I don't believe the founders of daoism intended meditation...

[TheExaltedRonin]

To be as they are today.

 

I feel that the word meditation I'm Tue eastern sense does not mean to sit and clear the mind in x position for x amount of time.

 

I have found more cultivation and insight performing what Lao Tzu said the most of: natural flow.

 

As a recent practitioner of zen and Buddhism to their fullest extent I had a issue finding the essence that's required and or suggested for such meditations.

 

After branching to daoism I have found that meditation should be practiced and cultivated with all daily practices.

 

Washing hands, sleeping, web browsing, video games etc. It doesn't need to be a blatant sitting posture.

 

There certainly are benefits to the vast performances of traditional meditation however, the main being cultivating stillness. However one can still do this while performing a vast practice of arts and daily rituals.

 

Thoughts?

[C T]

Buddhist meditation is not just about sitting on the cushion, or behaving like a dummied rock. This is far from the truth. Ultimately, the aim is to reach integration: where formal practice and mundane activities become indiscernible, gradually but surely. Confidence is gained from periods of concentrated focus, and also periods of release, of allowing for spaciousness to take over.

 

One accomplishment shared by all maturing/matured Buddhist meditation practitioners is to be ok with whatever life throws in their direction. In stillness, or in motion, in serene or stormy conditions, only suchness prevails beneath the surface. Getting this taste of suchness means a lot, since it is a realization-based attainment of utter non-distraction, achieved thru the full allowing and surrendering to reality, that it is what it is. After the fact, then the notions of meditator and meditation is no longer importantly held to be separate entitlements.

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

Thoughts?

 

 

You should empty your cup, and lecture less.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Thunder_Gooch

[TheExaltedRonin]

Why lecture less?

[Thunder_Gooch]

Why lecture less?

I feel that the word meditation I'm Tue eastern sense does not mean to sit and clear the mind in x position for x amount of time.

 

Might as well read: "the best way to put out a fire is to pour gasoline on it"

Edited March 8, 2014 by Thunder_Gooch

[TheExaltedRonin]

When one pours gasoline on a fire he will eventually run out of gasoline.

 

When the fire grows it will spread.

 

Burning everything in its path.

 

Including my problems.

[thelerner]

 

After branching to daoism I have found that meditation should be practiced and cultivated with all daily practices.

 

Washing hands, sleeping, web browsing, video games etc. It doesn't need to be a blatant sitting posture.

 

There certainly are benefits to the vast performances of traditional meditation however, the main being cultivating stillness. However one can still do this while performing a vast practice of arts and daily rituals. Thoughts?

Definitely. My sensei would always say 'Don't leave your Aikido on the mat'. Same with a zendo. Sitting is a tool, an exercise, the pointer. Proper mindset, one that penetrates the subconscious and informs all of one's actions.

[Spotless]

In practice your theory does not work - at least I have never seen it work.

 

Typically trying to "meditate" while going about normal routines appears to work only if you are in a light trance - and trance is not something you want to cultivate - for most of us it is something you definitely want to avoid - particularly in a daily "waking" state doing the normal tasks of life. This is also true for most of us in meditation ( I say most of us because some here definitely think very highly of trance and I would prefer not to get into that discussion again).

 

In meditation, among a great many things, your body is allowed to be at rest - wherein you are practicing presence with it - and without your analyzer running interference. Your body begins to understand a partnership and it is no longer treated like the whipping horse. As the body relaxes it runs energies through its body that is generally reserved for sleep - this cleans out communication channels and creates food for the higher bodies. Refinement of the energies takes place and the body come to this oasis willingly more and more.

 

At a certain point it is the personality that begins to balk at meditation because it is it's undoing - hopefully both the body and the presence win through this struggle and don't get diverted with any one of a trillion ways to derail.

 

In the original post their is a kernel of consideration that is sitting there staring at us - it is not to try to meditate while we are washing our hands - but it is to try and be present in stillness while washing our hands - which has got to sound like the same thing but it is not.

 

(I believe I heard someone spontaneously combust)

Edited March 8, 2014 by Spotless

[TheExaltedRonin]

@spotless

 

I believe it tends to work just not in its traditional sense. I have been practicing it lately and had found a blog the other day that spoke of the same thing.

 

When performing wu Wei one loses its sense of opinion and harmoniously becomes centered. When this happens all action becomes effortless. I normally have to spend many hours a day (albeit my normal tasks) but it does eventually hit me.

 

When walking-i walk. When sitting I sit. When eating I eat. However, I do this all without thought.

 

No mindfulness no nonsense just doing. Thoughts do come and go but I take heed to some of Confucius's words and disregard the thought.

 

This is something I've been diving into though. As you can see from some of my other topics.

[Marblehead]

I am on TheExaltedRonin's side regarding this discussion.

