According to Lao Tzu and Zhuangzi what should be our train of thought All the time?

[dawei]

p.s. "There is no xian who didn't read texts".

 

I've mentioned this to someone else but the important common denominator is not text... one finds them retreating away because they can't grasp the text.  The important step is there is a master who transmits something.  After that two things can happen: The text is simple to understand in a way no one else does; and it is unnecessary as it is understood anyways.

 

Daoist use terms like "Dao Mind" (daoxin) 

 

Xin=Heart-Mind.    

 

It is the heart which ultimately connects all things.  The mind is more like the telescope.

[opendao]

Lets deal with some common errors that you are making. Shamanism was the beginning of traditional Daoism that is why firstly the yin/yang symbol comes from shamanism.

 

No. Shamans-Wu were absolutely different, there are no any reliable textual or archaeological proof to say what you're saying.

 

"Yin-Yang symbol" came very late, and not from shamans.

 

Traditional ancient Daoism, Huang-Lao Xue, has started with Huang Di and Lao Zi, then was changed into religion by Zhan Daoling and later by Wang Chongyang. No shamans.

 

The only widespread idea, applicable here, is tha Lao Zi was from the kingdom of Chu, and there were a lot of shamans in Chu. It proves really nothing.

 

Secondly the very word 'Dao' comes from two pictograms, a shamans head wearing deer antlers and a foot.

 

No, it's a wrong etymology. No shamans, no antlers.

 

Being a trained and baptised shaman I can tell you on good authority that Immortals are real, living, energy beings who can materialize themselves at will and I have experienced meetings with such masters in the flesh.

 

That's good, and I told that such encounters have signs, traces, and bring wisdom non-comparable to the ordinary intellect.

 

What you are talking about as 'Immortals as illusions' is just a particular sect or sects. 

 

I didn't tell that, you simply are not careful.

 

I told that nowadays many people claim they saw immortals, but such encounters leave no traces in them and their understanding of the tradition of shenxian-Immortals.

 

It means that their experience or an illusion, or communication with Yin world - world of ghosts and lower spirits. That's exactly what shamanism is all about.

 

But many sects of Daoism believe and know the opposite and their practice is all about self cultivation to become an Immortal and to communicate with Immortals and spirits.

 

And obviously I couldn't say anything opposite, because I'm from such lineages.

 

Yu Xian Pai is translated as "Meeting with Immortals", so this concept is quite important for this school.

 

But again you put in one row communication and cultivation, but the tradition is not about the communication.

 

I have not had a human teacher, yet I have been a nationally awarded Kung Fu master, been a judge at the national championships and my students won medals in the forms. So who taught me? Was it just an illusion?

 

Being practising MA for the entire life, I know you didn't have achieved much in internal martial arts this way. Because of the nature of transmission of skills. Being judge and winning medals have no relation to Kung Fu, and you would know it if you had a teacher...

 

Again, it's not an argument, because we're speaking about Dao cultivation and becoming an Immortal. The history knows very few examples of learning directly from shenxian without human teachers, and sure you can humbly say that you're the same as Huang Di or Zhang Daoling, but let's assume the opposite as more realistic.

 

Everybody follows Dao, everybody is a Daoist by the very nature of what Dao is.

 

That's another popular misconception about Daoism. If a person doesn't know how to "follow dao", and doesn't do it regularly, then such person follows the natural flow of things from raise to decline, from birth to the death. It's not about Great Dao of Lao Zi. Read Lao Zi, it's all in the text.

[opendao]

It is saying that we have a body and therefore we must have concern for it and take care of it.  My opinion.

 

Afterall, there was no "I" until there was a body.  No body, no "I".

 

Right. Simple. That's why Daoism starts with the body, without thinking "body is bad or good". It just is as a fact, and it needs a transformation. Again Lao Zi describes exactly that the body after the cultivation is different then ordinary. That's the way.

[opendao]

 My basic point above was that 'text' does not define me nor bind me... neither does a school of thought.  My path has always been one of letting go.  I've had great teachers and masters along the way.   Sometimes very straightforward and sometimes it just sunk in with very little. But it has always lead me to the next level of letting go as that seems most natural to me.   You can twist that too as you want, and call it whatever names you want, and I'm ok with that.  Your path is your path.  Be well on that.

 

You can name it "twist", but when person says "I'm visiting Lao Zi", there is no twist needed, everything is pretty straightforward: we're waiting for the wisdom of prophecy. So far nothing even close.

 

I've mentioned this to someone else but the important common denominator is not text... one finds them retreating away because they can't grasp the text.  The important step is there is a master who transmits something.  After that two things can happen: The text is simple to understand in a way no one else does; and it is unnecessary as it is understood anyways.

