According to Lao Tzu and Zhuangzi what should be our train of thought All the time?

[Geof Nanto]

Is it about thinking or is it about learning the dance of de ….

 

A Song of the Dao (curtesy of Leonard Cohen)

 

Dance me to your beauty with a burning violin

Dance me through the panic 'til I'm gathered safely in

Lift me like an olive branch and be my homeward dove

Dance me to the end of concepts

Dance me to the end of thought

 

Oh let me see your beauty when the witnesses are gone

Let me feel you moving like they do in Babylon

Show me slowly what I only know the limits of

Dance me to the end of concepts

Dance me to the end of thought

 

Dance me to the wedding now, dance me on and on

Dance me very tenderly and dance me very long

We're both of us beneath the Dao, we're both of us above

Dance me to the end of concepts

Dance me to the end of thought

 

Dance me to the wu wei that’s asking to be born

Dance me through the curtains that our ziran has outworn

Raise a tent of shelter now, though every thread is torn

Dance me to the end of concepts

Dance me to the end of thought

 

Dance me to your beauty with a burning violin

Dance me through the panic till I'm gathered safely in

Touch me with your naked hand or touch me with your glove

Dance me to the end of concepts

Dance me to the end of thought

Dance me to the end of thought

[opendao]

This reminds me of the scene in the movie Camelot where King Arthur describes how Merlin taught him to 'think'...

 

He states a proposition: It is better to live than die... so why do people engage in wars ?

 

Merlin taught him to take the perspective of an animal...and Arthur describes being a Hawk.  

 

Flying above it all... and looking down, there are no boundaries that exist.  And Arthur goes on to muse that man creates boundaries which simply lead to divisions... and wars...

 

the dramatic contradiction between such naive thoughts and reality means that there are rules.

 

And humans are engaged in wars not because they want it or not, but because they are humans. It's innate. It's unavoidable.

 

Mind alone cannot overcome the law of duality. So Lao Zi and other Daoist sages didn't rely on mind. Thoughts can be more beneficial or less, but they can't break the rules people have to follow.

 

The only "train of thought" possible is to focus all thoughts on cultivating the Dao.

[dawei]

the dramatic contradiction between such naive thoughts and reality means that there are rules.

 

One can use the Zen saying of mountains before Zen, In Zen, and After Zen... Rules are Rules... There are no Rules... Rules are Rules.    So it depends on which side of the equation you perceive 'there are Rules'.

 

Flowing Hands has a shaman's life dedicated to cultivating Dao... and yet he can say, 'there are no rules'...   So it seems he is speaking from a perspective, which I picked up on but I suspect your on the other side of the mountain still.   Until one can embrace both, they are simply bound within one aspect.

 

 

And humans are engaged in wars not because they want it or not, but because they are humans. It's innate. It's unavoidable.

 

War in innate to Dao because Dao is the mechanism of the manifest world.  Man is an arising who has an innate of Dao but when Dao is lost we find various conditions which tend to unfold... and when Dao is more innate we see various conditions which unfold... it is all relative unfolding.  It is really all innate. 

 

Mind alone cannot overcome the law of duality. So Lao Zi and other Daoist sages didn't rely on mind. Thoughts can be more beneficial or less, but they can't break the rules people have to follow.

 

The only "train of thought" possible is to focus all thoughts on cultivating the Dao.

 

After you downgrade mind, you give mind the only 'train of thought' possible.... so this sounds like it is still bound by mind.

 

Forget mind.  Forget thought or train of thought.   If you get 'beyond the veil', it is only universal presence or consciousness or Light.  Soul and Spirit intermingle.  Past/Present/Future are simply one.  You can jump around in so-called 'time' because you know both sides of the mountain.

 

If your focusing.... your seeking somewhere beyond where you currently are.   

 

As an anecdotal story... on the third day of knowing me, my current wife exclaimed in great discomfort, "YOU HAVE NO RULES"...    In a moment, she not only got to a perception of me but she past a veil which had bound her...  all that she held sacred and true about life with its 10,000 rules... was suddenly shown to be in her mind.   Now here we are, polar opposites regarding "rules"... and happily co-existing as if there are none...and some..... and then none again... and then some again...  