 

My understanding is based on Chuang Tzu's discussion of empty-minded meditation. Clearing the mind so that we can be fully aware of our "now" moments. And it is my opinion that this will lead to a state of 'wu wei'. We aren't just sitting and meditating, we are living, doing things naturally, without the mind being filled with distracting thoughts.

[Thunder_Gooch]

When one pours gasoline on a fire he will eventually run out of gasoline.

 

When the fire grows it will spread.

 

Burning everything in its path.

 

Including my problems.

 

Or we can be silly, that works too.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Thunder_Gooch

[Thunder_Gooch]

and trance is not something you want to cultivate - for most of us it is something you definitely want to avoid -

 

 

Most people aren't looking for something real.

 

Most people are just wanting to keep themselves entertained in a spiritual sense through make believe and role play.

 

As such most people do want to avoid practices which use deep trance.

 

People who spread blatant disinformation have earned my contempt.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Countless different Qigong and meditation exercises exist. All teach the basic idea of using consciousness to go into the emptiness where thoughts ultimately cease or greatly diminish and sensory connections to our bodies fade. We and everything in our world are all from the emptiness and will go back to the emptiness. It is a state of pure energy where we are one with the universe. Our bodies naturally direct us to the emptiness. When we get sick, for example, the first place we go is not to the hospital, but to bed. When we sleep, we feel relaxed and peaceful. We bring our mind and body into the emptiness. Everybody does this automatic meditation without noticing it during sleep and periods of deep relaxation. Most of our daily energy blockages are opened and resolved in this way

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“You know how in meditation we slow down our breathing and our pulse? It’s because we move more and more into our yin consciousness.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I will enter total meditation—like the borderline between sleep and waking, okay?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“What is actual meditation like?” I asked.

 

“There are no thoughts and there is no sense of time. If you are

thinking, you are not in meditation. If you are aware of yourself, you

are also not in meditation. You must become like a baby in the womb,

there and yet not there. Meditation is like the borderline between

sleep and waking, between consciousness and unconsciousness.”

 

“Very difficult.”

 

“Not so difficult, Kosta. You stayed in meditation for long peri-

ods when you were an embryo and a baby, and you pass through it

now each time you drift off to sleep. You just have to remember how.”

 

Danaos, Kosta The Magus of Java (p. 82)

Edited March 8, 2014 by Thunder_Gooch

[Marblehead]

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I've been accused of that as well.

[thelerner]

In practice your theory does not work - at least I have never seen it work.

 

Typically trying to "meditate" while going about normal routines appears to work only if you are in a light trance - and trance is not something you want to cultivate - for most of us it is something you definitely want to avoid - particularly in a daily "waking" state doing the normal tasks of life. This is also true for most of us in meditation ( I say most of us because some here definitely think very highly of trance and I would prefer not to get into that discussion again).

 

In meditation, among a great many things, your body is allowed to be at rest - wherein you are practicing presence with it - and without your analyzer running interference. Your body begins to understand a partnership and it is no longer treated like the whipping horse. As the body relaxes it runs energies through its body that is generally reserved for sleep - this cleans out communication channels and creates food for the higher bodies. Refinement of the energies takes place and the body come to this oasis willingly more and more.

 

At a certain point it is the personality that begins to balk at meditation because it is it's undoing - hopefully both the body and the presence win through this struggle and don't get diverted with any one of a trillion ways to derail.

 

In the original post their is a kernel of consideration that is sitting there staring at us - it is not to try to meditate while we are washing our hands - but it is to try and be present in stillness while washing our hands - which has got to sound like the same thing but it is not.

Maybe not so much trance as one pointedness. Quiet mind, one pointed focus on what one is doing. Even in meditation one tries to stay out of mindless trance and into mindfulness.

[TheExaltedRonin]

Well this is a path- some need assistance (various forms of sitting meditation or neiyeh qi gong etc.) And some don't.

 

Since I've been practicing Buddhism and zen for a long time I naturally fit into what I am doing.

[Spotless]

Do understand I am not trying to take sides here nor am I stuck in the wording:

 

I wanted to point out something that I have witnessed many times.

 

Meditation is a practicing of presence that has a patina that is very similar to the practice of mindfulness (walking around presence)

that students often want to equate as the same thing and many times students will say things like "I meditate all the time".

 

We can look at this another way:

Please look up "how to meditate" or instruction on "basic meditation practice" in every tradition you know and in every translation in existence - their are not allot of enlightened masters out there teaching meditation as "a walking around during the day" practice.

 

The practice of presence during regular everyday walking around is very useful - particularly in advanced work - and their is no time like the present for advanced work. But it is confusing enough to work with our language to try to elucidate precisely what we are trying to imply. The mechanics of meditation are easily differentiated by the mere visual / actual manifestations that occur during meditation as opposed to very advanced mindfulness.