 

The role of texts by stages:

 

Before people find a teacher, they learn texts to find a teacher.

 

When they practice with a teacher, they learn from texts directly, because it's what teacher asks them to do. Because it's a norm in passing the tradition from roots to leaves.

 

When they teach, they use texts to explain Dao to people, who cannot read texts and understand them because of their low level of development.

 

-----------

Such thing, as understanding beyond words, "a way no one else does", cannot contradict the way the text is used in the tradition, where practical results are the only proof of correctness.

 

If people start speaking about something that contradicts the practice, we're waiting for practical proofs, comparable to the results, achieved in the tradition. So far nothing comparable to Dao and De.

 

Xin=Heart-Mind.    

 

It is the heart which ultimately connects all things.  The mind is more like the telescope.

 

Heart is Mind. What "connects things" is not Xin.

 

Btw, it's even in texts, it's a basic thing you need to know even before you start the practice...

[Taoist Texts]

  without thinking "body is bad or good". It just is as a fact,  

more of utter ignorance. these guys do not know the very basics

 

得道有四難，是那四難？一、人身難得；二、中華難生；三、明師難遇；四、真道難逢。

 

Obtaining Dao has 4 hardships: the human body is hard to get;  it  is hard to be born in China; an enlightened teacher is hard to meet; the true Dao is hard to encounter.

 

The true Taoists emphasize that the human body is the foremost blessing on the way; the false one treat it as a given. But still kudos to them, 1 out of 4 is not bad;)

[dawei]

Heart is Mind. What "connects things" is not Xin.

 

That is true in experience.  And is very Spirit too.

 

Btw, it's even in texts, it's a basic thing you need to know even before you start the practice...

 

I'm not one for 'practicing' this stuff when it comes and goes freely.   It is more like I just 'open my eyes and I am there'.

[dawei]

If people start speaking about something that contradicts the practice, we're waiting for practical proofs, comparable to the results, achieved in the tradition. So far nothing comparable to Dao and De.

 

forgot to comment:  

 

Don't hold your breath as i never claimed one particular practice or tradition nor any specific framework.  My energy path has always been multifaceted and allowing any tradition/practice to play out and be a part of my own.  Energy is much bigger than any one practice or tradition.

 

I simply follow the path of no boundaries.  And a part of that is being very accepting of anyone else's path as their own path.

[opendao]

more of utter ignorance. these guys do not know the very basics

 

得道有四難，是那四難？一、人身難得；二、中華難生；三、明師難遇；四、真道難逢。

 

Obtaining Dao has 4 hardships: the human body is hard to get;  it  is hard to be born in China; an enlightened teacher is hard to meet; the true Dao is hard to encounter.

 

The true Taoists emphasize that the human body is the foremost blessing on the way; the false one treat it as a given.

 

Well, some intelligent people cannot even do connections between these two phrases... Maybe they are just not intelligent?

For those who can't read, one more time: Lao Zi speaks about the necessity of taking the body into the consideration in Dao practice, not about "throwing it away" as some "researchers" imagine. The phrase above is about the pre-requirements for the practice, and the body is one of them.

 

There is no contradiction between them. It's impossible to use the body if there is no body.

 

Anything else you're confused?

[dawei]

more of utter ignorance. these guys do not know the very basics

 

得道有四難，是那四難？一、人身難得；二、中華難生；三、明師難遇；四、真道難逢。

 

Obtaining Dao has 4 hardships: the human body is hard to get;  it  is hard to be born in China; an enlightened teacher is hard to meet; the true Dao is hard to encounter.

 

The true Taoists emphasize that the human body is the foremost blessing on the way; the false one treat it as a given. But still kudos to them, 1 out of 4 is not bad;)

 

Interesting quote as Dao is not hard to encounter but if the other three pose any kind of barrier or binding issues, then it is true.   

[Taoist Texts]

Interesting quote as Dao is not hard to encounter

 

well may by for u it is not;)

but if the other three pose any kind of barrier or binding issues, then it is true.   

they do. a terminal barrier.

[opendao]

forgot to comment:  

 

Don't hold your breath as i never claimed one particular practice or tradition nor any specific framework.  My energy path has always been multifaceted and allowing any tradition/practice to play out and be a part of my own.  Energy is much bigger than any one practice or tradition.

 

I simply follow the path of no boundaries.  And a part of that is being very accepting of anyone else's path as their own path.

 

don't worry, I got your point. No path, no knowledge, full acceptance of any deviations. Not Dao, thanks to confirm again.

 

That is true in experience.  And is very Spirit too.

 

Xin is not Spirit, so I'm not sure what you're talking about again. 