[flowing hands]

Trying to be 'at one' with the things that are going on in ones life one can apply the rule of Dao, but then this is universal rules and interconnections. Making limits also limit experience which can limit ones understanding. The rules of nature are simple and interconnected; if there are going to be rules then they are the ones that we may seek. But what we should have in mind, is an open mind and an open heart, these allow us to have greater understanding of others and ourselves. If we set limits to our mind and our hearts so we are not likened to the Dao. It's rather simple really. A Daoist is not a robed person practicing Kung FU or meditation, a Daoist is someone who simply is, who approaches life with an ever increasing understanding of their own life and other lives and forces that influence those lives; therefore an open mind and an open heart are the key to being a Daoist.

It is so easy to get caught up with 'teachings', but part of the teachings if not all is to free ones self from these limits.

[Brian]

Thank you.

[opendao]

One can use the Zen saying of mountains before Zen, In Zen, and After Zen... Rules are Rules... There are no Rules... Rules are Rules.    So it depends on which side of the equation you perceive 'there are Rules'.

 

Flowing Hands has a shaman's life dedicated to cultivating Dao... and yet he can say, 'there are no rules'...   So it seems he is speaking from a perspective, which I picked up on but I suspect your on the other side of the mountain still.   Until one can embrace both, they are simply bound within one aspect.

 

I'm not about popular psychology where people believe they can change the reality by changing or stopping their mind. It changes nothing really, because it's just about one half of the equation (Xing). And the perception can go up and down without end: rules, no rules... Because there is no unity and stability yet (Xing+Ming). And by ignoring the reality we cannot force the reality to ignore us 

 

So I'm about another half, that you both skip (Ming).

 

Lao Zi: 

  Misfortune comes from having a body. 

  Without a body, how could there be misfortune?

 

Thus limits are set not by the mind. Mind just follows underlying energies.

Then limits are gone not because of changing the perception, but because the inner energy changes.

Can you transform Ming without rules? It's impossible. Can you do it by stopping mind? No.

There are rules and limits that help to practice, and those that are against the practice. That's for sure. 

 

But to teach to throw all limits and rules away would be a mistake.

[flowing hands]

The mind of course makes its own reality, how we perceive is down to many differing factors and many people do not share the same reality.

Lei Erh though would say to us 'rid oneself of all shackles of the body and the mind'. In true liberation enlightenment will dawn. But first one must spend time freeing the body and the mind; this may take discipline and may take rules and limits, but the end is to free oneself where there are no rules only those that the Dao has given us.

 

Part of being enlightened is to have true understanding and compassion; one cannot have either without real experience. To limit is to restrict ones understanding. I don't mean like well if I shot myself in the head I need to understand this, because that would be idiotic.

[dawei]

I'm not about popular psychology where people believe they can change the reality by changing or stopping their mind. It changes nothing really, because it's just about one half of the equation (Xing). And the perception can go up and down without end: rules, no rules... Because there is no unity and stability yet (Xing+Ming). 

 

I don't follow your path... so any talk of Ming and Xing is irrelevant to my path.  You can only apply it to those who attempt it.

 

My path is to directly interact with Light level/beings. Freely coming and going... visit them or them visiting me is but passing the veil without hindrance.  That is not popular psychology. 

[Taoist Texts]

Lao Zi: 

  Misfortune comes from having a body. 

  Without a body, how could there be misfortune?

 

Interesting how the LZ lines get parroted without any understanding. What does LZ say? He wishes to be a ghost without a body? He regrets having ever born into a body? By virtue of even repeating this nonsense ppl betray having no clue.

[opendao]

I don't follow your path... so any talk of Ming and Xing is irrelevant to my path.  You can only apply it to those who attempt it.

 

well, you don't follow Dao then.

 

The topic is about Lao Zi's legacy and its understanding of the mind training.