 

Perhaps you have been to this space and it can be a reminder:

Imagine -

You have just done an hour or more of Qi Gong, you are a regular meditator, meditating an hour or more at least several times a week. It is a beautiful day and you are being mindful as you are walking - feeling your feet and toes on each step, the air moving in and out of your nostrils deep into your lower dan Tien or your entire aura for that matter, listening to the sounds around you and witnessing the passing of thoughts through your mind. You come to a bench and sit, it is simply glorious, and you are taking it all in when suddenly you are drawn to close your eyes and be in meditation, the world closes for you inwardly and your body stills to a nothingness - you are in a space miles from only moments ago and you can feel the subtle earth and cosmic energies pervading your bodies, your magnetic centers become deeply enhanced and the columns of energy well up within, chakras sprout and thicken - your breathing slows to nothing and you sit in a stillness wide awake and yet surrounded by nothingness - and then a dog sniffs your leg and you open your eyes to find you have been in meditation fully present in your body for well over 45 minutes.

 

If we were to be having an argument with sides and you were to take the side that mindfulness was possibly more important than meditation for awakening - then I could argue either side and believe in both. Mindfulness is of very high value and the argument would go to the particular person for whom we are prescribing - meaning that for some meditation is more valuable and for others mindfulness.

Or that for some - some of the time its one and then later the other. Both are valuable but they are not the same.

 

I do not believe I am splitting hairs - this idea is often tossed into the ring by students - but not by teachers.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Spotless

[z00se]

I think for somebody more hot, a doing type, mindfulness is more useful, for a cooler type person energy meditation is more useful. Mindfulness is grounding, energy meditaiton is energizing, it all helps bring into balance. Somebody who is already balanced will do good with both. Infact a little of both is good for everyone, but more time spent on either depending on your particular type.

 

But it is true that depending on the direction we wish to travel, that is the direction we go. If we spend more time in awareness / mindfulness then that is what we will get good at, if we spend time with energy, again that is what we will get good at.

 

I think in the end it all just boils down to how would you like to feel, how do you want to live your life? Head in that direction and you will recieve all you ever wanted. After all the meditation, though it may be both within and without, is your own experience. Once you have the tools and a little experience you can make yourself feel however you like whenever you want... and what more could you want than that?

[TheExaltedRonin]

@spotless

 

I understand what you mean. However, when viewing meditation as a isolated practice one becomes separated from the essence of nature.

 

Now, isolated practice of meditation is only beneficial to those that are farther away from their true nature than others.

 

I ask of you to try for one day a simple but useful practice I personally have found good luck with.

 

Imagine starting the day with mindfulness- thinking continuously of the way you feel hear see etc.

 

After conducting this practice continuously for any amount of desired time, begin to separate yourself from those thoughts.

 

Act as if you were still performing the mindfulness practice-but cease thinking of the mindfulness. This is the easiest way to perform wu Wei in a western sense.

 

An example: I began walking. I felt the sensation of my body, the wind, and heard the cars and trees move simultaneously.

 

After twenty or so minutes you quiet your mind forcefully. Still conducting the mindfulness practice (in the physical sense) you begin to drift. You are now in complete awareness. Your aware of all the sensations sounds and smells etc. But no longer have a continuous strain of thought set on it.

 

In the book Relax, your already home by Raymond Barnett he speaks of his conducted travels to China. According to history mindfulness practice was integrated into taoism after the Buddhist sect was traveling across China.

 

Many sages adopted the practice and felt that it was necessary to live In the moment. Whether or not they used that as sort of a stepping stone to wu Wei or not is a completely different story.

 

Just my blinded rambling.

[SonOfTheGods]

Words start to take on different meanings here:

 

Meditation

Power

Enlightment

Tan Tien

Kundalini

Magick

 

 

 

Since the internet grew more popular, so did a lot of terminology.

 

Many things should have stayed "occult"- that is- Hidden.

 

Too mainstream- many things got mis-catergorized and went into the New Age box.

 

Some of the posts I read on this forum seem very confusing and new agey.

 

When someone is meditating- your brain should slow from Beta to Alpha waves.

Alpha = Gnosis

 

Some go lower to Theta.

 

 

I don't want to see anyone driving during "a daydream state"- though most do

 

 

When I am meditating- my mind is almost at zero point (almost, not quite)

 

My breathing and pulse appear non existant.

 

Once I am finished, the slightest movement causes my bones to pop- as if I have been in suspended animation.

 

When I meditate- I AM GONE.

 

This is MY OPINION.

[tendou]

 

 

 

Too mainstream- many things got mis-catergorized and went into the New Age box.

 

 

When someone is meditating- your brain should slow from Beta to Alpha waves.

