they have maintained mindfulness, their mistakes wouldn't have occurred.

 

There is a stage when we practice and concentrate on something so much, that we no longer need to be mindful of it, as we do it automatically. If I can copy and paste it on my phone, I will grab something I wrote earlier in a message that explains this more from my personal way of being.

[Rara]

Ok, here it is...

 

"I too always have tasks. For quite different reasons. Constructing my next steps in career is always happening around the work itself. Otherwise I'm cooking, cleaning, meditating, exercising, kung fu-ing All these things benefit from being mindful...and are pointless if I can't be bothered on a certain day, as performing tasks mindlessly just doesn't get them done to a satisfactory standard, and can even lead to damage. Unless they are easy tasks, where you rightly mention, mindfulness isn't needed so much."

 

The easy tasks I speak of are walking around the house, as an example. I can get up and do it on autopilot with a small chance of tripping up of walking into things. So I can go with the flow mindlessly when walking, and enjoy looking at my surroundings.

[C T]

Sorry. I don't think in Buddhist.

 

In Taoism, when the shoes fit the shoes are forgotten. When the belt fits the belt is forgotten.

 

And to carry this forward: when our inner essence fits our external conditions our external conditions are forgotten.

 

I use "mindfulness" synonymously with "awareness".

I would say in buddhist practice, the implications are similar (in reference to the analogies re: fitting shoes and belt being forgotten). This could also point to reaching and maintaining the state of being untroubled by mundane activities, even in the midst of hectic-ness.

 

In my practice, mindfulness is understood as developing a keen awareness so that whenever possible, we know how to think, speak and act appropriately, and to try and recognize those moments when distractions occur, those instances where we could lose track of staying present by the mind doing its own thing and wandering off in all directions.

 

Those who dont do mindfulness would not have the necessary ability to notice when this happens, and so, their minds are always subject to the lesser habits, which then usually give rise to desire and aversion, both of which, in buddhist speak, means to be torn by dualistic tendencies. Without desire and aversion, there is actually no suffering, so thats why sometimes we say suffering is an illusion.

 

In a nutshell, the practice of mindfulness, in my tradition, is the simple act of knowing when we are beginning to get enmeshed in dualistic tendencies, either from our thoughts, our speech, or from our actions ~ and with practice, the awareness of this becomes sharper and sharper, like an artisan who continuously hones his favourite blade, again and again, even though its already quite sharpened, and yet he takes pain to maintain the sharpness indefinitely because that is the intrinsic nature of what a good blade is supposed to be.

 

In the beginning stages, when mindfulness is still not fully stable, we practice noticing distractions after the fact. Then, as we make progress, we can see the arisings of delusion and distractions as they occur, and later, in the perfecting stages, we fully comprehend our habitual responses, and in so doing, learn to anticipate when such occurrences could arise in lieu of what we are exposed to at each given time, and this anticipative ability becomes like a buffer zone which gives us space to notice negativity before it hits, and also, gives us time to choose a wiser, more practical response to situations. This then would be the ultimate fruition of a mind full of awareness and potential.

Edited March 12, 2014 by C T

[Marblehead]

I can't just "Like" that post. I must speak to it.

 

Excellent post. And excellent philosophy as well.

 

You have spoke to "self mindfulness". And it is true, if we do not have "self mindfulness" we will not be able to see life in its trueness but our pictures will be distorted by the falseness of our perceptions.

 

"Know thyself." No better advice has ever been given.

 

And in your post you also spoke indirectly of watching over our emotions. Our emotions will get us into so much trouble. (I know this for a fact.)

 

And indeed, when we attain "self mindfulness" it is relatively easy for us to be mindful and aware of our external conditions.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Marblehead

[doc benway]

So when practicing flow what is one supposed to do with their thoughts according to Lao Tzu? Let them pass as clouds do in the sky?

My sincere apologies to anyone I might offend by this but, in all honesty, I think the old bastard might tell us to stick our thoughts up our ass and laugh like a madman as he rode away on his ox….

 

 

I would say in buddhist practice, the implications are similar (in reference to the analogies re: fitting shoes and belt being forgotten). This could also point to reaching and maintaining the state of being untroubled by mundane activities, even in the midst of hectic-ness.

 

In my practice, mindfulness is understood as developing a keen awareness so that whenever possible, we know how to think, speak and act appropriately, and to try and recognize those moments when distractions occur, those instances where we could lose track of staying present by the mind doing its own thing and wandering off in all directions.

 

Those who dont do mindfulness would not have the necessary ability to notice when this happens, and so, their minds are always subject to the lesser habits, which then usually give rise to desire and aversion, both of which, in buddhist speak, means to be torn by dualistic tendencies. Without desire and aversion, there is actually no suffering, so thats why sometimes we say suffering is an illusion.

 

In a nutshell, the practice of mindfulness, in my tradition, is the simple act of knowing when we are beginning to get enmeshed in dualistic tendencies, either from our thoughts, our speech, or from our actions ~ and with practice, the awareness of this becomes sharper and sharper, like an artisan who continuously hones his favourite blade, again and again, even though its already quite sharpened, and yet he takes pain to maintain the sharpness indefinitely because that is the intrinsic nature of what a good blade is supposed to be.

 

In the beginning stages, when mindfulness is still not fully stable, we practice noticing distractions after the fact. Then, as we make progress, we can see the arisings of delusion and distractions as they occur, and later, in the perfecting stages, we fully comprehend our habitual responses, and in so doing, learn to anticipate when such occurrences could arise in lieu of what we are exposed to at each given time, and this anticipative ability becomes like a buffer zone which gives us space to notice negativity before it hits, and also, gives us time to choose a wiser, more practical response to situations. This then would be the ultimate fruition of a mind full of awareness and potential.

Great post… I wonder if the ultimate fruition might be to reach a point where even the anticipation becomes unnecessary and duality simply self-liberates instantaneously without any us there to interfere. Sounds a bit like wu wei to me… non-interference… Curious how thought likes to play with projections about what it would be like without itself…

Edited to add… maybe it's because it misses it's mommy?

Edited March 12, 2014 by steve

[C T]

 

 

Great post… I wonder if the ultimate fruition might be to reach a point where even the anticipation becomes unnecessary and duality simply self-liberates instantaneously without any us there to interfere. Sounds a bit like wu wei to me… non-interference… Curious how thought likes to play with projections about what it would be like without itself…

Edited to add… maybe it's because it misses it's mommy?

Thank you, Steve (and MH too)... true gentlemen, both.

 

What you said is the ultimate/ultimate fruition ... when i wrote the above, i was approaching more from the angle of relative/ultimate, i think you know where i'm coming from with this afterthought.

 

A teacher (who wrote quite a few books i like) mentioned more than once that we do not really have to direct attention to the ultimate realizations; take good care of all the relative aspects of practice, he asserted, and the ultimate will manifest naturally, in due course ~ this, im thinking, is also another helpful approach in the uncovering process of Wu Wei, in addition to the excellent point you mentioned earlier.

 

Thank you for highlighting what i believe to be a common syndrome which used to plagued me before, which is, my mind playing good cop/bad cop with me... it would wreak havoc and often left me mentally/emotionally/physically challenged, drained and spent all at the same time. I think a few here can easily relate to that!