 

And Lao Zi says very clearly about Hung and Po, about Xing and Ming, about words, about rules, and about other things irrelevant to you.

 

My path is to directly interact with Light level/beings. Freely coming and going... visit them or them visiting me is but passing the veil without hindrance.  That is not popular psychology. 

 

it's possible to learn form shenxians, and the history knows such examples (very rare), but there are signs of that, and there is wisdom about the tradition (any, they all were very similar) after such encounters.

 

On this forum the number of such experiences is quite high, but so far nobody could even explain basics of Dao without popular mistakes, which shows the real sources of the knowledge of such "channellers": books and personal experience with the gui-spirits.

 

People become ghosts to see ghosts, but can a being from lower world teach how to ascend higher and become xian? No.

 

So let's be clear: shamanism is not Dao, there is a big difference in them. And Daoist schools actually treat all encounters with "light beings", "buddhas", "immortals" etc as a form of illusion. Real meeting is not like that even visual or by description.

[dawei]

well, you don't follow Dao then.

 

The topic is about Lao Zi's legacy and its understanding of the mind training.

 

And Lao Zi says very clearly about Hung and Po, about Xing and Ming, about words, about rules, and about other things irrelevant to you.

 

So the topic is infallible?   Quoting such dualist words from LZ... for the common folks to read... and follow...

 

I explained it in another thread: It is all just a reflection of the primordial, polar gender energies.. once they arise in you and you can interact in life with them arising, coming and going, and knowing their every movement... your just going to have to practice and use words to describe the Dao.

 

True, I don't follow Dao... that would mean a separation from Dao.

 

 

So let's be clear: shamanism is not Dao, there is a big difference in them. And Daoist schools actually treat all encounters with "light beings", "buddhas", "immortals" etc as a form of illusion. Real meeting is not like that even visual or by description.

 

That is not my path but you seem to be able to pronounce such things.  I'll leave Flowing Hands to comment as that is his path.

 

And you're stuck in what "schools" teach instead of what you actually experience.   When you actually experience it, let's talk.  When you can visit other dimensions, spirits, time, etc... then let's talk more as we can share experience.

[Geof Nanto]

These Daoist discussions are always learning experiences for me. I like to read what everyone has to say and research the topic too.  As the OP is asking about Laozi and Zhuangzi I think an overview from classical Daoism is helpful as a reference for our personal cultivation experiences. For me, such an overview helps clarify the various perspectives each of us is presenting. What follows is extracted from Komjathy’s The Daoist Tradition…..

 

The terms xing (innate nature) and ming (life-destiny, fate) were used synonymously in classical Daoism. However they later came to take on more nuanced and technical connotations, especially in the inner alchemy lineages. Here xing is associated with the heart-mind, spirit as well as divine capacities, while ming is associated with the kidneys, vital essence as well as foundational vitality and corporeality. For members of the classical inner cultivation lineages, xing and ming designate the ground of one's being, the Dao manifesting in/as/through one's own embodied existence. On some level, they are "fate" in the sense of one's innate and personal capacities, and what one must do in order to have meaning, purpose, and fulfillment. On another level, they must be actualized or expressed as embodied being in the world. They are both given and actualized.

 

RETURNING TO THE SOURCE

Apply emptiness completely;

Guard stillness steadfastly.

The ten thousand beings arise together;

I simply observe their return.

All beings flourish and multiply;

Each again returns to the Source.

Returning to the Source is called stillness;

This means returning to life-destiny.

Returning to life-destiny is called constancy;

Knowing constancy is called illumination.