Alpha = Gnosis

 

Some go lower to Theta.

 

 

I don't want to see anyone driving during "a daydream state"- though most do

 

 

When I am meditating- my mind is almost at zero point (almost, not quite)

 

My breathing and pulse appear non existant.

 

Once I am finished, the slightest movement causes my bones to pop- as if I have been in suspended animation.

 

When I meditate- I AM GONE.

 

 

 

This is MY OPINION.

 

It's like your body is totally asleep right? When you wake up from that state your body are stiff all over. Unlike when walking up from sleep.

 

Do you go to delta in meditation?

[TheExaltedRonin]

Upon further examination I have found a grinding flaw in the way that mindfulness and awareness are presented to westerners.

 

Many westerners hear the word meditation and or mindfulness. And many instructors describe this by saying to pay attention to the most minimal detail in ones life. Feel your toes, feel your socks, feel your shoes while walking etc.

 

Its a massive climb up hill. Instead, it should be full dedication to the action.

 

When walking walk (like many here have said, but for myself was quite difficult to understand), but don't create a step by step process. Simply focus 100% of your attention towards the action, not the minimal basic movements and physicalities.

[Rara]

Upon further examination I have found a grinding flaw in the way that mindfulness and awareness are presented to westerners.

 

Many westerners hear the word meditation and or mindfulness. And many instructors describe this by saying to pay attention to the most minimal detail in ones life. Feel your toes, feel your socks, feel your shoes while walking etc.

 

Its a massive climb up hill. Instead, it should be full dedication to the action.

 

When walking walk (like many here have said, but for myself was quite difficult to understand), but don't create a step by step process. Simply focus 100% of your attention towards the action, not the minimal basic movements and physicalities.

I would say there is benefit to both, but yes, I have noticed many here in the UK on midnfulness websites just hitting stalemates and getting confused due to this step bu step process. Teachers and words: most seem to be trying too hard to tick boxes, rather than explain things in a simple, clear way.

 

Put it this way. I never read anywhere in TTC or Zhuangzi about having to sit in full lotus for an hour a day. Nor did I see any words such as Meditation, Dan Tien, Chakra or mindfulness. Though there are hints...see my thread in the Taoist Discussion - TTC - "Lao Tzu and the belly" We discussed similar things...

[z00se]

Upon further examination I have found a grinding flaw in the way that mindfulness and awareness are presented to westerners.

 

Many westerners hear the word meditation and or mindfulness. And many instructors describe this by saying to pay attention to the most minimal detail in ones life. Feel your toes, feel your socks, feel your shoes while walking etc.

 

Its a massive climb up hill. Instead, it should be full dedication to the action.

 

When walking walk (like many here have said, but for myself was quite difficult to understand), but don't create a step by step process. Simply focus 100% of your attention towards the action, not the minimal basic movements and physicalities.

 

Haha, but it's mind training....

 

A bit like training to slam dunk a basketball ring. You don't just jump up and down all day long trying to reach the ring. You do some of that yeah, but you also do isolated leg exercises, balancing drills, sprinting, calf raises, etc, etc so that then when you put it all together you can jump higher than the basketball ring so that you can do some tricky moves on your way up there to fake out opponents and stuff and still slam dunk it in their face!

 

knowing in detail how every part of the body reacts and interacts gives you greater insight and hopefully a better final result. All the methods are good. Doing them is however is the most important =] This is where wisdom of a good teacher comes in, but you can figure it all out yourself and get a better understanding i believe, it just takes a hell of a lot longer and the guts or curiosity of trying a range of different new things.

[Rara]

 

Haha, but it's mind training....

 

A bit like training to slam dunk a basketball ring. You don't just jump up and down all day long trying to reach the ring. You do some of that yeah, but you also do isolated leg exercises, balancing drills, sprinting, calf raises, etc, etc so that then when you put it all together you can jump higher than the basketball ring so that you can do some tricky moves on your way up there to fake out opponents and stuff and still slam dunk it in their face!

 

knowing in detail how every part of the body reacts and interacts gives you greater insight and hopefully a better final result. All the methods are good. Doing them is however is the most important =] This is where wisdom of a good teacher comes in, but you can figure it all out yourself and get a better understanding i believe, it just takes a hell of a lot longer and the guts or curiosity of trying a range of different new things.

True that. When learning a skill, especially starting out, many things do need to be concentrated on.

 

But I believe the OP is talking more about the dangers of conforming to the idea of examination in close detail which then turns out to be self-sabbotage...

[Rara]

True that. When learning a skill, especially starting out, many things do need to be concentrated on.

 

But I believe the OP is talking more about the dangers of conforming to the idea of examination in close detail which then turns out to be self-sabbotage...

Over-analysing/being pedantic, I guess.