 

I'm not one for 'practicing' this stuff when it comes and goes freely.   It is more like I just 'open my eyes and I am there'.

 

and you say wrong things after that... 

 

Interesting quote as Dao is not hard to encounter but if the other three pose any kind of barrier or binding issues, then it is true.   

 

let's better listen those who really encountered Dao :-\

[Taoist Texts]

Anything else you're confused?

 

Whenever their seminar selling business is slow they come out and attack other practices, as an ad campaign. Once a month they do that;)

[dawei]

don't worry, I got your point. No path, no knowledge, full acceptance of any deviations. Not Dao, thanks to confirm again.

 

 

Xin is not Spirit, so I'm not sure what you're talking about again. 

 

 

and you say wrong things after that... 

 

 

let's better listen those who really encountered Dao :-\

 

No Path = All Paths ;  Xin=Mind=Heart=Spirit=Dao

 

One can break things down, put boundaries around things, but it is all ultimately connected.   

 

As SFH suggests, it is all Dao in the end.

[opendao]

Whenever their seminar selling business is slow they come out and attack other practices, as an ad campaign. Once a month they do that;)

 

every time you have nothing to do you're trolling here showing your "utter ignorance" and "parroting" sacred texts you have no idea about. When you're bashed by own lack of knowledge, you start singing "greedy daoists" mantra, laying about me and the school I represent. You're poor. Spiritually poor. And there is no practice to heal you, which is kind of sad.

 

Anything else about the topic, or again nothing but trolling?

[opendao]

No Path = All Paths ;  Xin=Mind=Heart=Spirit=Dao

 

One can break things down, put boundaries around things, but it is all ultimately connected.   

 

As SFH suggests, it is all Dao in the end.

 

I've discussed it already. No, it's all chaotic and mixed up, such mentality leads the same way as other things go. Lao Zi taught how to go in the opposite direction.

[flowing hands]

No. Shamans-Wu were absolutely different, there are no any reliable textual or archaeological proof to say what you're saying.

 

"Yin-Yang symbol" came very late, and not from shamans.

 

Traditional ancient Daoism, Huang-Lao Xue, has started with Huang Di and Lao Zi, then was changed into religion by Zhan Daoling and later by Wang Chongyang. No shamans.

 

The only widespread idea, applicable here, is tha Lao Zi was from the kingdom of Chu, and there were a lot of shamans in Chu. It proves really nothing.

 

 

No, it's a wrong etymology. No shamans, no antlers.

 

 

That's good, and I told that such encounters have signs, traces, and bring wisdom non-comparable to the ordinary intellect.

 

 

I didn't tell that, you simply are not careful.

 

I told that nowadays many people claim they saw immortals, but such encounters leave no traces in them and their understanding of the tradition of shenxian-Immortals.

 

It means that their experience or an illusion, or communication with Yin world - world of ghosts and lower spirits. That's exactly what shamanism is all about.

 

 

And obviously I couldn't say anything opposite, because I'm from such lineages.

 

Yu Xian Pai is translated as "Meeting with Immortals", so this concept is quite important for this school.

 

But again you put in one row communication and cultivation, but the tradition is not about the communication.

 

 

Being practising MA for the entire life, I know you didn't have achieved much in internal martial arts this way. Because of the nature of transmission of skills. Being judge and winning medals have no relation to Kung Fu, and you would know it if you had a teacher...

 

Again, it's not an argument, because we're speaking about Dao cultivation and becoming an Immortal. The history knows very few examples of learning directly from shenxian without human teachers, and sure you can humbly say that you're the same as Huang Di or Zhang Daoling, but let's assume the opposite as more realistic.

 

 

That's another popular misconception about Daoism. If a person doesn't know how to "follow dao", and doesn't do it regularly, then such person follows the natural flow of things from raise to decline, from birth to the death. It's not about Great Dao of Lao Zi. Read Lao Zi, it's all in the text.

 

You really are a very arrogant and silly person who thinks they know about Dao but displays all the qualities of someone who really hasn't an idea about what you are doing or what you are saying.

My advice to you as a Holyman is to forget whatever you hold as being Dao for you really have not the slightest idea about what you are doing or the real teachings of Lei Erh Xian Shi.

 

According to you, you think you know it all. If this is your attitude, then stay away from Daoist forums and interacting with others, whats the point?

 

As far as I can see you have not grasped even the basics principles.

[Geof Nanto]

You really are a very arrogant and silly person who thinks they know about Dao but displays all the qualities of someone who really hasn't an idea about what you are doing or what you are saying.

My advice to you as a Holyman is to forget whatever you hold as being Dao for you really have not the slightest idea about what you are doing or the real teachings of Lei Erh Xian Shi.