(Daode jing, Chapter 16)

 

The Dao was pulled apart for the sake of goodness; virtue was imperilled for the sake of conduct. After this, innate nature was abandoned and minds were set free to roam, heart-mind joining with heart-mind in understanding; there was knowledge, but it could not bring stability to the world. After this, "culture" was added on, and "breadth" was piled on top. "Culture" destroyed the substantial, "breadth" drowned the heart-mind, and after this the people began to be confused and disordered. They had no way to revert to the true form of their innate nature or to return once more to the Beginning. (Zhuangzi, Chapter 16)

 

Here is a representative account of the loss of cosmic integration, of separation from the Dao. At root, one becomes disoriented through societal conditioning, familial expectations and obligations, and personal habituation. Such claims of course beg the question of how human beings, as manifestations of the Dao, originally lost their cosmic integration. From a Daoist perspective, the account of human disorientation is existential and psychological, not cosmogonic or theological. That is, it is about the human experience of being in the world, and the consequences of certain human activities. There is thus the following traditional Daoist statement: "Humans may be distant from the Dao, but the Dao is never distant from humans." That is, one's "separation from the Dao" is only apparent. Ultimately, separation is impossible.

 

But what about the question of benefit and harm, of morality and immorality? There are two primary Daoist responses. First, from a cosmological and theological perspective, there is no such thing. Terms such as "morality" are human constructs, ways of creating meaning and order in an impersonal universe [that is, they are rules]. Using a famous phrase from Chapter 5 of the Daode jing, everything in the phenomenal world is a "straw dog" (chugou), with straw dogs being effigies used in ancient Chinese ritual. On some level, we are simply sacrificial offerings in the unending decomposition and recomposition ritual of the universe. We simply participate in the unending transformative process of the Dao. Second, in the case of human beings, innate nature is innately good. To express this nature is to act with virtue. But this is not socially constructed morality, as in the case of Confucianism. Rather, it is the way in which one's innate nature naturally manifests, as a beneficial presence and influence. Such a condition has moral qualities from a conventional perspective but it is simply one's own innate nature, the Dao becoming present in human relationship and interaction

 

When virtue does not flourish, this is due not to the "presence of evil" in the world, but rather to widespread psychological and spiritual confusion. On the personal level, the primary sources of such confusion include sensory engagement with the world through the "passages" and "doorways" mentioned in the Daode jing passage above, and emotionality, especially negative, harmful, and inappropriate emotional reactions. This leads to a state of disorientation that is manifest in distinctions, categories, biases, and opinions emanating from one's own limited, egoistic viewpoint.

 

This Daoist description of disintegration is also a map for reintegration. The most important principle here is "returning to the Source" (guigen), a term that means attunement with the Dao. The tradition proposes various ways  to do this, but taking classical Daoism to its logical conclusion, it simply involves abiding in the ground of one's being. One accepts what is, and allows each being to unfold according to its own innate nature. With respect to religious discipline one trains oneself to have a positive and accepting view of oneself and others. Generally speaking, the ideal here is not becoming emotionless. Rather, it is to attain a state of "true joy," a calm contentment and buoyancy undisturbed by gain and loss, by the trials and tribulations of existence, or by fulfillment or frustration of mundane desires. It requires recognition of change as the one universal constant.            

 

"The sage penetrates bafflement and complication, rounding all into a single body, yet he does not know why—it is his innate nature. He returns to fate and acts accordingly, using the cosmos (tianxia) as his teacher" (Zhuangzi, Chapter 25)   [That is, he or she naturally falls in line with the laws (rules?) of the cosmos. Also of interest is how classical Daoism continually disparages the use of knowledge. However, we need knowledge to reach the state of non-knowledge.]

Edited February 4, 2016 by Yueya

[Taoist Texts]

So the topic is infallible?   Quoting such dualist words from LZ... 

They do not quote LZ;) they quote a wrong translation of LZ addled with their own fantasies. These guys dont have a clue as to what LZ is really saying. 'Misfortune comes from having a body' yeah right;)

[opendao]

I explained it in another thread: It is all just a reflection of the primordial, polar gender energies.. once they arise in you and you can interact in life with them arising, coming and going, and knowing their every movement... your just going to have to practice and use words to describe the Dao.

 

strange words again: what you're talking is Taiji, infinite Yin-Yang "coming and going". It's not Dao, it's not primordial. I'm talking about the experience, but even in texts you can find it.

 

True, I don't follow Dao... that would mean a separation from Dao.

 

??? from the experience of Dao practitioners such idea has no sense, nor support in text.

 

"Following Dao", "cultivating Dao" - such things are commonly used and it's the only way to stop separation from Dao.

 

And you're stuck in what "schools" teach instead of what you actually experience.   When you actually experience it, let's talk.  When you can visit other dimensions, spirits, time, etc... then let's talk more as we can share experience.

 

my experience or lack of thereof cannot make you understand basics of the alchemy...

 

You say that "path is to interact with light beings". But Lao Zi speaks nothing about it. His path is different. All Neidan lineages don't use it, they use other methods. And we can find similar ideas only in some religious Daoism, which was often a combination of folk, shaman and other things.

 

"Time, dimensions, spirits" - such things can be very different. It can be an illusion, it can be the yin world, it can be the Great Dao. You're discussing Dao here, but all your experience cannot be mapped into anything in Lao Zi's Dao. You're trying to imply some your experience that I probably don't have, but really it's about nothing. And your experience is not so great, and mine you don't know at all :-\

 

So, to paraphrase your own words, when you experience anything mentioned by Lao Zi, come back and share. Then we can discuss Dao schools, and what I'm "stick with", "repeating" and so on.

 

You know, if all Dao students repeat the same for thousand years, maybe it's better to listen?

 

They do not quote LZ;) they quote a wrong translation of LZ addled with their own fantasies. These guys dont have a clue as to what LZ is really saying. 'Misfortune comes from having a body' yeah right;)

 

Maestro, we're waiting for your explanations. Please reveal the truth, as many times before, so we can laugh, as many times before. The phrase is simple as is, the translation is bad as all other English variants, but sure you need to show off your confused ego.

[dawei]

strange words again: what you're talking is Taiji, infinite Yin-Yang "coming and going". It's not Dao, it's not primordial. I'm talking about the experience, but even in texts you can find it.

 

Text is irrelevant.  One uses words to give an understanding for here-and-now.  What is not Dao?   You claim to be judge of such things.

 

Can you visit light beings?  Pass through time?  Visit a dimension?    If not... then you are just an obstruction.

 

LZ doesn't talk to this as this is not the common folk experience.   That is why you can't understand it.

 

 

 

??? from the experience of Dao practitioners such idea has no sense, nor support in text.

 

"Following Dao", "cultivating Dao" - such things are commonly used and it's the only way to stop separation from Dao.

 

Again, drop the text.  If  your not One with Dao you are forever following and cultivating... keep going... 

 

my experience or lack of thereof cannot make you understand basics of the alchemy...

 

You say that "path is to interact with light beings". But Lao Zi speaks nothing about it. His path is different. All Neidan lineages don't use it, they use other methods. And we can find similar ideas only in some religious Daoism, which was often a combination of folk, shaman and other things.

 

My path.  I never said LZ speaks to this in a book. Only you interject that...  but LZ is a light being and you can visit him.   I have maybe a hundred visits with him and his lineage.  This is not a physical test of neidan practice.  That is a physical seeking.

 

I only speak to light practice; direct visit with deities.  So if Neidan doesn't use it, then that is just their absence of use.   I use direct Light. 

 

 

"Time, dimensions, spirits" - such things can be very different. It can be an illusion, it can be the yin world, it can be the Great Dao. You're discussing Dao here, but all your experience cannot be mapped into anything in Lao Zi's Dao. You're trying to imply some your experience that I probably don't have, but really it's about nothing. And your experience is not so great, and mine you don't know at all :-\

 

Ok, so share your experience with it.   Have you visited any light beings?  Dimensions outside of our own?  I'm eager to hear what you have experience in this regard?  I asked for common experiences to continue our talk.

 

 

 

So, to paraphrase your own words, when you experience anything mentioned by Lao Zi, come back and share. Then we can discuss Dao schools, and what I'm "stick with", "repeating" and so on.

 

You know, if all Dao students repeat the same for thousand years, maybe it's better to listen?