 

According to you, you think you know it all. If this is your attitude, then stay away from Daoist forums and interacting with others, whats the point?

 

As far as I can see you have not grasped even the basics principles.

 

This sort of reply from someone who extols the virtues of great compassion leaves me almost speechless. I for one greatly appreciate the input and effort Opendao puts into this forum. It is excellent to read the perspective of someone engaged within a living Daoist tradition. 

 

I like reading everyone's posts here on topics that interest me, and am thankful for the diversity of perspectives.  

 

(BTW I have referenced this reply on another topic: http://thedaobums.com/topic/40414-may-all-beings-be-happy/?p=672416 )

[opendao]

You really are a very arrogant and silly person who thinks they know about Dao but displays all the qualities of someone who really hasn't an idea about what you are doing or what you are saying.

My advice to you as a Holyman is to forget whatever you hold as being Dao for you really have not the slightest idea about what you are doing or the real teachings of Lei Erh Xian Shi.

 

According to you, you think you know it all. If this is your attitude, then stay away from Daoist forums and interacting with others, whats the point?

 

As far as I can see you have not grasped even the basics principles.

 

You got arguments, try to prove your claims have any foundations. So far just childish emotions and lame advices.

 

So what about

"yin-yang symbol coming from shamans"?

"shamanism as a root of Daoism"?

etymology of Dao with antlers?

 

I can add a bit more to make it more evident:

"being one with things" vs Ziran?

"everything is Dao" vs "it's not the Great Dao"?

 

If you have wisdom - prove it. If you learnt from "Lei Erh" (maybe Pu-erh?) in your dreams, then why all your Daoism is at "Tao of Piglet" level? Rhetoric questions, obvious answers, pu-erh as a teacher... Yeah, I had to take a look at your web-site. Sad story, "baptised shaman, national champion and incarnation of immortal"... Such a gibberish.

 

p.s. daoist forums are really full of brainwashed freaks, but there are good people who are seeking and they deserve to know that new-age shamanism is not the tradition of Dao. With examples, so they can do own research and compare. It works, I know very well. It's an experience I'd like to share )) 

[opendao]

This sort of reply from someone who extols the virtues of great compassion leaves me almost speechless. 

 

I got used, it is so common, many "enlightened" folks can't accept that what they've done and promoted all their life has no practical sense and has no relation to any spiritual tradition they are claiming to be a part of... Usually it's very sad (and gives no pleasure) to discuss all the mistakes they make, but "the truth is not a sweet remedy".

 

If we take a look in the history of Daoism, we can see that many great teachers had to reveal misconceptions so people can see the Way. It seems such dirty work is unavoidable if we care about people and want to help them to get out of the fog of arrogance...

Edited February 5, 2016 by opendao

[Marblehead]

My, my!  Such emotions!  In the presence of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu!!!

[Jonesboy]

I got used, it is so common, many "enlightened" folks can't accept that what they've done and promoted all their life has no practical sense and has no relation to any spiritual tradition they are claiming to be a part of... Usually it's very sad (and gives no pleasure) to discuss all the mistakes they make, but "the truth is not a sweet remedy".

 

If we take a look in the history of Daoism, we can see that many great teachers had to reveal misconceptions so people can see the Way. It seems such dirty work is unavoidable if we care about people and want to help them to get out of the fog of arrogance...

Are you one of those great teachers?

[Taoist Texts]

p.s. daoist forums are really full of brainwashed freaks,  

 

Some time ago he likened the members of this forum  to  barking dogs. I donno if this is an improvement.

[Brian]

 

Some time ago he likened the members of this forum to barking dogs. I donno if this is an improvement.

Personally, I'm a barking freak.

[Marblehead]

 I don't bark.  You get no prior warning.

[opendao]

Are you one of those great teachers?

 

Your sarcasm is taken, but the point wasn't about me. My small role is just to translate and explain as much as I can.

 

Some time ago he likened the members of this forum  to  barking dogs. I donno if this is an improvement.

 

Haha, no improvement for you. Things have to be defined, good and evil have to be separated, mind has to be clear about their difference... How else to define your "speech"? And I really love your last cry here:

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/39346-misconceptions-of-qigong-neidan-alchemy/?p=669962

 

"direct connections between Daodejing and neidan are ignorant fabrications. While the greed and incompetence of the neidan entrepreneurs are certainly to be blamed, but the real reason for their inanities is deeper：They are not Chinese".

 

Not barking? Well, then what it is? Do you think anybody can respect you for such BS?

 

Btw, you are Chinese as much as I'm a ballerina... I'm about the mindset.