 

students are just following... like a hampster on a wheel...  just share light experience if you want to compare.

 

Maestro, we're waiting for your explanations. Please reveal the truth, as many times before, so we can laugh, as many times before. The phrase is simple as is, the translation is bad as all other English variants, but sure you need to show off your confused ego.

 

Go Light... then you'll understand... until then... there will be lots of posts... 

[Taoist Texts]

Maestro, we're waiting for your explanations. 

 

Hehe, they want free lessons now.

[opendao]

Text is irrelevant.  One uses words to give an understanding for here-and-now.  What is not Dao?   You claim to be judge of such things.

 

Text is irrelevant for you, because you have no relation to any tradition. You're not initiated. Outsider. Profane. That's ok, there are zillion of new-age hipsters doing the same, so you're in a good company under a flag "no rules, no texts, just light and no mind".

 

LZ doesn't talk to this as this is not the common folk experience.   That is why you can't understand it.

 

It has no sense, but why you can't understand "common folk experience" described by Lao Zi then?

 

It's clear that the logic is corrupted, you don't understand Lao Zi in spite of your "multiple visits", and Lao Zi did talk about experience not common at all to ordinary people. "My words are easy to understand and easy to follow, but in the world there is no one who can do that". "Common folk experience"? LOL

 

Sometimes it's better to follow rules and read text instead of "visiting" god knows who.

 

Again, drop the text.  If  your not One with Dao you are forever following and cultivating... keep going... 

 

haha, when you're one with Dao, you cannot be in this world and write on forums... You see again you don't know basics. You think you're one with Dao, but from those who are one with Dao you're one with illusions.

 

And it's not some subjective internal opinion, it is something visible outside. For anyone.

 

That the difference between Dao and various deviations. If you're not an "obstruction", and "full of light", then stop a tiger, stop cold, stop death! You cannot? But Lao Zi could! "Common folk experience"? Dawei, it's hilarious.

 

My path.  I never said LZ speaks to this in a book. Only you interject that...  but LZ is a light being and you can visit him.   I have maybe a hundred visits with him and his lineage.  This is not a physical test of neidan practice.  That is a physical seeking.

 

Whatta? no more questions then.

 

It seems to be like a virus, nowadays even hamsters visit Lao Zi but can't understand what Lao Zi did write... In the world of alive traditions such "experiences" are categorized as sickness. 

 

Take care!

-------------------

 

Going back to the topic, I can only say that intellectual work is very necessary in the beginning to avoid such sickness as described in details above.

 

Mind has to think clear and logically. Even sceptical sometimes.

 

Any attempts to skip this phase and "free" the mind and be "one with things" just lead to a bad fortune. In ancient schools, there are techniques to restore proper mind work. Moreover, with the practice, mind can work better and better. Because of Yuan Qi.

 

p.s. "There is no xian who didn't read texts".

[opendao]

   

"The sage penetrates bafflement and complication, rounding all into a single body, yet he does not know why—it is his innate nature. He returns to fate and acts accordingly, using the cosmos (tianxia) as his teacher" (Zhuangzi, Chapter 25)   [That is, he or she naturally falls in line with the laws (rules?) of the cosmos. Also of interest is how classical Daoism continually disparages the use of knowledge. However, we need knowledge to reach the state of non-knowledge.]

 

Right. Knowledge can be different at different stages. Mind can be different. Daoist use terms like "Dao Mind" (daoxin) to highlight the difference. All people have it, we call it "intuition". But usually we don't listen to this "direct knowledge", because its voice is very weak, it's not reliable, so we got used to use our ordinary mind (shishen).

 

Daoist approach is to change this ordinary way, reverse it and make "Dao Mind" the ruler by empowering it using Ming. Then the sage just "sees" directly changes of the Cosmos around and inside and act accordingly, without thinking.

 

But to reach this level and make it constant, there are many things where ordinary mind has to discipline itself, get knowledge what to do, and do it according to rules, taught by a teacher, who sees them directly.

[Taoist Texts]

 stop a tiger, stop cold, stop death! You cannot? But Lao Zi could! "

  nowadays even hamsters visit Lao Zi but can't understand what Lao Zi did write...  

Hamsters are not readers. Hamsters are writers.

[flowing hands]

well, you don't follow Dao then.

 

The topic is about Lao Zi's legacy and its understanding of the mind training.

 

And Lao Zi says very clearly about Hung and Po, about Xing and Ming, about words, about rules, and about other things irrelevant to you.

 

 

it's possible to learn form shenxians, and the history knows such examples (very rare), but there are signs of that, and there is wisdom about the tradition (any, they all were very similar) after such encounters.

 

On this forum the number of such experiences is quite high, but so far nobody could even explain basics of Dao without popular mistakes, which shows the real sources of the knowledge of such "channellers": books and personal experience with the gui-spirits.

 

People become ghosts to see ghosts, but can a being from lower world teach how to ascend higher and become xian? No.

 

So let's be clear: shamanism is not Dao, there is a big difference in them. And Daoist schools actually treat all encounters with "light beings", "buddhas", "immortals" etc as a form of illusion. Real meeting is not like that even visual or by description.

 

 

Lets deal with some common errors that you are making. Shamanism was the beginning of traditional Daoism that is why firstly the yin/yang symbol comes from shamanism. Secondly the very word 'Dao' comes from two pictograms, a shamans head wearing deer antlers and a foot. Being a trained and baptised shaman I can tell you on good authority that Immortals are real, living, energy beings who can materialize themselves at will and I have experienced meetings with such masters in the flesh. What you are talking about as 'Immortals as illusions' is just a particular sect or sects. But many sects of Daoism believe and know the opposite and their practice is all about self cultivation to become an Immortal and to communicate with Immortals and spirits. I have not had a human teacher, yet I have been a nationally awarded Kung Fu master, been a judge at the national championships and my students won medals in the forms. So who taught me? Was it just an illusion? 

 

Everybody follows Dao, everybody is a Daoist by the very nature of what Dao is.

[Marblehead]

Interesting how the LZ lines get parroted without any understanding. What does LZ say? He wishes to be a ghost without a body? He regrets having ever born into a body? By virtue of even repeating this nonsense ppl betray having no clue.

It is saying that we have a body and therefore we must have concern for it and take care of it.  My opinion.

 

Afterall, there was no "I" until there was a body.  No body, no "I".

[dawei]

Text is irrelevant for you, because you have no relation to any tradition. You're not initiated. Outsider. Profane. That's ok, there are zillion of new-age hipsters doing the same, so you're in a good company under a flag "no rules, no texts, just light and no mind".

 

 My basic point above was that 'text' does not define me nor bind me... neither does a school of thought.  My path has always been one of letting go.  I've had great teachers and masters along the way.   Sometimes very straightforward and sometimes it just sunk in with very little. But it has always lead me to the next level of letting go as that seems most natural to me.   You can twist that too as you want, and call it whatever names you want, and I'm ok with that.  Your path is your path.  Be well on that.

[Taoist Texts]

It is saying that we have a body and therefore we must have concern for it and take care of it.  My opinion.

 

Afterall, there was no "I" until there was a body.  No body, no "I".

right but... is having a body a good thing or a bad thing?

[Marblehead]

right but... is having a body a good thing or a bad thing?

Good/bad.  Hehehe.  Again, duality and subjective.

 

No body, no "I", no worries.

 

No, I'm not suggesting suicide as a release of all worries.

 

Hear we have to rely on the words of Tao.  (Well. not really words but the processes.)

 

"I" was forced into life by being given a body.  This act was beyond my control.  It was a process of Tao.  Why should I think that I know what is better for myself than the processes of Tao suggest?

 

No, it's not good or bad.  It just is.  The process will reach full cycle soon enough.  No need to rush it.

[Brian]

 

right but... is having a body a good thing or a bad thing?

It is.

 

And it isn't.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Brian